They are NOT apart of the main build. I take care of those manually. Thanks, Rod.
Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 25, 2023, at 8:40 AM, Jonathan S. Fisher <exabr...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Richard: thank you sir, I see my key in there. > Rod: Are the docker images part of the main build? I don't use Docker > professionally, so I'm not very familiar with the whole process. > > I see Tomcat 9.0.82 in tomee-8.x. Yeehaw! > > Does anyone have an issue with me updating to eclipselink 2.7.13? > https://github.com/eclipse-ee4j/eclipselink/releases/tag/2.7.13 We've > been running TomEE 8.0.15 with 2.7.13 in production for a few weeks > and haven't seen any issues. > > >> On Tue, Oct 24, 2023 at 10:18 AM Rod Jenkins <r...@rodandmichelle.com> wrote: >> >> Is there anyway to test the keys before we deploy? We have issues in the >> past with new keys and verifying the packages when the docker images are >> built. >> >> Thanks, >> Rod. >> >>> >>>> On Oct 24, 2023, at 9:06 AM, Richard Zowalla <r...@apache.org> wrote: >>> >>> Added to https://dist.apache.org/repos/dist/release/tomee/KEYS >>> >>>> Am Dienstag, dem 24.10.2023 um 08:54 -0500 schrieb Jonathan S. 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Oktober 2023 21:48:22 MESZ schrieb "Jonathan S. Fisher" >>>>> <jfis...@apache.org>: >>>>>> Attached! Thank you! >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, Oct 21, 2023 at 7:42 PM Richard Zowalla >>>>>> <rich...@zowalla.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Just send it in the required ascii armored format via your >>>>>>> apache mail (or via die web ui on lists.apache.org after login. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I can take care of it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Am 22. Oktober 2023 01:05:53 MESZ schrieb "Jonathan S. Fisher" >>>>>>> <exabr...@gmail.com>: >>>>>>>> Richard thanks. Anyone on this thread able to add me to the >>>>>>>> KEYS file? >>>>>>>> I'd like to give this a roll :) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> cheers, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Thu, Oct 19, 2023 at 7:12 AM Jamie Johnson >>>>>>>> <jej2...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Just checking in on this. Anything the community can do to >>>>>>>>> facilitate the >>>>>>>>> release? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, Oct 17, 2023 at 9:58 AM Richard Zowalla >>>>>>>>> <rich...@zowalla.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> see https://tomee.apache.org/dev/release-tomee.html >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Might be beneficial to join the ASF slack with your >>>>>>>>>> apache.org mail. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Starting the VOTE, moving artifacts to release area as >>>>>>>>>> well as updating >>>>>>>>>> https://downloads.apache.org/tomee/KEYS needs to be done >>>>>>>>>> by a PMC member. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Gruß >>>>>>>>>> Richard >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Am 17. Oktober 2023 15:50:33 MESZ schrieb "Jonathan S. >>>>>>>>>> Fisher" < >>>>>>>>>> exabr...@gmail.com>: >>>>>>>>>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >>>>>>>>>>> Hash: SHA512 >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ello other TomEE committers :) >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> If I wanted to cut 8.0.16, how do I do that? My >>>>>>>>>>> personal GPG key is >>>>>>>>>>> 871638A21A7F2C38066471420306A354336B4F0D. I'll sign >>>>>>>>>>> this text block to >>>>>>>>>>> prove I have control of my key. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Thank you! >>>>>>>>>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> iLkEARMKAB0WIQSHFjiiGn8sOAZkcUIDBqNUM2tPDQUCZS6RIAAKCRA >>>>>>>>>>> DBqNUM2tP >>>>>>>>>>> DYahAgkBNYn+LlIdFttvNW6KAJXHgNEQxmjJ6ALb7VaaEdqAXjMNxwg >>>>>>>>>>> lLQQQVOVY >>>>>>>>>>> NtRxRj5nHDOXUVqwLjftisxyNnAkx50CCQHYbqySGYuWOxMdS8jsDGA >>>>>>>>>>> 2/UjTp0ib >>>>>>>>>>> RkLoChrMvppzIK5GOvd0UyBKmrvG3dkzJwQllPZ3EYvNZfLyl+/K5oO >>>>>>>>>>> shg== >>>>>>>>>>> =d0gl >>>>>>>>>>> -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Oct 14, 2023 at 6:12 AM Jamie Johnson >>>>>>>>>>> <jej2...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Looks like tomcat 9.0.82 was released! >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 11, 2023 at 12:54 PM Jamie Johnson >>>>>>>>>>>> <jej2...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Looks right to me as well. Thanks Richard! >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 11, 2023 at 12:45 PM Richard Zowalla >>>>>>>>>>>>> <rich...@zowalla.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think we are running into >>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://bz.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=67664 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> This requires 9.0.82 to become available. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> They are already voting: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/qro48x3xnvhvvxxv3h >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wnqnnsrrry773j >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> After 9.0.82 becomes available, we are most >>>>>>>>>>>>>> likely in a good shape to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> start a release >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gruß >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Richard >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am 11. Oktober 2023 18:14:09 MESZ schrieb Richard >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Zowalla < >>>>>>>>>>>>>> rich...@zowalla.com>: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It seems the Tomcat upgrade breaks some >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> connection pool related >>>>>>>>>> tests. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I guess we need to check our integration code >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to fix it: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> https://ci-builds.apache.org/job/Tomee/job/tomee-8.x-build-full-java8/lastCompletedBuild/testReport/ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So if anyone wants to dig, feel free. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am 11. Oktober 2023 16:56:27 MESZ schrieb Jamie >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Johnson < >>>>>>>>>>>>>> jej2...@gmail.com>: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There are other vulnerabilities (pulled from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://osv.dev/) >>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>>> can be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> addressed, but need to be reviewed. The >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> format below is dependency >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> current_version (fix_version). