Hi Florian, thanks for asking! Then I propose to stick with the Apache SIS/empty database approach and to not include any ProJ4j dependencies in our source.
Cheers Dominik -----Original Message----- From: Florian Micklich <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2022 10:56 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Setup for Coordinate Reference System Reprojection Sources Hi Dominik, Am Dienstag, dem 22.11.2022 um 15:12 +0000 schrieb Dominik Riemer: > Hi Florian,<br> > > just to make sure I understand correctly:<br> > > * There is an "SIS approach" which doesn't have any licensing issues > as users would need to fill their own database and only Apache SIS > dependencies are used in this approach<br> Yes that is correct. > * There could be a fallback option which wouldn't require users to > have their own database, but that would require pulling in Proj4j, > which itself relies on EPSG datasets.<br> Yes, that was my idea. Also to use only some basic coordinates reference systems. But I had the same question like you in mind so I wrote Martin (maintainer of SIS) exactly this kind of questions. The answer is really worth reading! I am really surprised and amazed, because most Geo Open Source programs are based on proj4. >Hello Florian > >Le 22/11/2022 à 18:44, Florian Micklich a écrit : > >> I didn't know that proj4j itself uses EPSG data. >> >The CSV files in [1] are derived from EPSG tables. The file structures >are different than EPSG database schema, but the data that they contain >are EPSG data. The same information is also provided in WKT format in >[2] (this file somewhat duplicates the CSV tables). Some peoples on >PROJ mailing list have argued that rewriting EPSG data in a different >format free them from EPSG licensing terms, but this is not true. >Translating a software in a different language is a derivative work and >is still subject to the licensing terms of the copyright owner. In the >same way that translating a book does not suppress the rights of the >original author on the translated book. In the case of EPSG data, IOGP >allows us to reformat the data in a different way, but under some >conditions specified in their Terms of Use. And doing so does not give >us the right to erase the EPSG terms of use from the derivative work. > >The value of EPSG geodetic dataset is not in the database schema >(converting that to a different data structure is the easy part), but >in the data themselves. Creating a new "EPSG-like" dataset from scratch >would be a huge effort, well beyond our capability. We would have to >visit all national mapping agencies in the world, ask them to provide >documentation about the Coordinate Reference System they have defined >(including historical ones), consolidate all those information in some >tables, etc. So the CSV files [1] in PROJ4 contain an enormous amount >of EPSG work, even if the data structures are different. > >[1]https://github.com/locationtech/proj4j/tree/master/src/main/resource >s/proj4 >[2]https://raw.githubusercontent.com/locationtech/proj4j/master/src/mai >n/resources/proj4/wkt/epsg.properties > > >> Until now I thought it would be a good alternative lib besides EPSG >> approach. >> >When creating a Coordinate Reference System (CRS) from an EPSG code >such as "EPSG:4326", we are using the EPSG geodetic dataset. I think >that if a software contains e.g. 10 EPSG codes (compared to the ~6000 >definitions in the full dataset), it could be considered Fair Use. But >including the full dataset requires that we comply with EPSG Terms Of Use. > >However if CRS are created from user-supplied WKT strings (or PROJ4 >parameter strings), then no EPSG code is involved. The WKT definition >string may contain an AUTHORITY["EPSG", 4326] element, but it only >means "see EPSG:4326 for more complete information". > > >> So what would be your advise with proj4(j) and how to handle that >> kind of implementation in an Apache project? >> >EPSG geodetic dataset is not needed when the CRS is built from WKT, GML >or some file formats like NetCDF and some (not all) GeoTIFF files. So >the approach taken in Apache SIS applications (JavaFX and console >application) is to start without EPSG data. Then the first time