As mentioned elsewhere, the generic activators could go in a separate
bundle for OSGi use only. That applies to both this approach and Lukasz'
one.
// Niclas
On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 2:08 PM Christofer Dutz <christofer.d...@c-ware.de>
wrote:
> Hi Niclas,
>
> If your suggested path doesn't limit the framework decisions a user has,
> then I have no objections.
>
> Indiens I am not that deep into osgi to have a well founded opinion.
>
> The api will probably never be a pure api module as it contains the driver
> manager, which I wouldn't want to put into a separate module.
>
> Chris
> ________________________________
> Von: Niclas Hedhman <nic...@hedhman.org>
> Gesendet: Freitag, 8. Mai 2020 05:12
> An: dev@plc4x.apache.org <dev@plc4x.apache.org>
> Betreff: Re: SPI Module - OSGi Bundle
>
> Both approaches are independent of OSGi framework implementations, which is
> part of the beauty of OSGi.
>
> Lukasz puts more value on some dogmatic principle ("only interfaces in
> API"), whereas I have forwarded how an OSGi bundle producer is expected to
> provide it, and how an OSGi bundle consumer would expect to see it and the
> added benefit that default behavior can be overridden. Lukasz uses my own
> work-around (for JDBC drivers) to show me that is the way things are done.
> It is not, it was a necessary hack for that time to get around the legacy
> JDBC drivers out in the open, all of them without OSGi manifests.
>
> As I said, I have no skin in the game. Only providing independent advice,
> as a former OSGi expert and a keen interest in PLC4X.
>
> // Niclas
>
>
> On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 9:13 PM Christofer Dutz <christofer.d...@c-ware.de>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi folks,
> >
> > so if there is an option that doesn't tie our API and Drivers to a
> > specific OSGi framework, I would prefer that.
> >
> > Chris
> >
> > Am 07.05.20, 12:35 schrieb "Julian Feinauer" <
> > j.feina...@pragmaticminds.de>:
> >
> > I would say that there are arguments for both cases (as ist often
> with
> > OSGi, IMHO).
> > So I see them not as right or wrong but as to different styles or
> > approaches that I woudl leave up to you to decide.
> >
> > IMHO
> > Julian
> >
> > Am 07.05.20, 10:07 schrieb "Robinet, Etienne" <43...@etu.he2b.be>:
> >
> > Hi guys,
> > As I am really not an expert, which approach should we use?
> >
> > Etienne
> >
> > Le mer. 6 mai 2020 à 15:57, Łukasz Dywicki <l...@code-house.org>
> > a écrit :
> >
> > > Hey Niclas,
> > > While this code seems straight I don't think it is needed, and
> > valid in
> > > our case.
> > > Main benefit of extender and extender based patterns is
> > centralized
> > > processing of drivers.
> > > I am keen to keep only interfaces in the API packages and
> > bundles and
> > > move active parts of code (such base classes) to another place.
> > It is
> > > necessary to avoid creation of implementation dependency. And
> > that's
> > > what is in fact, promoted by shared activator class.
> > >
> > > Best,
> > > Łukasz
> > >
> > >
> > > On 06.05.2020 13:47, Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> > > > My suggestion was;
> > > > 1. Don't do the BundleTracker classes, and instead change to
> a
> > bundle
> > > > activator for each.
> > > > 2. Add the "Bundle-Activator:
> > org.apache.plc4x.java.osgi.DriverActivator"
> > > > to the driver META/MANIFEST.MF
> > > > 3. Do the equivalent for the Transports.
> > > >
> > > > public class DriverActivator implements BundleActivator {
> > > >
> > > > private ServiceRegistration<PlcDriver> reg;
> > > >
> > > > @Override
> > > > public void start( BundleContext context ) throws
> > Exception {
> > > > Hashtable<String, String> props = new Hashtable<>();
> > > > props.put( OsgiDriverManager.PROTOCOL_CODE,
> > > driver.getProtocolCode() );
> > > > props.put( OsgiDriverManager.PROTOCOL_NAME,
> > > driver.getProtocolName() );
> > > > reg = context.registerService( PlcDriver.class,
> > driver, props );
> > > > }
> > > >
> > > > @Override
> > > > public void stop( BundleContext context ) {
> > > > context.unregisterService( reg );
> > > > }
> > > > }
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, May 6, 2020 at 2:33 PM Etienne Robinet <
> > erobi...@apache.org>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Hi all,
> > > >> So concretely what changes should be done so that a
> > Driver/Transport
> > > >> declares itself his service? Beside the changes in the
> > manifest?