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> org.apache.httpcomponents:httpclient 4.2.2 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (>= 4.5.13) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> GHSA-2x83-r56g-cv47 (4.2.3), GHSA-7r82-7xv7- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> xcpj >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (4.5.13), GHSA-fmj5-wv96-r2ch (4.3.6), GHSA- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cfh5-3ghh-wfjx (4.3.5) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> xalan:xalan 2.7.2 (2.7.3) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> GHSA-9339-86wc-4qgf (2.7.3) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> org.apache.commons:commons-compress 1.14 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (>=1.24.0) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> GHSA-hrmr-f5m6-m9pq (1.18), GHSA-xqfj-vm6h- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2x34 (1.22), >>>>>>>>>>>>>> GHSA-h436-432x-8fvx >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (1.16), GHSA-crv7-7245-f45f (1.21), GHSA- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mc84-pj99-q6hh >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (1.21), GHSA-7hfm-57qf-j43q (1.21), GHSA- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cgwf-w82q-5jrr (1.24.0) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> org.eclipse.jetty:jetty-server >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 9.4.49.v20220914 (9.4.51.v20230217) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> GHSA-qw69-rqj8-6qw8 (9.4.51.v20230217), GHSA- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> p26g-97m4-6q7c >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (9.4.51.v20230217) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> org.eclipse.jetty:jetty-http 9.4.49.v20220914 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (>=9.4.53) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> GHSA-hmr7-m48g-48f6 (9.4.52), GHSA-wgh7-54f2- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> x98r (9.4.53) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> org.eclipse.jetty:jetty-servlets >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 9.4.49.v20220914 (9.4.53) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> GHSA-3gh6-v5v9-6v9j (9.4.53) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> org.apache.sshd:sshd-core 2.1.0 (>=2.10.0) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> GHSA-9279-7hph-r3xw (2.7.0), GHSA-fhw8-8j55- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vwgq >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (2.9.2), GHSA-mjmq-gwgm-5qhm (2.10.0) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> com.google.code.gson:gson 2.2.4 (2.8.9) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> GHSA-4jrv-ppp4-jm57 (2.8.9) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> org.webjars:handlebars 1.2.1 (4.7.7) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> GHSA-f2jv-r9rf-7988 (4.7.7) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> org.apache.ivy:ivy 2.3.0 (>= 2.5.2) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> GHSA-wv7w-rj2x-556x (2.5.1), GHSA-2jc4-r94c- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rp7h (2.5.2) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 11, 2023 at 6:49 AM Jamie Johnson >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <jej2...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How deep down the rabbit hole should the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dependency checks >>>>>>>>>> normally >>>>>>>>>>>>>> go? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Looks like the big ones I was tracking with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> security updates were >>>>>>>>>>>>>> done. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> johnzon 1.2.21 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tomcat 9.0.81 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bouncy castle 1.76 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Still poking around a bit but there’s >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> obviously a lot. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 11, 2023 at 2:09 AM Richard >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Zowalla <r...@apache.org >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In theory, every committer can act as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> release manager. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There are some steps in the process, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which requires PMC karma, >>>>>>>>>> though >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (such as adding a key to the KEYS file, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> moving stuff to the >>>>>>>>>> release >>>>>>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on SVN, start the VOTE, etc.). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The process is documented here: [1] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That being said: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am currently planning to start the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> release process for TomEE >>>>>>>>>> 9.1.1 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> within this week. Due to the Tomcat >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> security issues released >>>>>>>>>>>>>> yesterday, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we need to do some backporting, which >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will consume additional >>>>>>>>>> time. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (It >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just interrupted my preparations, so it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> needs additional CI / >>>>>>>>>> TCK >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cycles) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A release usally consumes around 1-3 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hours of work. Mostly >>>>>>>>>> because >>>>>>>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have to wait for stuff being build or to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> run some basic sanity >>>>>>>>>> checks >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> before starting and to not forget any >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> step. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What would really help for a TomEE 8.0.16 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is to carefully >>>>>>>>>> re-check >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> current dependencies for important 3rd >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> party dependencies (and >>>>>>>>>> update >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if needed. Note: Each update or bunch of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> updates shouldn't >>>>>>>>>> break the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> build. A full build on CI takes around 4- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 8 hours) on that >>>>>>>>>> branch, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> build >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it locally and conduct some sanity checks >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (for example: same >>>>>>>>>> lib in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> different versions in /lib -> check and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fix) with the created >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tar.gz/zip files. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is one of the steps, which usually >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> consumes a lot of time. >>>>>>>>>> If >>>>>>>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> want to give it a try, I am happy to help >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out for the steps >>>>>>>>>> which >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> require PMC involvement. Otherwise, I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> might find some time in >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> next >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> week to start a release of 8.0.16 - just >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> let me know and I can >>>>>>>>>> plan >>>>>>>>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> time accordingly ;-) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gruß >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Richard >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [1] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://tomee.apache.org/dev/release-tomee.html >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am Dienstag, dem 10.10.2023 um 17:56 - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 0500 schrieb Jonathan S. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fisher: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jean-Louis, are there directions >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anywhere? Not promising >>>>>>>>>> anything >>>>>>>>>>>>>> :) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Oct 10, 2023 at 5:22 PM Jean- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Louis Monteiro >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <jlmonte...@tomitribe.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Whomever is committer can do it. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was just trying to give you an >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> honest reply regarding my >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> availabilities >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and give visibility to the rest of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the community and the >>>>>>>>>> other >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> committers >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at the same time. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hope it helps. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Le mar. 10 oct. 2023, 23:27, Jamie >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Johnson < >>>>>>>>>> jej2...@gmail.com> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> écrit : >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I’m not sure what that entails or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who would go about >>>>>>>>>> doing it. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> community or contributor driven >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thing? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Oct 10, 2023 at 3:25 PM >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jean-Louis Monteiro < >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> jlmonte...@tomitribe.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think most of the energy is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> currently on TomEE 9 and >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> new >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> TomEE 10. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've also noticed some Tomcat CVE >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> today if I remember >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correctly. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm all hands on TomEE 10 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> currently because we need to >>>>>>>>>> fill >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> feature >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gaps on all implementations. So >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> speaking about myself, >>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>>>>>> sure >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I can >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> trigger a build and deliver the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> whole process in the >>>>>>>>>> next >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> couple of days >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> weeks. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If someone can do it, I'm happy >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to review, test and >>>>>>>>>> vote on >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> release. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jean-Louis Monteiro >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/jlouismonteiro >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.tomitribe.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Oct 10, 2023 at 5:48 PM >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jamie Johnson >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <jej2...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is there a timeline for the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> release of 8.0.16? There >>>>>>>>>> are a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> few >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> security >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> issues associated with johnzon >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that we’d like to >>>>>>>>>> leverage >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> while we >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> migrate >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to a newer version of TomEE. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>> Jonathan | exabr...@gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>> Pessimists, see a jar as half empty. Optimists, in >>>>>>>>>>> contrast, see it as >>>>>>>>>>> half full. >>>>>>>>>>> Engineers, of course, understand the glass is twice as >>>>>>>>>>> big as it needs to >>>>>>>>>> be. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Jonathan | exabr...@gmail.com >>>>>>>> Pessimists, see a jar as half empty. Optimists, in contrast, >>>>>>>> see it as >>>>>>>> half full. >>>>>>>> Engineers, of course, understand the glass is twice as big as >>>>>>>> it needs to be. >>> > > > > -- > Jonathan | exabr...@gmail.com > Pessimists, see a jar as half empty. Optimists, in contrast, see it as > half full. > Engineers, of course, understand the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