that an >EPSG code is really needed, the application popups a dialog box (in >JavaFX) or an interactive prompt (in console application) asking users >if they want to download the EPSG geodetic dataset. If users click >"yes", the EPSG Terms of Use is shown and the application asks users if >they accept. If they confirm, then the EPSG geodetic dataset is >downloaded and a database is created locally. > >Note that above procedure is needed only for software downloaded >directly from Apache servers. Anyone can bundle an application outside >Apache which contains the Apache software + EPSG data. The only >condition for being allowed to do that is to include the EPSG Terms of >Use (in addition of Apache license) in the application bundle. > > >> Officially it is running on MIT license. >> >Yes, this issue has been raised on their mailing list. PROJ maintainers >have choose to ignore. Some of them pretended that EPSG Terms of Use do >not apply to them anymore because they converted the PostgreSQL scripts >to SQLite scripts. I'm not a lawyer, but I think that this argument has >zero chance to hold in court. For now they rely on the fact that IOGP >(the owner of EPSG database) does not want to upset the geodetic community. > > Martin Exploding Head Smiley :-D Greetings Florian > > Is this correct?<br> > > Cheers<br> > Dominik<br> > > > -----Original Message-----<br> > From: Florian Micklich > <[[email protected]](mailto:[email protected])> <br> > Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2022 2:59 PM<br> > To: > [[email protected]](mailto:[email protected])<br> > Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Setup for Coordinate Reference System > Reprojection Sources<br> > > Hi,<br> > > I found an interesting post regarding proj4j.<br> That's why I prefer > the SIS approach with external database.<br> What do you think about > the mentioned "copyright infringement" opinion?<br> > > PROJ claims to be under MIT license, but in my understanding this is > copyright infringement. PROJ license should be MIT + EPSG terms of > use.<br> > > The whole post is:<br> > > > Proj4J (and its parent PROJ project) includes EPSG data, so the use > > of <br> Proj4J dependency implies accepting EPSG terms of use [1]. > > PROJ claims <br> to be under MIT license, but in my understanding > > this is copyright <br> infringement. PROJ license should be MIT + > > EPSG terms of use.<br> > > > > EPSG terms of use is a Category X license for Apache. The use of > > EPSG <br> data has been discussed in Apache Legal [2][3]. The > > conclusion was <br> that an Apache project can include EPSG data if > > they are optional <br> (i.e. the application can still do useful > > work without them), the main <br> release does not contain them, and > > the data are available in a <br> separated download prominently > > labelled as under a more restrictive <br> license than Apache.<br> > > > > [1][https://epsg.org/terms-of-use.html](https://epsg.org/terms-of-us > > e.html)<br> > > > > [2][https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-183](https://issues. > > apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-183)<br> > > > > [3][https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-347](https://issues. > > apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-347)<br> > > > > > > > Am Freitag, dem 18.11.2022 um 22:27 +0100 schrieb Florian > Micklich:<br> > > Hi,<br><br> > > > > the basic sis implementation is done :)<br> I created a pull request > > <br> [1] and happy about any feedback.<br><br> > > > > > > Form the fallback options I created this ticket [2]<br><br> > > > > Florian<br><br> > > > > [1] <br> > > [[https://github.com/apache/streampipes/pull/146](https://github.com > > /ap](https://github.com/apache/streampipes/pull/146](https://github. > > com/ap)<br> ache/streampipes/pull/146)<br> [2] <br> > > [[https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/STREAMPIPES-638](https://iss > > ues](https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/STREAMPIPES-638](https:// > > issues)<br> .apache.org/jira/browse/STREAMPIPES-638)<br><br> > > > > > > Am Montag, dem 31.10.2022 um 13:23 +0100 schrieb Florian > > Micklich:<br><br>> > > > Hi,<br><br><br> > > > > > > I updated the Jira Ticket and described the setup little bit <br> > > > more.