> > > >> Etienne
> > > >> On 2020/05/06 01:26:42, Niclas Hedhman <nic...@hedhman.org>
> > wrote:
> > > >>> Łukasz,
> > > >>>
> > > >>> the reason I say it is not very OSGi-y, is that the
> > principle of OSGi
> > > is
> > > >>> that the bundle handles its own service registrations. In
> > the case of
> > > >> JDBC
> > > >>> (I initiated that spec, and I am the founder of OPS4J as
> > well as Pax
> > > >>> subproject, 2005), it needed to address the problem that
> > JDBC drivers
> > > >>> existed and changing their build and/or manifests was
> > decided to be
> > > "not
> > > >>> viable". The approach there is a work-around for legacy
> > code, which I
> > > and
> > > >>> Stuart McCulloch basically invented. IIRC, this happened in
> > 2007.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> I didn't suggest that bundles require Declarative Services.
> > I suggested
> > > >>> that the "inside of the loop" in Etienne's code is put into
> > an
> > > Activator,
> > > >>> the code residing in the API and SPI bundles respectively,
> > and that
> > > each
> > > >>> driver/transport has a "Bundle-Activator: ....." in the
> > manifest
> > > >>> referencing respective activator. It is not more intrusive
> > than the
> > > >>> Export-Package, Import-Package that will be required
> anyway.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Advantages; It is more in the spirit of OSGi. But
> > importantly, the
> > > >>> driver/transport is now an active bundle, rather than a
> > library bundle,
> > > >> and
> > > >>> in theory the start/stop of a bundle could (there might be
> > other
> > > reasons
> > > >>> why not) turn it on/off in runtime. If special needs pop
> up,
> > maybe to
> > > >>> deploy for the OpenHAB project, it is possible to override
> > the
> > > >>> driver/transport with hacking the API/SPI bundles.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> And I can't see any disadvantages other than "need to
> rework
> > a bit of
> > > >> code".
> > > >>>
> > > >>> But I don't have skin in the game. Not in OSGi, not here,
> so
> > take my
> > > >>> recommendations into consideration or throw them away. I
> > just got the
> > > >>> impression that you didn't really get what I suggested.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> // Niclas
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> On Wed, May 6, 2020 at 4:57 AM Łukasz Dywicki <
> > l...@code-house.org>
> > > >> wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> Hey Etienne, that's awesome piece of work. I can test it!
> > :-)
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> I believe that's what Etienne code does it in a valid OSGi
> > way. And I
> > > >> do
> > > >>>> believe not because he mentioned me by name, but due to
> > below
> > > >>>> argumentation.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Proposed code uses extender pattern to grab specific
> > META-INF/services
> > > >>>> entries and register them in OSGi service registry. If you
> > will take a
> > > >>>> look on following line:
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>
> > >
> >
> https://github.com/apache/plc4x/blob/feature/osgi/plc4j/api/src/main/java/org/apache/plc4x/java/osgi/ApiActivator.java#L63
> > > >>>> you will find that bundle is an jar which changes state to
> > ACTIVE.
> > > >>>> Additionally that bundle classloader is used to find
> > services and that
> > > >>>> bundle context is used to register services. In the end
> > service which
> > > >>>> appears looks like one registered by driver/transport
> > module.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> The main point for above implementation is basic - getting
> > the
> > > standard
> > > >>>> PLC4X driver JAR working in OSGi without forcing it to
> > knowing too
> > > much
> > > >>>> about OSGi. Driver needs to ship manifest with
> import/export
> > > statements
> > > >>>> and that's it. Additionally driver does not have to have a
> > XML
> > > >>>> descriptor which registers service. Quite many third
> > parties might be
> > > >>>> supplying drivers without any or with limited knowledge of
> > OSGi.
> > > >>>> Do drivers have to be a service? Well, it they can still
> be
> > a valid
> > > >> OSGi
> > > >>>> service, registered using any other way! OSGi aware driver
> > manager
> > > uses
> > > >>>> OSGi services instead of static list own classloader to
> find
> > > >>>> META-INF/services entries:
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>
> > >
> >
> https://github.com/apache/plc4x/blob/feature/osgi/plc4j/api/src/main/java/org/apache/plc4x/java/osgi/OsgiDriverManager.java#L62
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> JDBC JARs are handled in such a way already in pax-jdbc.
> > Take a look
> > > >> here:
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>
> > >
> >
> https://github.com/ops4j/org.ops4j.pax.jdbc/blob/master/pax-jdbc/src/main/java/org/ops4j/pax/jdbc/impl/Activator.java#L72
> > > >>>> Same or very similar code can be found in apache-camel,
> > which brought
> > > >>>> hundreds of components to OSGi, so I believe their way can
> > be seen as
> > > >>>> high level guide.
