It's our duty as PMC members to review committs. And of course a commit with the comment 'starting a thing which was decided not to be done' should spark EVERYONES curiosity.
All the PMC members at TomEE and Geronimo have been aware of the discussions and nobody said anything against putting the reusable parts at Geronimo. Au contraire it was widely agreed. Both the Geronimo PMC and also the TomEE PMC have been discussing this for months. Romain and I spent lots of time to find a viable compromise which is in the best interest of the broader communities. This included the option of moving the existing Geronimo parts to TomEE. Actually whether those parts are hosted at TomEE or Geronimo is really a minor point. After all the _active_ people are the same in both projects anyway. Andy made his intent clear now, I applogized. And I don't feel bad for it. Because it was very important to clarify the situation. LieGrue, strub > Am 13.02.2018 um 09:52 schrieb Jean-Louis Monteiro <jlmonte...@tomitribe.com>: > > Morning Mark, > > I appreciate the feedback, but I disagree. > > Adding an @Ignore on a test failing does not fix the issue (either the test > or the code) > Putting a napkin over some c... does not clean it up. > > This is not the first time it happens, so I'd rather prefer the community > to vent, put the problems on the table so we can tackle them, instead of > pretending the problem is solved and in one month from now, we are in the > same position. > > I do not plan to put fuel on the fire. > > I'm suggesting that instead of shooting at the daughter and therefor not > getting any chance to know it was a present, one should first ask > questions. > "My sweet heart, why do you have the keys of the car?" > "What do you plan to do with them?" > > I was trying to add some guidance to your good example of the daughter and > her father. > > You are a father, so am I. > > Hope it helps. > > > > -- > Jean-Louis Monteiro > http://twitter.com/jlouismonteiro > http://www.tomitribe.com > > On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 9:05 AM, Mark Struberg <strub...@yahoo.de.invalid> > wrote: > >> Please all stop putting fuel into the fire. >> >> LieGrue, >> strub >> >> >>> Am 13.02.2018 um 08:48 schrieb Jean-Louis Monteiro < >> jlmonte...@tomitribe.com>: >>> >>> Instead of shooting to someone or start arguing. Simply asking would take >>> all misunderstand off and avoid this disgusting mess. >>> >>> Le 13 févr. 2018 08:33, "Mark Struberg" <strub...@yahoo.de.invalid> a >>> écrit : >>> >>>> +1 words - and especially brief once as emails - are just a mapping >> from >>>> the reality to some 'transport mechanism' (Claude Shannon sender >> theoreme >>>> anyone?). >>>> And of course each 'map' is a huge simplification from the reality and >>>> thus prone to be misinterpreted. >>>> >>>> The important part here is that those clashes bring up some difference >> in >>>> view. >>>> And yes, I also think this has nothing to do with immature or childish. >> We >>>> are all just passionate. >>>> So the first very important step is to identify the pain point. >>>> >>>> For Romain and me, etc is to avoid duplication of work which already got >>>> done in other ASF projects. >>>> And to not have those modules hardcoded bound to the TomEE Application >>>> Server but to be reusable for other projects. >>>> Please note that I'm talking about the Appliation Server only and not >>>> about the TomEE project as governance body. >>>> >>>> I also had an important lesson in the 90s: >>>> >>>> If you have a problem >>>> 1.) solve it >>>> 2.) if you cannot solve it, live with it >>>> 3.) if you cannot live with it, leave it. >>>> >>>> More generally: >>>> There are some points which totally doesn't matter to someone. >>>> There are other points which we would love to see a certain outcome, but >>>> we would also perfectly accept a compromise. >>>> And is also a category of points where we simply cannot live with a >>>> compromise. Or where we would simply stop being part of it. >>>> >>>> In the current situation it's pretty easy. NONE of the cases fits. >>>> It was simply a misunderstanding. >>>> Andy wanted to commit samples and integrate mp-config to TomEE. >>>> This is perfectly fine, but the commit comment and the location was very >>>> easy to get misinterpreted. >>>> And that's exactly what happens. >>>> >>>> That's like you forbid your daughter to use your car and then she >> snatches >>>> your keys. >>>> You shout at her, but only after she bursts out in tears you find out >> that >>>> she only wanted to wash your car as a birthday present... >>>> >>>> And now back to work pretty please ;) >>>> >>>> LieGrue, >>>> strub >>>> >>>>> Am 13.02.2018 um 07:38 schrieb dsh <daniel.hais...