<br><br> If my intellij is working I can run some last tests > > > on <br> the base implementation.<br><br><br> > > > > > > My thoughts for the setup implementation:<br><br><br> > > > > > > The setup could be visible in the Configuration -> Pipeline > > > Element <br> Configuration and if the service is available due > > > correct setup and <br> scripts import.<br><br> (see picture in > > > jira ticket <br><br><br> > > > > > > > > > To have still a plug and play system by default, we could > > > implement <br> a "fallback" projection system with a limited EPSG > > > Codes.<br><br> <br> Therefore we could use proj4j [2].<br><br> So > > > for example we allow <br> the user to select just a bunch of valid > > > codes from a list <br> somewhere.<br><br><br> > > > > > > > > > [1] <br> > > > [[[https://github.com/locationtech/proj4j](https://github.com/loca > > > tio](https://github.com/locationtech/proj4j](https://github.com/lo > > > catio)<br> > > > ntech/proj4j)]([https://github.com/locationtech/proj4j](https://gi > > > thu](https://github.com/locationtech/proj4j](https://githu)<br> > > > b.com/locationtech/proj4j))<br><br><br> > > > > > > What do you think?<br><br><br> > > > Greetings<br><br><br> > > > Florian<br><br><br> > > > > > > Am Montag, dem 19.09.2022 um 10:18 +0200 schrieb Florian <br> > > > Micklich:<br><br>><br>> > > > > > Hi Philipp,<br><br><br><br> > > > > > > > > ok, maybe we can have a deeper discussion next week.<br><br><br> > > > > I <br> am on vacation this week without computer > > > > :)<br><br><br><br> > > > > > > > > With dataSource I mean the "Registration by Java code" as <br> > > > > describet here [1].<br><br><br> I startet to write that code > > > > <br> yesterday but was not able to check it due another <br> > > > > issue.<br><br><br><br> > > > > > > > > Florian<br><br><br><br> > > > > > > > > > > > > [1] <br> > > > > [[[[https://sis.apache.org/epsg.html](https://sis.apache.org/eps > > > > g.h](https://sis.apache.org/epsg.html](https://sis.apache.org/ep > > > > sg.h)<br> > > > > tml)]([https://sis.apache.org/epsg.html](https://sis.apache.org/ > > > > eps](https://sis.apache.org/epsg.html](https://sis.apache.org/ep > > > > s)<br> > > > > g.html))]([https://sis.apache.org/epsg.html](https://sis.apache. > > > > org](https://sis.apache.org/epsg.html](https://sis.apache.org)<b > > > > r> > > > > /epsg.html)]([https://sis.apache.org/epsg.html](https://sis.apac > > > > he](https://sis.apache.org/epsg.html](https://sis.apache).<br> > > > > org/epsg.html)))<br><br><br><br> > > > > > > > > > > > > BlueMail for Android herunterladen <br><br><br><br> > > > > > > > > Am 19. Sept. 2022, 07:23, um 07:23, Philipp Zehnder <br> > > > > <[[[[[email protected]](mailto:philipp.zehnder@bytef > > > > abrik.ai)](mailto:philipp.zehnder@bytefabr<br> > > > > ik.ai)](mailto:[[[email protected]](mailto:philipp.z > > > > [email protected])](mailto:philipp.zehn<br> > > > > [[email protected]](mailto:[email protected])))](mailto:[[[phili > > > > [email protected]](mailto:[email protected])] > > > > (mailt<br> > > > > o:[[email protected]](mailto:philipp.zehnder@bytefab > > > > rik.ai))](mailto:[philipp.zehnder@bytefabr<br> > > > > ik.ai](mailto:[[email protected]](mailto:philipp.zeh > > > > [email protected]))))> schrieb:<br><br>> <br> <br>> ><br>> > > > > > > > Hi Florian,<br><br><br><br> > > > > > > > > > > thanks for opening the issue.<br><br><br> I really like the > > > > > <br> illustration, something like this would also be <br> > > > > > great<br><br><br> for the documentation of the processing <br> > > > > > elements.<br><br><br><br> > > > > > > > > > > As for the workflow, I'm not quite sure how we can handle > > > > > that. <br> Because<br><br><br> so far, the idea is that the > > > > > system is plug <br> and play.<br><br><br> The normal ‘user’ > > > > > should not have to <br> configure things on the > > > > > system<br><br><br> before it is <br> used.<br><br><br> My > > > > > suggestion would be to have a separate <br> service that can > > > > > optionally<br><br><br> be integrated by <br> manually adding > > > > > it to the docker-compose.