> > > >>>> What Etienne did is a pattern implementation.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> With regard to capabilities/requirements - this is a
> > resolver puzzle.
> > > >> It
> > > >>>> relies on additional information. As an unbaptized,
> > non-religious osgi
> > > >>>> guy (I take it as a tool and not act of faith), I often do
> > skip it. I
> > > >> do
> > > >>>> find it useful, however quite often problematic and hard
> to
> > understand
> > > >>>> (yet another non-trivial syntax in manifest to follow). On
> > older
> > > >>>> runtimes capabilities are not even considered. For never
> > ones there
> > > are
> > > >>>> already existing namespaces:
> > > >>>> https://www.osgi.org/capability-namespaces-reference/
> > > >>>> including, one for services:
> > > >>>>
> > > >>
> > >
> >
> https://docs.osgi.org/specification/osgi.cmpn/7.0.0/service.namespaces.html
> > > >>>> My point is that capabilities are used to attest that
> > runtime will
> > > >>>> consist all necessary things in place after provisioning
> > operation. It
> > > >>>> does not say HOW given capabilities should be made, cause
> > resolver is
> > > >>>> hit before bundle gets active. It is a safety check. I'm
> > fine with
> > > >>>> having one, however we need to make it right to do not
> > narrow use of
> > > >>>> driver bundles only with our own extender.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Beside the point, I am not sure if plc4x-api is a best
> > place for osgi
> > > >>>> specific logic. That is a standard dilema to address in
> how
> > we want to
> > > >>>> treat osgi and non-osgi users. :-)
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Cheers!
> > > >>>> Łukasz
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> On 05.05.2020 12:34, Julian Feinauer wrote:
> > > >>>>> Hi Etienne and Niclas,
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> indeed we could orient (again) on how JDBC does that in
> > OSGi.
> > > >>>>> They really focus on "late binding" so that you resolve
> > the driver
> > > >>>> directly when you need it.
> > > >>>>> In theory, there is no such thing as a DriverManager in
> > OSGi but
> > > >> only a
> > > >>>> PlcDriver with the capability ("plc4x-protocol": "s7") or
> > something.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> I did it witht he driver maanger mostly fort he ease as
> > first
> > > >> approach.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Julian
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Am 05.05.20, 12:30 schrieb "Niclas Hedhman" <
> > nic...@hedhman.org>:
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Also, just in case, a custom activator is ever
> > required, it can
> > > >> be
> > > >>>>> overridden easily without breaking the over all
> design
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 6:27 PM Niclas Hedhman <
> > > >> nic...@hedhman.org>
> > > >>>> wrote:
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> > Yes, that's what I mean, because that is what you
> > have inside
> > > >> the
> > > >>>> loop, so
> > > >>>>> > it should work.
> > > >>>>> >
> > > >>>>> > On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 11:50 AM Robinet, Etienne <
> > > >>>> 43...@etu.he2b.be>
> > > >>>>> > wrote:
> > > >>>>> >
> > > >>>>> >> Hi Niclas,
> > > >>>>> >> thanks for the feedback. So you mean to make the
> > Activator in
> > > >>>> API/SPI
> > > >>>>> >> generic so every Driver would call it and declare
> > the service
> > > >>>> itself?
> > > >>>>> >>
> > > >>>>> >> Le mar. 5 mai 2020 à 05:25, Niclas Hedhman <
> > > >> nic...@hedhman.org>
> > > >>>> a écrit :
> > > >>>>> >>
> > > >>>>> >> > What you are doing is not particularly OSGi-y...
> > The
> > > >> expected
> > > >>>> way to do
> > > >>>>> >> > this is to have each bundle register their
> > PlcDriver or
> > > >>>> Transport to the
> > > >>>>> >> > OSGi service registry.
> > > >>>>> >> >
> > > >>>>> >> > That said, what you have done is otherwise fine,
> > as you
> > > >>>> basically
> > > >>>>> >> trying to
> > > >>>>> >> > centralize the BundleActivators away from
> > respective
> > > >>>> Driver/Transport.
> > > >>>>> >> And
> > > >>>>> >> > I assume you do so to limit code in the
> > drivers/transports.
> > > >>>>> >> >
> > > >>>>> >> > Another way would be to make two generic
> > BundleActivator in
> > > >>>> this bundle
> > > >>>>> >> and
> > > >>>>> >> > have each driver/transport just declare them in
> > the
> > > >> manifest.
