Hi Ryan, thanks for the response - points taken. Let's see what the future holds :)
Best regards On Thu, Oct 8, 2015 at 4:07 PM, Ryan Baxter <rbaxte...@apache.org> wrote: > Hi Chris, thanks for the very thoughtful email. In general I agree with > what you are saying. Some more comments inline. > > On Thu, Oct 8, 2015 at 5:54 AM Chris Spiliotopoulos < > chrysanthos.spiliotopou...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Hi all, > > > > instead of becoming emotional I prefer sharing some thoughts with > everyone > > in this thread. Well, to be honest I think that everyone expected this > to > > happen at some point. Of course not due to lack of support from the dev > > team - this had always been superb - but rather due to lack of awareness > > regarding this (IMHO) ground-breaking technology and I'm referring to the > > gadgets side of things. > > > > I've been using gadgets for quite a few years and I've managed to > convince > > people about the benefits of having a fully decoupled system with > pluggable > > apps either in-house or 3rd party. Of course as I have stated in the > past > > this had always been a steep curve as very few people are aware of this > > technology but in the end everybody would buy in after seeing the > results. > > During these years I have managed to 'tame the beast' as resources had > > always been scattered and very few and eventually was able to put it to > > work for producing great dashboard apps and in the future (I hope) > > marketplaces as well. > > > > My personal feeling is that most of the people using Shindig for a long > > time now are here for its gadget rendering capabilities and the potential > > it provides towards a fully decoupled architecture where app devs can > work > > independently from platform devs but eventually everything can work > > together a a whole with minimum orchestration efforts. This has been my > > personal experience so far anyways. Having said that, I've always felt > > that the Shindig project had always been to large / broad in > functionality > > lacking clearly not dev but rather promotional & awareness efforts. > > > > Another factor that always helped me rest assured in a way regarding its > > usefulness and future is that major companies like Google, Atlassian and > > others with very popular products have also been using this technology > as a > > core component of their infrastructure until now. Although Google who > > open-sourced the tech seems that it progressively deprecates some of > their > > products who had major touch points with the gadgets spec, still keeps it > > alive in products like Gmail, Google apps, etc plus they have been > hosting > > the official Gadgets API site for a long time now. One of the puzzling > > questions though is why these companies (apart from the IBM people who > kept > > the project running) were never openly involved with the promotion and > > support of the tech in order to reach broader audiences through real-life > > use cases? Correct me if I'm wrong but I've come to the conclusion that > > these companies are maintaining probably ports of certain Shindig > > components that have extended them in order to meet their requirements. > > This is easy to speculate since reading the documentation of their > products > > shows clearly that there are extensions not supported by Shindig > > out-of-the-box - once I had a chat with a guy working at Jive at the time > > and he told me that they wrote their own security layer around their > gadget > > containers. > > > > I'll have to agree with Darren that due to the robustness of the > framework > > most integrators are more than ok with the standard features it has to > > offer and therefore this might have caused the side-effect to the > > maintainers to since there are no new requests / ticket activities then > > this framework has fulfilled its purpose and has become out of fashion. > I > > personally think that gadget tech has a future and a lot to offer when it > > comes down to specific use cases - dashboards and marketplaces being a > > couple for starters. After I received this mail today morning, I had a > > quick search on the web to see if there are any real alternatives but I > > found none. Has the plug-n-play model on the web become old fashioned > > then? Are composable web apps like dashboards coming to an end? I > don't > > think so. > > > > I have not seen anything else that is as robust as gadgets so far, > although I have heard some buzz around these things called "web components" > that sounded like they would do something similar. I never really looked > into it though. I think gadgets are still the best choice when it comes to > allowing 3rd party apps to be integrated into a platform. > > > > It would be really interesting to get in touch with the aforementioned > > companies and ask them what are their plans regarding the infrastructure > > they have invested on for years. Will they be switching to something > new? > > Are they willing to port the project and maintain it under a different > > perspective? > > > There are certainly a number of companies that have consumed Shindig and > used it in well established products that won't be going away any time > soon. Some have chosen to fork the code base, others have not. And you > are right most that have consumed the technology rarely promote it or drive > features back into it. When I worked on the team using Shindig in IBM (I > don't any longer) we made a very conscious effort to not fork the code base > and drive whatever fixes and features we needed through the open source > project. Hence we also spend some time promoting the open source project > as well. However for the past year or so IBM has slowed down its effort in > Shindig and since I no longer work on the team I can't really speak to what > the future holds. > > > > > Having said all that my personal belief is that gadget technology > deserves > > a better luck through proper communication and reach to broader developer > > audiences. The only way I can see that happening is through a > > modernization / revamp process of marketing / reference / tutorial > material > > and transfer to a more popular collaboration environment like GitHub. My > > personal experience for doing this sort of thing last year through the > > standard Apache process led to a dead-end - I have nothing against formal > > processes, but when things are more about bureaucracy and old-school > stuff > > rather than moving forward to the present then I start to lose interest. > > On the other hand, if a bunch of us decided to do something very simple > as > > creating a Jekyll site on GitHub with a few tutorials and a number of > > ready-to-use artifacts making use of new age techs like Docker containers > > to start sharing our experiences then we would have more success I guess > > reaching out to younger developers and diverse audiences. Most of us are > > already doing this for our companies, why not share the foundation work > > with others and start building a community? > > > We have not officially terminated the project yet, the board will not meet > until the 21st. If there is enough interest from the community Shindig can > live on. However I for one would be stepping down as the PMC chair as I > just dont have the time to revamp and drive the project forward anymore. > If there is enough interest than the question becomes does Shindig remain > an Apache project or something outside of the foundation itself. (We can > move the code to GitHub by the way even as an Apache project). I guess > that would be up to the people who want to keep the project going. > > > > > Lack of development activity doesn't necessarily mean lack of interest or > > potential. In Shindig's case this is a good thing because we have a > stable > > framework in our hands. But most of the people in the tech business > > doesn't know such a thing exists. And I'm sure that this is not > > irreversible. > > > > Kind regards, > > Chris > > > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 8, 2015 at 12:31 AM, Raj Janorkar <raj.janor...@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > > > Hi Ryan, > > > > > > This is really sad news. > > > I am really thankful of your and dev team support you all helped me > lot. > > > > > > As Darren Said Shindig is very much stable and i dont see any isues at > > the > > > moment. > > > > > > Just one thing i can see so many bug fixed since last release. So will > > > there be final release Ryan? If you can that would be great and may be > > your > > > last favour to all of us and your loved baby Shindig. > > > > > > I dont see any future of apache rave either, people are so busy > switching > > > between millions of apps on their iphone. so no gadgets based sites are > > > their interest But history repeats itself. > > > > > > lets see what comes next. > > > > > > Thank you > > > > > > > > > On Thursday 8 October 2015, Darren Bond <db...@globalcad.com> wrote: > > > > > > > Dear All, > > > > > > > > This is very sad news indeed. Apache Shindig is at the core of > several > > of > > > > our very popular sites - we consider it a mature product that does > > > exactly > > > > what it should, and does it very well indeed. Perhaps that's partly > the > > > > reason for the lack of user support requests! > > > > > > > > You, the dev team, kindly helped us resolve a number of issues back > in > > > > 2014 and we've never looked back since - we love Apache Shindig! > > > > > > > > Thank you for all your commitment, love, sweat and tears developing > the > > > > project - we truly value what you have created and will continue its > > use > > > > well into the future. > > > > > > > > Kind regards, > > > > > > > > Darren > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Ryan Baxter [mailto:rbaxte...@apache.org <javascript:;>] > > > > Sent: 07 October 2015 19:32 > > > > To: dev@shindig.apache.org <javascript:;> > > > > Subject: Fwd: Terminate the Apache Shindig Project > > > > > > > > Hi fellow Shindig Devs, > > > > > > > > I would like to let you all know that the Shindig PMC has voted to > > > > terminate the Shindig project and move it to the attic. I have > already > > > > informed the Apache board about the termination in this months board > > > report > > > > (below). > > > > > > > > As most of you have probably noticed we have seen a decline in > > > > participation in all aspects of the project over the past months and > > the > > > > downward trend has been happening for over a year now. This can > > > certainly > > > > be seen in our reports to the board [1]. > > > > > > > > If anyone has any questions please let me know, and I will be sure to > > > keep > > > > everyone up to date as we transition the project to the attic. > Thanks. > > > > > > > > -Ryan > > > > > > > > [1] > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/SHINDIG/Board+Reports > > > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message --------- > > > > From: Ryan Baxter <rbaxte...@apache.org <javascript:;>> > > > > Date: Mon, Oct 5, 2015 at 9:29 PM > > > > Subject: Terminate the Apache Shindig Project > > > > To: bo...@apache.org <javascript:;> <bo...@apache.org > <javascript:;>> > > > > Cc: priv...@shindig.apache.org <javascript:;> < > > > priv...@shindig.apache.org > > > > <javascript:;>> > > > > > > > > > > > > WHEREAS, the Project Management Committee of the Apache DirectMemory > > > > project has chosen by vote to recommend moving the project to the > > Attic; > > > > and > > > > > > > > WHEREAS, the Board of Directors deems it no longer in the best > interest > > > of > > > > the Foundation to continue the Apache Shindig project due to > > inactivity; > > > > > > > > NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, that the Apache Shindig project is > > hereby > > > > terminated; and be it further > > > > > > > > RESOLVED, that the Attic PMC be and hereby is tasked with oversight > > over > > > > the software developed by the Apache Shindig Project; and be it > further > > > > > > > > RESOLVED, that the office of "Vice President, Apache Shindig" is > hereby > > > > terminated; and be it further > > > > > > > > RESOLVED, that the Apache Shindig PMC is hereby terminated. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Chris Spiliotopoulos > > > > Solutions Architect | @LinkedIn > > <https://www.linkedin.com/pub/chris-spiliotopoulos>| @Twitter > > <https://twitter.com/chefArchitect> > > > -- Chris Spiliotopoulos Solutions Architect | @LinkedIn <https://www.linkedin.com/pub/chris-spiliotopoulos>| @Twitter <https://twitter.com/chefArchitect>
