Hey chris,
I see your point and usually I'm the first to cry "no" when someone starts with
"there is no tool out there so perhaps we should...".
As I'm currently maximally involved in different projects I do not dare to
offer any help on daffodil (head is already full) but of course I would +1 such
an effort as it's the cleaner and also more sustainable way.
Julian
Am 09.01.19, 18:59 schrieb "Christofer Dutz" <christofer.d...@c-ware.de>:
Well I thought that went could use what's already there as I was expecting
us but to be the first. But I haven't found an option that works.
Of course whipping up a coffee generator is quite simple (done it loads of
times) but you have to come up with the serialisation for all supported
languages ourself. I wanted to avoid that, cause it's a lot of work.
I think we should do a little more evaluating. If we don't find anything
well go down that path.
But having plugins used in a build that are also part of the build itself
introduces more issues. So perhaps becoming involved in the daffodil project
and adding a code generator there is the better option. (Code generator in
Daffodil and generation templates here)
Chris
Outlook for Android<https://aka.ms/ghei36> herunterladen
________________________________
From: Julian Feinauer <j.feina...@pragmaticminds.de>
Sent: Wednesday, January 9, 2019 6:46:14 PM
To: dev@plc4x.apache.org
Subject: Re: Antwort: Re: Antwort: Re: Antwort: Re: Antwort: Re: Anyone got
experience with "protocol buffers" or DFDL (for generation of the message
(de)serialization code)?
Okay, I see...
When I learned something, that tooling is really important, and it makes me
a bit of sorrows that DFDL is not there yet.
Do I take things too simple if we would just starting using something like
json (or xml, as I think chris likes xml better) to define these messages and
then implement a (very simple) converter to the class format?
Shouldn’t this be doable?
Of course there's still the lack of a Maven Plugin but I think this could
be made easily (????) if its just invocing a method (or we do something like
ant task voodoo to invoke it via CMD).
But at least we would have nice syntax highlighting and such stuff and
could rely on Jackson to get the files to a Java Input (and in case of xml we
could also do validation directly and generate nice HTML documentatsions via
xlst).
Am I missing something or take things too simple?
Best
Julian
Am 09.01.19, 18:26 schrieb "Christofer Dutz" <christofer.d...@c-ware.de>:
Hi Julian,
Yes exactly ... Unfortunately the messages are composed of different
types of structures. Header, parameters of different type and length, payloads
of different type. But in general, yes
Chris
Outlook for Android<https://aka.ms/ghei36> herunterladen
________________________________
From: Julian Feinauer <j.feina...@pragmaticminds.de>
Sent: Wednesday, January 9, 2019 6:16:01 PM
To: dev@plc4x.apache.org
Subject: Re: Antwort: Re: Antwort: Re: Antwort: Re: Antwort: Re: Anyone
got experience with "protocol buffers" or DFDL (for generation of the message
(de)serialization code)?
Hi Chris,
I'm not sure if I got it right, but what we would need is a way to
generate classes in multiple languages based on a message definition, or?
So we say something like
Bit, byte, byte, bit
And it generates a class (or struct?) which deserializes / serializes
to that, or?
Sorry for that (probably) dump question but I got a bit confused by
this protobuf / thrift approach.
Julian
Am 09.01.19, 17:49 schrieb "Christofer Dutz"
<christofer.d...@c-ware.de>:
Hi Sebastian,
Well in general the difference between a read and a write in S7 is
one byte value ;-)
The overall structure is somewhat identical.
Chris
Von: Sebastian Wiendl <swie...@bhs-corrugated.de>
Antworten an: "dev@plc4x.apache.org" <dev@plc4x.apache.org>
Datum: Mittwoch, 9. Januar 2019 um 17:21
An: "dev@plc4x.apache.org" <dev@plc4x.apache.org>
Betreff: Antwort: Re: Antwort: Re: Antwort: Re: Antwort: Re: Anyone
got experience with "protocol buffers" or DFDL (for generation of the message
(de)serialization code)?
The developer's struggle: Which foot to shoot yourself in. ;-)
I have no detailed knowledge about the protocols you want to
serialize/deserialize - maybe they are simple enough that the mentioned early
serialization features of Kaitai are sufficient. If not, I wouldn't recommend
using it.