> > > >>>> That
> > > >>>>> >> would be
> > > >>>>> >> > a bit more conventional.
> > > >>>>> >> >
> > > >>>>> >> > // Niclas
> > > >>>>> >> >
> > > >>>>> >> > On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 11:06 AM Robinet,
> Etienne <
> > > >>>> 43...@etu.he2b.be>
> > > >>>>> >> > wrote:
> > > >>>>> >> >
> > > >>>>> >> > > Hi all,
> > > >>>>> >> > > With the change of Christofer this problem got
> > solved.
> > > >>>> Nonetheless, I
> > > >>>>> >> > kept
> > > >>>>> >> > > the work I did (inspired by the work of
> Lukasz)
> > to make an
> > > >>>> Activator
> > > >>>>> >> for
> > > >>>>> >> > > API (Driver Services) and SPI (Transport
> > Services). I also
> > > >>>> tested it,
> > > >>>>> >> but
> > > >>>>> >> > > as I am pretty new to this, if anyone could
> > just give me a
> > > >>>> feedback on
> > > >>>>> >> > the
> > > >>>>> >> > > code:
> > > >>>>> >> > >
> > > >>>>> >> > > API Activator:
> > > >>>>> >> > >
> > > >>>>> >> > >
> > > >>>>> >> >
> > > >>>>> >>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>
> > >
> >
> https://github.com/apache/plc4x/blob/feature/osgi/plc4j/api/src/main/java/org/apache/plc4x/java/osgi/ApiActivator.java
> > > >>>>> >> > > SPI Activator:
> > > >>>>> >> > >
> > > >>>>> >> > >
> > > >>>>> >> >
> > > >>>>> >>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>
> > >
> >
> https://github.com/apache/plc4x/blob/feature/osgi/plc4j/spi/src/main/java/org/apache/plc4x/java/osgi/SpiActivator.java
> > > >>>>> >> > >
> > > >>>>> >> > > If everything is alright, I could merge this
> > today.
> > > >>>>> >> > >
> > > >>>>> >> > > Etienne
> > > >>>>> >> > >
> > > >>>>> >> > > Le mar. 7 avr. 2020 à 17:52, Christofer Dutz <
> > > >>>>> >> christofer.d...@c-ware.de>
> > > >>>>> >> > a
> > > >>>>> >> > > écrit :
> > > >>>>> >> > >
> > > >>>>> >> > > > Hi folks,
> > > >>>>> >> > > >
> > > >>>>> >> > > > I just pushed a change that might get rid of
> > this error.
> > > >>>>> >> > > >
> > > >>>>> >> > > > I added the Plc4xBootstrap in an attempt to
> > get the
> > > >>>> TestTransport
> > > >>>>> >> > > working.
> > > >>>>> >> > > > For some reasons the netty folks created the
> > > >> EmbeddedChannel
> > > >>>>> >> > differently
> > > >>>>> >> > > > than the rest.
> > > >>>>> >> > > > However as the TestTransport is the only one
> > needing
> > > >> this
> > > >>>> change, I
> > > >>>>> >> > moved
> > > >>>>> >> > > > these classes to the test-transport module
> > > >>>>> >> > > > and extended NettyChannelFactory with a
> > createBootstrap
> > > >>>> method
> > > >>>>> >> which is
> > > >>>>> >> > > > simply overridden in TestTransport.
> > > >>>>> >> > > >
> > > >>>>> >> > > > So please give everything a try if it now
> > works as
> > > >> planned.
> > > >>>>> >> > > >
> > > >>>>> >> > > > Chris
> > > >>>>> >> > > >
> > > >>>>> >> > > >
> > > >>>>> >> > > >
> > > >>>>> >> > > > Am 07.04.20, 17:36 schrieb "Etienne
> Robinet" <
> > > >>>> 43...@etu.he2b.be>:
> > > >>>>> >> > > >
> > > >>>>> >> > > > Hi all,
> > > >>>>> >> > > > I’ve checked the Manifest. If I put the
> > > >>>> Embed-Dependency to the
> > > >>>>> >> > > > plc4j-spi artifact it does not find the
> > Transport
> > > >> Service.
> > > >>>> And if I
> > > >>>>> >> > dont
> > > >>>>> >> > > > it does not find the Plc4xBootstrap.