<br><br><br> In this <br> docker > > > > > service a volume mapping would be required. If the <br> > > > > > files<br><br><br> are missing a message should be printed to > > > > > the <br> logs.<br><br><br><br> > > > > > > > > > > What do you mean by connection source?<br><br><br><br> > > > > > > > > > > Cheers,<br><br><br><br> > > > > > Philipp<br><br><br><br> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Von: Florian Micklich <br> > > > > > <[[[[[email protected]](mailto:florian.mick > > > > > [email protected])](mailto:florian.micklic<br> > > > > > [[email protected]](mailto:[email protected]))](mailto > > > > > :[[[email protected]](mailto:florian.micklich@m > > > > > ailbox.org.INV)<br> > > > > > ALID](mailto:[[email protected]](mailto:flo > > > > > [email protected])))](mailto:[[fl<br> > > > > > [[email protected]](mailto:orian.micklich@mai > > > > > lbox.org.INVALID)](mailto:florian.micklich@mail<br> > > > > > box.org.INVALID)](mailto:[[[email protected] > > > > > D](mailto:[email protected])](<br> > > > > > mailto:[[email protected]](mailto:florian.m > > > > > [email protected]))))><br><br><br><br> > > > > > Datum: Sonntag, 18. September 2022 um 12:44<br><br><br><br> > > > > > An: dev <br> > > > > > <[[[[[email protected]](mailto:[email protected] > > > > > .org)](mailto:[[email protected]](mailto:dev@streampip > > > > > es.apache.or)<br> > > > > > g)](mailto:[[[email protected]](mailto:dev@streampipe > > > > > s.apache.org)](mailto:[[email protected]](mailto:dev@streampip > > > > > es.a)<br> > > > > > pache.org))](mailto:[[[[email protected]](mailto:dev@ > > > > > streampipes.apache.org)](mailto:dev@str<br> > > > > > eampipes.apache.org)](mailto:[[[email protected]](mai > > > > > lto:[email protected])](mailto<br> > > > > > :[[email protected]](mailto:[email protected] > > > > > g))))><br><br><br><br> > > > > > Betreff: [DISCUSS] Setup for Coordinate Reference System <br> > > > > > Reprojection<br><br><br> Sources<br><br><br> Hi <br> > > > > > everybody,<br><br><br><br> > > > > > > > > > > I created a Ticket [1] to implement projection handling for > > > > > <br> geo<br><br><br> operations.<br><br><br><br> > > > > > > > > > > User case.:<br><br><br><br> > > > > > > > > > > Reproject betwwen WGS84 (with units Degree) to UTM (Unit <br> > > > > > meter).<br><br><br> With meter you can do calculations , which > > > > > <br> needs a metric Unit system<br><br><br> e.g. area > > > > > calculation, <br> everything with distance and so > > > > > on.<br><br><br><br> > > > > > > > > > > I also added a short wortkflow picture for better > > > > > understanding <br> and a<br><br><br> docker-compose file for > > > > > SP <br> Service.<br><br><br><br> > > > > > > > > > > While I am working on the processor itself, I have a couple > > > > > <br> of<br><br><br> questions and would need support for > > > > > implementing <br> everything in the the<br><br><br> SP UI and > > > > > discuss best ways <br> how to set up!<br><br><br><br> > > > > > > > > > > Any ideas or questions?<br><br><br><br> > > > > > > > > > > Greetings<br><br><br><br> > > > > > Florian<br><br><br><br> > > > > > > > > > > [1] <br> > > > > > [[[[https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/STREAMPIPES-584](htt > > > > > ps](https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/STREAMPIPES-584](htt > > > > > ps):<br> > > > > > //issues.apache.org/jira/browse/STREAMPIPES-584)]([https://iss > > > > > ues](https://issues)<br> > > > > > .apache.org/jira/browse/STREAMPIPES-584]([https://issues.apach > > > > > e.o](https://issues.apache.o)<br> > > > > > rg/jira/browse/STREAMPIPES-584))]([https://issues.apache.org/j > > > > > ira](https://issues.apache.org/jira)<br> > > > > > /browse/STREAMPIPES-584]([https://issues.apache.org/jira/brows > > > > > e/S](https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/S)<br> > > > > > TREAMPIPES-584)]([https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/STREAM > > > > > PIP](https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/STREAMPIP)<br> > > > > > ES-584]([https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/STREAMPIPES-584 > > > > > ](https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/STREAMPIPES-584))))<br > > > > > > > > > > > <br><br><br><br>