Another aspect might be the anticipated distribution of read and
write workloads of a typical PLC4X application - if its mostly reads it might
still be worth a try, because you save a lot of (implementation) effort on the
deserialization which frees up resources for serialization or other things in
general.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Kind regards
Sebastian Wiendl
DSE / Digital Solutions Software Engineer
Phone: +49 9605 919 - 9341
E-Mail: swie...@bhs-corrugated.de
Internet: http://www.bhs-world.com
________________________________
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92729 WEIHERHAMMER
GERMANY
Management: Christian Engel, Lars Engel, Norbert Städele
Registered at Amtsgericht Weiden, HR B 1320
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Von: "Christofer Dutz" <christofer.d...@c-ware.de>
An: "dev@plc4x.apache.org" <dev@plc4x.apache.org>
Datum: 09.01.2019 17:09
Betreff: Re: Antwort: Re: Antwort: Re: Antwort: Re: Anyone
got experience with "protocol buffers" or DFDL (for generation of the message
(de)serialization code)?
________________________________
Hi Sebastian,
yeah … I asked in the Incubator list and they told me it would be
safe to use, if the output was not GPLed …
so I contacted the maintainer of the project and simply asked him.
He told me that the output would match the input license. So if our
definitions would be Apache 2.0, so would the output … so it seems we would be
safe and able to use that.
However he also told me this:
“That's great news! Please note, however, that serialization is in
its
early stages in Kaitai Struct, so it might be no exactly up to your
expectations.“
So I don’t know if we should go down that path … right now … :-/
Chris
Von: Sebastian Wiendl <swie...@bhs-corrugated.de>
Antworten an: "dev@plc4x.apache.org" <dev@plc4x.apache.org>
Datum: Mittwoch, 9. Januar 2019 um 16:46
An: "dev@plc4x.apache.org" <dev@plc4x.apache.org>
Betreff: Antwort: Re: Antwort: Re: Antwort: Re: Anyone got
experience with "protocol buffers" or DFDL (for generation of the message
(de)serialization code)?
Another thing to consider: Last time I checked Kaitai only
supported deserialization
(https://github.com/kaitai-io/kaitai_struct/issues/27). Might be inconvenient
to introduce another framework for serialization...
Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Kind regards
Sebastian Wiendl
DSE / Digital Solutions Software Engineer
Phone: +49 9605 919 - 9341
E-Mail: swie...@bhs-corrugated.de
Internet: http://www.bhs-world.com<http://www.bhs-world.com/>
________________________________
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Paul-Engel-Straße 1
92729 WEIHERHAMMER
GERMANY
Management: Christian Engel, Lars Engel, Norbert Städele
Registered at Amtsgericht Weiden, HR B 1320
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Von: "Christofer Dutz" <christofer.d...@c-ware.de>
An: "dev@plc4x.apache.org" <dev@plc4x.apache.org>
Datum: 09.01.2019 15:57
Betreff: Re: Antwort: Re: Antwort: Re: Anyone got experience
with "protocol buffers" or DFDL (for generation of the message
(de)serialization code)?
________________________________
The thing is that we would actually not be bundling that … the
compiler is only used during the build and not at runtime.
I am currently double-checking this with the others in the
incubator mailing-list.
So it’s not completely impossible … let’s see what the others have
to say about it.
But I agree … it does look as if it would suit our needs.
Chris
Von: Sebastian Wiendl <swie...@bhs-corrugated.de>
Antworten an: "dev@plc4x.apache.org" <dev@plc4x.apache.org>
Datum: Mittwoch, 9. Januar 2019 um 15:42
An: "dev@plc4x.apache.org" <dev@plc4x.apache.org>
Betreff: Antwort: Re: Antwort: Re: Anyone got experience with
"protocol buffers" or DFDL (for generation of the message (de)serialization
code)?
Yeah, i just checked... bummer the compiler is GPLed...
The project itself has some really good ideas how to handle binary
parsing. I used it prototypically in decoding a proprietary UDP message format
and it worked great.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Kind regards
Sebastian Wiendl
DSE / Digital Solutions Software Engineer
Phone: +49 9605 919 - 9341
E-Mail: swie...@bhs-corrugated.de
Internet:
http://www.bhs-world.com<http://www.bhs-world.com/><http://www.bhs-world.com/>
________________________________
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BHS Corrugated Maschinen- und Anlagenbau GmbH
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92729 WEIHERHAMMER
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Registered at Amtsgericht Weiden, HR B 1320
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Von: "Christofer Dutz" <christofer.d...@c-ware.de>
An: "dev@plc4x.apache.org" <dev@plc4x.apache.org>
Datum: 09.01.2019 15:37
Betreff: Re: Antwort: Re: Anyone got experience with
"protocol buffers" or DFDL (for generation of the message (de)serialization
code)?