> > > >>>>> >> > > >
> > > >>>>> >> > > > Etienne ROBINET
> > > >>>>> >> > > >
> > > >>>>> >> > > > > Le 7 avr. 2020 à 16:48, Łukasz
> Dywicki <
> > > >>>> l...@code-house.org>
> > > >>>>> >> a
> > > >>>>> >> > > > écrit :
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >
> > > >>>>> >> > > > > I was updating my local checkout
> > yesterday. Can't
> > > >>>> promise if I
> > > >>>>> >> > will
> > > >>>>> >> > > > be
> > > >>>>> >> > > > > able to help, but will give a try with
> > 0.7
> > > >> snapshot.
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >
> > > >>>>> >> > > > > Best,
> > > >>>>> >> > > > > Łukasz
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >> On 07.04.2020 15:39, Etienne Robinet
> > wrote:
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >> Hi again,
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >> I've been looking at this issue all
> > day, and I am
> > > >>>> back to the
> > > >>>>> >> > > > initial error:
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >> https://i.imgur.com/LLfan8H.png
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >> The difference is I used and
> Activator
> > for API
> > > >> and
> > > >>>> SPI to
> > > >>>>> >> > register
> > > >>>>> >> > > > the driver and transports Service, which are
> > then
> > > >> loaded by
> > > >>>> the
> > > >>>>> >> custom
> > > >>>>> >> > > > blueprint. The error now is caused again
> > because this
> > > >> class
> > > >>>> is not
> > > >>>>> >> > > exported
> > > >>>>> >> > > > (I think?) by the SPI, but is used by one of
> > the
> > > >> dependency
> > > >>>>> >> (io.netty).
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >> Any ideas on how to solve this?
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >> Etienne
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>> On 2020/04/07 06:53:54, Etienne
> > Robinet <
> > > >>>>> >> erobi...@apache.org>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > wrote:
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>> Hi all,
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>> the faulty ClassLoader is the
> > > >>>>> >> > > > BundleDelegatingClassLoader(plc4x-test
> > [191]). Which
> > > >> means
> > > >>>> that the
> > > >>>>> >> > > custom
> > > >>>>> >> > > > bundle can not find the class right?
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>> I'm sorry if it's a silly question
> > but I am
> > > >> pretty
> > > >>>> new to
> > > >>>>> >> this.
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>> Etienne
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>> On 2020/04/06 20:28:17, Łukasz
> > Dywicki <
> > > >>>> l...@code-house.org
> > > >>>>> >> >
> > > >>>>> >> > > > wrote:
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>> I haven't used Camel for a while,
> > but to me it
> > > >>>> seems to be
> > > >>>>> >> a
> > > >>>>> >> > > > problem
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>> caused by caller's classloader.
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>> See that in stack trace you have a
> > thread
> > > >> which is
> > > >>>> started
> > > >>>>> >> by
> > > >>>>> >> > > > camel, so
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>> there are 3 or even 4 classloaders
> > to be
> > > >>>> considered:
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>> - plc4x, definitely not a faulty
> one
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>> - netty, could be troublesome but
> > unlikely to
> > > >> be
> > > >>>> used
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>> - camel-core, or component itself
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>> - custom bundle which started the
> > route
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>> Anything beside last one which
> knows
> > all the
> > > >>>> dependencies
> > > >>>>> >> will
> > > >>>>> >> > > > blow up
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>> whole universe. Here is why - only
> > the custom
> > > >>>> bundle knows
> > > >>>>> >> all
> > > >>>>> >> > > the
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>> dependencies necessary to run logic
> > and can be
> > > >>>> used to fix
> > > >>>>> >> > > messed
> > > >>>>> >> > > > up
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>> classpath. In most of the cases,
> > that's the
> > > >>>> "trick" you
> > > >>>>> >> have
> > > >>>>> >> > to
> > > >>>>> >> > > > make in
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>> order to get OSGi happy.
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>> Camel component may not, and should
> > not depend
> > > >> on
> > > >>>> specific
> > > >>>>> >> > > driver,
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>> however in your case it does.
> > Possibly due to
> > > >> new
> > > >>>> APIs in
> > > >>>>> >> > > > transport
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>> layer its shouldn't be used for
> > adhoc fixes.
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>> We can try to turn drivers into
> > services (see
> > > >> here
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > >
> > > >>>>> >> > >
> > > >>>>> >> >
> > > >>>>> >>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>
> > >
> >
> https://github.com/splatch/plc4x/commit/5ce379cf8d2f5dc91fdfb6d8a8e2c0531906e69f
> > > >>>>> >> > > > )
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>> in order to cut concrete class
> > dependency and
> > > >> rely
> > > >>>> on
> > > >>>>> >> isolated
> > > >>>>> >> > > > APIs.