@gmail.com>: >>>>> >>>>> All, >>>>> >>>>> I followed what David calls "incidents" or "childish" quite closely in >>>> the >>>>> past. Why? Cause such situations are quite familiar to me. I've been >>>> there >>>>> thousands of times and what I can tell for granted is that non of these >>>>> situations are neither "incidents" nor "childish". >>>>> >>>>> As a matter of fact each individual has a certain believe system on one >>>>> hand and on the other hand lives on his/her own island. The latter I >> use >>>> as >>>>> an explanation for the fact that we all have our own perception of what >>>> we >>>>> think reality is and it usually isn't congruent with the perception of >>>>> others. If either your believe systems are conflicting or your >> perception >>>>> of what you think is reality are clashing, you usually have such >>>>> "incidents". >>>>> >>>>> That said I learned the hard way that usually you are not fighting, >> like >>>> in >>>>> this case, about backed out code but it's usually something >>>> inter-personal. >>>>> What makes me wondering especially if I think about all the Twitter and >>>>> Facebook posts where I see you guys hanging out together is, that such, >>>> as >>>>> I suspect it inter-personal conflicts, erupt on the mailing list or >> over >>>>> code commits, where my naive understanding is, that you could talk >>>>> face-to-face to nail down what really drives you crazy. >>>>> >>>>> What I learned is that it doesn't quite help, neither from the >>>> perspective >>>>> of somebody that is involved, nor from the perspective of somebody who >>>> is a >>>>> leader to finger point or to call out individuals. In the end you >> turned >>>>> this into a mess and thus you have to fix it TOGETHER. If necessary you >>>>> could even pull in a coach from outside. I for myself applied for a >> coach >>>>> back in 2015. It's not a silver bullet and does not fix everything you >>>>> screwed up in the past but it sometimes helps to have somebody with a >>>>> neutral view and another opinion. >>>>> >>>>> In the end my perception of reality on my little island is that you all >>>>> bond a very strong team. I saw and worked with teams that were no real >>>> team >>>>> in the end. In your case I don't have such a perception and thus I >>>> believe >>>>> that you get this sorted out in a sustainable manner. Take it as a >> growth >>>>> opportunity! >>>>> >>>>> Cheers >>>>> Daniel >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 6:33 AM, David Blevins < >> david.blev...@gmail.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Ok, community, we have to have another quick talk and then hopefully >> we >>>>>> can go back to being awesome. >>>>>> >>>>>> This thread got very negative and bares a striking resemblance to the >>>>>> "Suffocating Development Environment" thread from the June 27th >>>> incident. >>>>>> Yes, I've written about it enough times in the board reports that I >> have >>>>>> the date memorized. What I've written is mostly positive and been >>>> praised >>>>>> by the board for our handling of a hard situation. You're all making >> a >>>>>> liar out of me. :) >>>>>> >>>>>> I was delicate in the first situation, but now I have to be a bit more >>>>>> direct. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> In the June 27th incident we had Andy committing code, Romain >> reverting >>>>>> it, the two exchanging insults for one hour till Andy quit complaining >>>> that >>>>>> he's working in his spare time implies Romain is killing the project. >>>> Mark >>>>>> joins attempting to take some heat off of Romain. Jon joins >> attempting >>>> to >>>>>> be as neutral as possible. In the end both Mark and Jon apologize. >>>> Andy's >>>>>> code stays reverted. >>>>>> >>>>>> In this incident Andy committed code. Mark and Romain begin arguing. >>>>>> Insults are exchanged for one hour till Andy quits complaining that >> he's >>>>>> working in his spare time and implies Romain is killing the project. >>>> Jon >>>>>> joins attempting to be as neutral as possible. In the end both Mark >> and >>>>>> Jon apologize. Andy's code stays reverted. This time it's all >>>> Tomitribe's >>>>>> fault. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Am I the only one to notice a pattern? That pattern is not one >> person's >>>>>> fault. The pattern is we are behaving like children. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> This will not get better if each of us is expecting the other guy to >>>>>> change. If your only response to this email is find flaws in others, >> I >>>>>> guarantee nothing will get better. >>>>>> >>>>>> Mark, you got there in the end which is great. You pointed out >>>> something >>>>>> you could have done better and something Andy could do better. That's >>>> the >>>>>> right pattern. People are much more willing to accept feedback when >>>> they >>>>>> see you're also willing to accept it. >>>>>> >>>>>> We need to get there sooner next time and we need more than one person >>>>>> doing it. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> So with all that said, how do we turn this into an awesome learning >>>>>> experience that makes us stronger? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -David >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Feb 12, 2018, at 11:22 AM, Andy Gumbrecht < >> agumbre...@tomitribe.com >>>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Added project stubs: https://github.com/apache/ >>>>>> tomee/tree/master/microprofile >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Andy. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 05/02/18 11:17, Jean-Louis Monteiro wrote: >>>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Ok thanks guys. >>>>>>>> @Rudy, you are most welcome :) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Jean-Louis Monteiro >>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/jlouismonteiro >>>>>>>> http://www.tomitribe.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 11:39 AM, Rudy De Busscher < >>>>>> rdebussc...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I think it is a very important spec, also for non-microprofile >>>>>>>>> implementations as it can enhance the interoperability of all >>>> servers. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'm also very interested in the implementation (and want to help a >>>> bit >>>>>> with >>>>>>>>> it also :) ) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> regards >>>>>>>>> Rudy >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 2 February 2018 at 11:23, Mark Struberg >> <strub...@yahoo.de.invalid >>>>> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> To clarify this even further: >>>>>>>>>> The Geronimo Server is now officially dead. >>>>>>>>>> But the Geronimo project is not. It alredy contains quite a few >>>>>> modular >>>>>>>>>> parts which are reused in many ASF projects and also outside. >>>>>>>>>> Examples is the geronimo-transaction-manager, geronimo-javamail, >>>>>>>>>> geronimo-config, xbean-finder, etc >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Of course it would probably make sense to fold those 2 projects >>>>>> together, >>>>>>>>>> as already discussed in the past. >>>>>>>>>> I'm still all open to it, but I have an important criterium to >>>> fulfil: >>>>>>>>>> If we move those portable parts to TomEE, then this would mean >> that >>>>>> TomEE >>>>>>>>>> would become an 'Umbrella project'. >>>>>>>>>> And further that we would need a new name for those portable >> parts. >>>>>>>>>> They would effectively be mainatained by the TomEE community >> (which >>>>>> has a >>>>>>>>>> big overlap with Geronimo anyway) but those parts must clearly be >>>>>>>>>> recognized separately from TomEE. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Otherwise people will assume that those parts only work within >>>> TomEE - >>>>>>>>>> where in reality they would even work on WildFly or Liberty, etc. >> or >>>>>>>>> even a >>>>>>>>>> naked Tomcat. >>>>>>>>>> Got me? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> We might e.g. brand them as 'TomEE Geronimo Spare Parts >> Department' >>>> :) >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> LieGrue, >>>>>>>>>> strub >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> PS: I'd also love to keep the org.apache.geronimo package name to >>>> ease >>>>>>>>>> backward compatibility. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Am 02.02.2018 um 11:08 schrieb Romain Manni-Bucau < >>>>>>>>> rmannibu...@gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>> : >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> 2018-02-02 11:05 GMT+01:00 Otávio Gonçalves de Santana < >>>>>>>>>>> osant...@tomitribe.com>: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Guys, I have a question: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Why not a project to each implementation? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> this is the case but geronimo is used as an umbrella project. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> This way I can use just a specific if I want also. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> exactly the goal and user usage AFAIK ;) >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> long story short: we learnt from the past errors and since always >>>> the >>>>>>>>>> same >>>>>>>>>>> people work on these projects it is better to not split it >> accross >>>> N >>>>>>>>>>> communities since >>>>>>>>>>> it leads to a lot of efforts for these people. Having a single >>>>>> umbrella >>>>>>>>>>> project with N subprojects reduces the administrative work etc >> and >>>>>>>>>> enhance >>>>>>>>>>> the projects productivity. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 7:44 AM, Romain Manni-Bucau < >>>>>>>>>> rmannibu...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi JL, >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Microprofile apache effort is hosted in geronimo and John >> already >>>>>>>>> spoke >>>>>>>>>>>>> about it I think. Would probably saner to keep it all at the >> same >>>>>>>>> place >>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>> the foundation. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Romain Manni-Bucau >>>>>>>>>>>>> @rmannibucau <https://twitter.com/rmannibucau> | Blog >>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://rmannibucau.metawerx.net/> | Old Blog >>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://rmannibucau.wordpress.com> | Github < >> https://github.com/ >>>>>>>>>>>>> rmannibucau> | >>>>>>>>>>>>> LinkedIn <https://www.linkedin.com/in/rmannibucau> | Book >>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.packtpub.com/application-development/java- >>>>>>>>>>>>> ee-8-high-performance> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> 2018-02-02 9:39 GMT+01:00 Jean-Louis Monteiro < >>>>>>>>>> jlmonte...@tomitribe.com >>>>>>>>>>>>> : >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was wondering if we could have the Microprofile JWT >>>> implemented >>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>> TomEE. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> What do you think? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was reading the spec and I'd like to contribute that in. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jean-Louis >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jean-Louis Monteiro >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/jlouismonteiro >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.tomitribe.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Andy Gumbrecht >>>>>>> https://twitter.com/AndyGeeDe >>>>>>> http://www.tomitribe.com >>>>>>> https://www.tomitribe.io >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ubique >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>> >> >>
