On 12/1/06, Martin Cooper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On 12/1/06, Nathan Bubna <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> in my continuing quest to redefine the concept of "umbrella" in
> Apache-land....
>
> On 12/1/06, Martin Cooper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On 12/1/06, Antonio Petrelli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > > Craig McClanahan ha scritto:
> > > > The Dimensions code is going to have to go through
> > > > the Incubator -- even though its likely that this can go very
> quickly,
> > > > there
> > > > is no reason to mess up the progress of the Tiles TLP proposal by
> > > > trying to
> > > > do them together.
> > >
> > > Hi Craig, when I wrote "at the same time" I did not mean "together".
> > > Since probably Dimensions will become a subproject of Tiles TLP
> >
> >
> > I know this has been said by others before, but let me make it very
> clear:
> > The ASF board does not like "umbrella" projects at all, and would most
> > likely not approve Tiles as a TLP if it "smelled" of forthcoming
> > sub-projects before it even got off the ground.
>
> actually, we were able to take Velocityto TLP with both existing
> subprojects and the smell of forthcoming ones. this was done with
> much clarification, restriction, and debate on what constitutes an
> acceptable "subproject". the key difference is that Velocity will not
> be a "bucket" project such as Jakarta or db.apache.org that exists to
> group projects who share a conceptual space, but whose code and
> community are unconnected. instead, Velocity aims to be a true
> "umbrella" where all the Velocity subprojects (spokes of the umbrella)
> are truly sub-ordinate. this means their code and community are
> invested in the core Velocity template engine (the center pole) and do
> not function without it. the difference between bucket and umbrella
> is crucial to building a healthy, shared community.
>
> other significant differences are that non of the sub-projects get
> their own mailing list or svn permissions. that would fragment the
> community.
>
> > The reason that some people do not want Tiles to live on as a
> sub-project
> > within Struts is one of the same reasons that Shale went out on its own;
> > sub-projects are a sign that a project is moving in the wrong direction;
> > that is, in a direction that is not favoured by the ASF Board, and for
> good
> > reasons. Struts has been moving, and continues to move, in a direction
> that
> > eliminates the notion of sub-projects, the only exception being the two
> > versions of the Struts framework itself.
>
> i really think this is throwing out the baby with the bathwater. just
> because the sub-project things has been done poorly, doesn't mean that
> it deserves to be eliminated. i would hope that the board's
> acceptance of Velocity and its subprojects as a TLP shows recognition
> that it can be done right.
>
> > If Dimensions would ultimately be merged into Tiles, that is one thing,
> and
> > that might be fine. If, however, you are thinking that Dimensions would
> live
> > as a "similar concept but separate framework" to Tiles, but within the
> same
> > TLP, that is quite another thing, and not something I would like to see,
> not
> > to mention the ASF Board.
>
> agreed. conceptual association is totally insufficient grounds for
> shared community.
That's really the crux of what I was trying to say. Clearly, I didn't say it
very well. ;-(
excellent! so long as we do not plan to ban any and all subprojects
from this Tiles TLP we're trying to create, i will be happy. but, if
you'd like, feel free to join me in my quest and differentiate between
"conceptual bucket TLPs" and "code-connected umbrella TLPs". :)
since we began the effort to extricate the Velocity umbrella from the
Jakarta bucket, i've been making a concerted effort to refine the
language here in hopes of changing how the ASF thinks about these
issues.
--
Martin Cooper
> So, in short, we should purge the notion of sub-projecs from our minds,
> > whichever top-level project we are thinking of, and work on the basis
> that
> > they should not exist.
>
> no thanks.
>
> > --
> > Martin Cooper
> >
> >
> > , I
> > > thought that probably it was appropriate to wait until it is
> estabilished.
> > > I read this:
> > >
> > > http://incubator.apache.org/incubation/Incubation_Policy.html#Sponsor
> > >
> > > <snip>
> > > A Sponsor SHALL be either:
> > > * the Board of the Apache Software Foundation;
> > > * a Top Level Project (TLP) within the Apache Software Foundation
> (where
> > > the TLP considers the Candidate to be a suitable sub-project); or
> > > * the Incubator PMC.
> > > </snip>
> > >
> > > Antonio
> > >
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> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
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