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>> This code was done before new
> > abstractions over
> > > >>>> netty were
> > > >>>>> >> > > > introduced,
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>> but it should cut in half API and
> > caller side
> > > >> (not
> > > >>>> sure if
> > > >>>>> >> > we're
> > > >>>>> >> > > > on
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>> declarative services).
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>> My tip to you Etienne - please
> > verify which
> > > >> class
> > > >>>> loader is
> > > >>>>> >> > used
> > > >>>>> >> > > > in your
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>> polling cycle. You can do that by
> > making
> > > >>>> breakpoint in
> > > >>>>> >> faulty
> > > >>>>> >> > > > method of
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>> S7Driver and evaluating expression
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>
> > > >> "Thread.currentThread().getContextClassLoader()".
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>> Once you know that you can either
> fix
> > > >> classloading
> > > >>>> in the
> > > >>>>> >> > > calling
> > > >>>>> >> > > > class
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>> loader or override classloader for
> > thread to
> > > >>>> proper one.
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>> Best,
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>> Łukasz
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>> On 03.04.2020 10:27, Etienne
> Robinet
> > wrote:
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>> Hi Christian,
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>> you mean the code used in the
> Camel
> > route? It
> > > >> is
> > > >>>> an
> > > >>>>> >> > blueprint:
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>> <?xml version="1.0"
> > encoding="UTF-8"?>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>> <blueprint xmlns="
> > > >>>>> >> http://www.osgi.org/xmlns/blueprint/v1.0.0
> > > >>>>> >> > "
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>> xmlns:xsi="
> > > >>>>> >> > http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance
> > > >>>>> >> > > "
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>> xsi:schemaLocation= "
> > > >>>>> >> > > > http://www.osgi.org/xmlns/blueprint/v1.0.0
> > > >>>>> >> > > >
> > > >> https://www.osgi.org/xmlns/blueprint/v1.0.0/blueprint.xsd
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>
> > > >>>> http://camel.apache.org/schema/blueprint
> > > >>>>> >> > > >
> > > >>>>
> > http://camel.apache.org/schema/blueprint/camel-blueprint-2.24.2.xsd
> > > >>>>> >> ">
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>> <camelContext id="PLC-IoTDB"
> > xmlns="
> > > >>>>> >> > > > http://camel.apache.org/schema/blueprint";
> > > >>>> streamCache="true" >
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>> <route id="plc-route" >
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>> <from
> > > >>>>> >> > > >
> > uri="timer://plcFetch?fixedRate=true&period=1000"/>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>> <pollEnrich>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>
> > <simple>plc4x:s7:tcp://
> > > >>>>> >> > > > 192.168.178.10?address=#fields</simple>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>> </pollEnrich>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>> <log
> message="${body}"/>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>> <to
> > uri="mock:test?retainLast=10"/>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>> </route>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>> </camelContext>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>> <bean id="fields"
> > > >> class="java.util.ArrayList">
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>> <argument>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>> <list>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>> <bean
> > > >>>>> >> class="org.apache.plc4x.camel.TagData">
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>> <argument
> > index="0"
> > > >>>> value="IntTest"/>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>> <argument
> > index="1"
> > > >>>>> >> > value="%DB1.DBW254:INT"/>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>> </bean>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>> <bean
> > > >>>>> >> class="org.apache.plc4x.camel.TagData">
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>> <argument
> > index="0"
> > > >>>> value="StringTest"/>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>> <argument
> > index="1"
> > > >>>>> >> > > value="%DB1.DBX0:STRING"/>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>> </bean>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>> </list>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>> </argument>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>> </bean>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>> </blueprint>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>> This code used to wrok actually, I
> > just
> > > >> wanted to
> > > >>>> test the
> > > >>>>> >> > new
> > > >>>>> >> > > > TagData of the integration. This is the
> > bundling in the
> > > >>>> pom, these
> > > >>>>> >> > > imports
> > > >>>>> >> > > > had to be there before too
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>> <plugin>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>
> > > >> <groupId>org.apache.felix</groupId>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> >> <artifactId>maven-bundle-plugin</artifactId>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>
> > <version>4.2.1</version>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>
> > <extensions>true</extensions>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>> <configuration>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>> <instructions>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > >
> > > >>>>
> > <Bundle-SymbolicName>${project.artifactId}</Bundle-SymbolicName>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > >
> > <Bundle-Version>${project.version}</Bundle-Version>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>
> > <Export-Package>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>
> > > >>>> *;version=${project.version}
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>
> > </Export-Package>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>
> > <Import-Package>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > org.apache.plc4x.java.spi.transport,
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > org.apache.plc4x.java.s7.readwrite,
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>> *
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>
> > </Import-Package>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>> </instructions>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>> </configuration>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>> </plugin>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>> Etienne
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>> On 2020/04/03 08:17:45, Christian
> > Schneider <
> > > >>>>> >> > > > ch...@die-schneider.net> wrote:
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>> The code in plc4x directly uses
> > the class
> > > >> (not a
> > > >>>> String
> > > >>>>> >> of
> > > >>>>> >> > the
> > > >>>>> >> > > > name). This
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>> is good. Normally such a class
> > reference
> > > >> should
> > > >>>> work
> > > >>>>> >> fine.