________________________________
Hi Sebasitan,
thanks for that pointer … unfortunately I think we might be unable
to use this option as the compiler is GPLv3 licensed … that is a category X
license.
Even if the compiler is not bundled with our software or used at
runtime (will probably only need it at compile-time), I doubt we would be
allowed to use it.
But still I’ll look into it …
Chris
Von: Sebastian Wiendl <swie...@bhs-corrugated.de>
Antworten an: "dev@plc4x.apache.org" <dev@plc4x.apache.org>
Datum: Mittwoch, 9. Januar 2019 um 15:18
An: "dev@plc4x.apache.org" <dev@plc4x.apache.org>
Betreff: Antwort: Re: Anyone got experience with "protocol buffers"
or DFDL (for generation of the message (de)serialization code)?
Hi,
maybe the Kaitai Struct project (https://kaitai.io/) can help you
achieve this?
Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Kind regards
Sebastian Wiendl
DSE / Digital Solutions Software Engineer
Phone: +49 9605 919 - 9341
E-Mail: swie...@bhs-corrugated.de
Internet:
http://www.bhs-world.com<http://www.bhs-world.com/><http://www.bhs-world.com/><http://www.bhs-world.com/>
________________________________
[cid:_1_0DB11BC80DB117CC004E9C08C125837D]
BHS Corrugated Maschinen- und Anlagenbau GmbH
Paul-Engel-Straße 1
92729 WEIHERHAMMER
GERMANY
Management: Christian Engel, Lars Engel, Norbert Städele
Registered at Amtsgericht Weiden, HR B 1320
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Von: "Christofer Dutz" <christofer.d...@c-ware.de>
An: "dev@plc4x.apache.org" <dev@plc4x.apache.org>
Datum: 09.01.2019 15:06
Betreff: Re: Anyone got experience with "protocol buffers"
or DFDL (for generation of the message (de)serialization code)?
________________________________
Hi all,
Ok ... so protobuf seems to be semi-ideal ...
It seems that you can use it to model the structure of data.
Protobuf is good for generating model classes, parsers and serializers for a
given model ... the binary data-format is a result of this.
We want the opposite: We want to generate a model from a known
output data-format. In general this could be somehow achieved with protobuf,
however it is very difficult to produce the definition in a way that it is able
to parse a given data format.
For example simply outputting one byte seems to be problematic. I
was able to somehow hack an enum and provide some extension to allow providing
code values, but we don't have the level of control we would need to and the
result is not very readable.
I was able to quite easily setup the maven build to generate java
code for parsing and serializing a model ... so that was good.
DFDL looks as if it's ideal for describing the data format, however
I couldn't find tooling to generate model, parser and serializer from a DFDL
definition. I subscribed to our brother incubating project Daffodil and asked
on their list ... perhaps I have to get my hands dirty and implement the maven
plugin and code generators as part of that project ... I am hoping not having
to do that.
I'll check out Thrift in parallel ;-)
Chris
Am 09.01.19, 11:19 schrieb "Christofer Dutz"
<christofer.d...@c-ware.de>:
From my first look at thrift some time ago, that's more about API
and not about the actual payload, is it?
How about I try to do a protobuf version of the "s7-protocol" and
you give thrift a try? Another option would be the DFDL option.
Chris
Am 09.01.19, 11:13 schrieb "Julian Feinauer"
<j.feina...@pragmaticminds.de>:
Hi Chris,
we worked (and work) with Thrift [1] at several places.
Thrift is a strong contender to protobuf and both have their
specific advantages and disadvantages.
Perhaps I would prefer Thrift as it comes from the Apache
Ecosystm (and supports more langauges) but generally, Tim can say more about
working with Thrift.
Best
Julian
[1] https://thrift.apache.org/
Am 09.01.19, 10:45 schrieb "Christofer Dutz"
<christofer.d...@c-ware.de>:
Hi all,
while I’m currently working on refactoring the S7 driver to
a simpler structure so we can convert it to other languages more easily. A
colleague of mine pointed me to protobuf/protocol buffers from google [1]
From a quick look at it, it does seem as if it could suit
our needs quite nicely. I would like to try out if it’s possible to model the
S7 data structures in this way. If it works we could eventually quickly create
something that serializes/deserializes given data in any language …
It seems to be a lot simpler than the DFDL [2] I was
thinking of, so guess we have to find out if it has all the capabilities we
need.
Any thoughts?
Chris
[1]
https://developers.google.com/protocol-buffers/docs/javatutorial
[2]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_Format_Description_Language