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>> Can you show your code as a
> > complete example?
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>> Christian
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>> Am Fr., 3. Apr. 2020 um 09:58 Uhr
> > schrieb
> > > >> Julian
> > > >>>>> >> Feinauer <
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>> j.feina...@pragmaticminds.de>:
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>> I am off with my knowledge.
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>> You could ask the Karaf friends
> > (#karaf in
> > > >>>> Slack). They
> > > >>>>> >> are
> > > >>>>> >> > > > all OSGi
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>> experts and very friendly and
> > helpful.
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>> Or perhaps Christian has an idea
> > here?
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>> Best
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>> Julian
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>> Am 03.04.20, 09:50 schrieb
> > "Etienne
> > > >> Robinet" <
> > > >>>>> >> > > > erobi...@apache.org>:
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>> Hi again,
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>> I've been struggling with
> this
> > issue for
> > > >> 2
> > > >>>> days
> > > >>>>> >> now... I
> > > >>>>> >> > > > still don't
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>> get it why it can not find
> > classes. here is
> > > >> the
> > > >>>> current
> > > >>>>> >> > > > problem:
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>
> > https://i.imgur.com/LtZMdsu.png
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>> We can see that the classes
> are
> > > >> available and
> > > >>>>> >> exported,
> > > >>>>> >> > I
> > > >>>>> >> > > > don't know
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>> why the Camel Context can't find
> > it. I even
> > > >>>> tried to
> > > >>>>> >> add an
> > > >>>>> >> > > > Activator to my
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>> bundle, and load these classes
> > there and it
> > > >>>> works! But
> > > >>>>> >> not
> > > >>>>> >> > in
> > > >>>>> >> > > > the
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>> blueprint. If anyone had any
> idea
> > on where
> > > >> the
> > > >>>> problem
> > > >>>>> >> > is...
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>> Etienne
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>> On 2020/04/01 01:31:15,
> Niclas
> > Hedhman <
> > > >>>>> >> > > nic...@hedhman.org>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > wrote:
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>> It happens that OSGi
> > classloading result in
> > > >>>> the wrong
> > > >>>>> >> > NCDFE
> > > >>>>> >> > > > and that
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>> one of
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>> the classes "used" (i.e. return
> > type,
> > > >>>> parameter,
> > > >>>>> >> throws,
> > > >>>>> >> > > > extends,
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>> implements) in the reported
> > class is not
> > > >>>> visible by the
> > > >>>>> >> > > > classloader.
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>> And
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>> occasionally, it is a "diamond
> > problem",
> > > >> i.e.
> > > >>>> that the
> > > >>>>> >> > > > Constraints
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>> (IIRC,
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>> see chapter 3.8 in OSGi spec)
> > can't be
> > > >>>> satisfied.
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>> Sorry that I don't have time to
> > dig into
> > > >> the
> > > >>>> actual
> > > >>>>> >> > > situation
> > > >>>>> >> > > > here,
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>> but I
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>> thought I could share some of
> my
> > past
> > > >> (dark)
> > > >>>>> >> history....
> > > >>>>> >> > ;-)
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>> Cheers
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>> Niclas
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 12:43 AM
> > Christofer
> > > >>>> Dutz <
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>> christofer.d...@c-ware.de>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>> wrote:
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>> Hi all,
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>> But If I search for uses of
> > that class,
> > > >> it's
> > > >>>> only in
> > > >>>>> >> the
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>> >>
> > org.apache.plc4x.java.spi.connection.NettyChannelFactory
> > > >>>>> >> > > > which is
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>> in the
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>> SPI module.
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>> So I am not sure where this is
> > accessed
> > > >>>> directly from
> > > >>>>> >> the
> > > >>>>> >> > > > outside.
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>> I know
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>> every driver would use the
> > > >>>> NettyChannelFactory, but
> > > >>>>> >> that
> > > >>>>> >> > > > shouldn't
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>> be an
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>> OSGi type problem as the SPI
> > classes
> > > >> should
> > > >>>> be able to
> > > >>>>> >> > > access
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>> their own
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>> classes.
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>> Chris
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>> Am 31.03.20, 16:07 schrieb
> > "Etienne
> > > >> Robinet" <
> > > >>>>> >> > > > 43...@etu.he2b.be>:
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>> Hi,
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>> From the log the class is
> > called
> > > >> outside
> > > >>>> the SPI by
> > > >>>>> >> > the
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>> transport
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>> Etienne
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> Le 31 mars 2020 à 15:24,
> > Julian Feinauer
> > > >> <
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>> j.feina...@pragmaticminds.de>
> > a écrit :
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> Hi,
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> yes, if ist only needed
> > internally its
> > > >>>> fine.But why
> > > >>>>> >> does
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>> someone
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>> then get a Class Not Found
> > Exception?
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> This is usually a hint to
> some
> > class
> > > >> loader
> > > >>>> issue in
> > > >>>>> >> > OSGi
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>> which is
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>> related to exports/ imports.
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> J
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> Am 31.03.20, 15:23 schrieb
> > "Christofer
> > > >> Dutz"
> > > >>>> <
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>> christofer.d...@c-ware.de>:
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> As this package is only
> > referenced from
> > > >>>> within SPI,
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>> couldn't we
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>> just exclude it from the
> > package exports?
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> Chris
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> Am 31.03.20, 15:17 schrieb
> > "Julian
> > > >>>> Feinauer" <
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>> j.feina...@pragmaticminds.de
> >:
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> Hi,
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> the issue is that if we
> > export it,
> > > >>>> then we
> > > >>>>> >> break
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>> Nettys OSGi
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>> integration as we get a split
> > package
> > > >>>> situation (two
> > > >>>>> >> > > bundles
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>> exporting the
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>> same package, which is
> > forbidden in OSGi).
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> So I see no easy
> > solution (but had
> > > >> to
> > > >>>> do the
> > > >>>>> >> same
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>> once as
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>> Netty is pretty... private).
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> J
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> Am 31.03.20, 15:15
> > schrieb
> > > >> "Christofer
> > > >>>> Dutz" <
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>> christofer.d...@c-ware.de>:
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> Hi all,
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> I just discussed
> > this issue
> > > >> with
> > > >>>> Etienne
> > > >>>>> >> and I
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>> thought it
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>> was important for all, so I
> > asked him to
> > > >>>> bring it
> > > >>>>> >> here.
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> In my effort to get
> > the
> > > >>>> EmbeddedChannel
> > > >>>>> >> > working
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>> as a full
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>> "transport" module, I had to
> > override the
> > > >>>> Netty
> > > >>>>> >> Bootstrap
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>> mechanism.
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> Unfortunately in
> > order to do
> > > >> so, I
> > > >>>> need to
> > > >>>>> >> > call
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>> "init"
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>> from the derived class.
> > Unfortunately
> > > >> this is
> > > >>>> package
> > > >>>>> >> > > > private in
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>> Netty so I
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>> had
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> To add it to the
> > same package.
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> Would it help to
> > just not
> > > >> export
> > > >>>> these
> > > >>>>> >> > packages
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>> to OSGi?
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> But I'm also open
> for
> > > >> alternatives
> > > >>>> (Please
> > > >>>>> >> > none
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>> involving
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>> mega-evil reflection hackery).
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> Chris
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> Am 31.03.20, 15:10
> > schrieb
> > > >> "Etienne
> > > >>>>> >> Robinet" <
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>> erobi...@apache.org>:
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> Hi all,
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> I've been
> > working on the
> > > >> Camel
> > > >>>>> >> Component
> > > >>>>> >> > and
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>> decided
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>> to test it inside Karaf, but I
> > noticed
> > > >> that
> > > >>>> I've got
> > > >>>>> >> this
> > > >>>>> >> > > > error
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>> now:
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>> https://i.imgur.com/kUZPwZ5.png
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> Seems like this
> > class is
> > > >> not
> > > >>>> exported
> > > >>>>> >> by
> > > >>>>> >> > the
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>> bundle
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>> so it can not be found. Anyone
> > has an
> > > >> idea on
> > > >>>> how we
> > > >>>>> >> > could
> > > >>>>> >> > > > solve
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>> this?
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> Etienne
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>> --
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>> --
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>> Christian Schneider
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>> http://www.liquid-reality.de
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>> Computer Scientist
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>> http://www.adobe.com
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>
> > > >>>>> >> > > >
> > > >>>>> >> > > >
> > > >>>>> >> > > >
> > > >>>>> >> > >
> > > >>>>> >> >
> > > >>>>> >>
> > > >>>>> >
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
