On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 4:54 PM Stephen John Smoogen <smo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 19 Nov 2019 at 09:17, Gerald Henriksen <ghenr...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > On Mon, 18 Nov 2019 21:08:02 -0800, you wrote: > > > > >On 11/18/19 7:29 PM, Neal Gompa wrote: > > >> I can't speak for everyone, but at least my experience was that it was > > >> functionally impossible to discover how to package Java stuff. In a > > >> lifetime (and a job) ago, I was much more engaged in the Java > > >> ecosystem. Back then, I tried to learn how to package and ship Java > > >> stuff in Fedora. But the documentation was (and still is) incredibly > > >> poor. I only managed to package one library, and it was not easy for > > >> me to figure out how to do it. The amount of effort I expended to do > > >> it put me off to doing more in the Java ecosystem. > > > > > >Maybe I misunderstood the earlier comment. I understand that Java can > > >be difficult to package, but I thought Gerald was saying that using > > >modules somehow made it easier. > > > > I have no idea whether modules make it easier or not. > > > > My point was that the Java SIG collapsed long before the modules > > became an issue, so "rebooting" the Java SIG isn't going to change > > anything unless those calling for the reboot come up with packagers > > for the Java ecosystem. > > > > Let us be clear here.. Java and Fedora have never done well. The > original 'Everything must be broken into separate parts and > integrated' vs 'the ecosystem bundles everything' was with Java and > made anyone working with Java in Fedora grind teeth on either being > way behind on some software or not having it all in Fedora. The > problem is that work was unmaintainable especially when the entire > ecosystem is built around having bundles of software where you only > needed 1-2 classes from a specific zip. Then there is a bunch of stuff > in these languages where you need to rebuild things in a specific > order or multiple times or a dozen other things using tools you need > but no one is maintaining. The original SIG was a bunch of hero > maintainers who said 'ok I am going to make this happen' and put in a > hell of an effort to get a lot of stuff unbundled and integrated. [At > the time in I think Fedora 8-10 timeframe, there was a large push by > certain people to get rid of all Java from the OS because it could not > be properly integrated. ] > > Over time these hero's burnt out just like the hero's who have > maintained perl, php, TeX, Nodejs, and many other stacks have. > Modules are basically a last gasp for them to trying to keep this > maintainable for the last hero maintainers. They allow for you to spec > out a lot of grunt work of building X before Y so you can rebuild Y > with X. They allow you to say I needed this thing but I am not > maintaining it so I am not shipping it... if someone will take it over > I can remove that hidden part but I don't have time to keep this up. > > It isn't just a matter of trying to build a team to maintain these... > it is a lot of work dealing with things volunteer packagers* don't > have time for: > o) Documenting each package > o) Documenting how to break apart X into usable rpm packages > o) Writing scripts to try and automate that in the rpmbuild parts > o) Deal with the fact that every upstream software is slightly > different (aka perl Makefile.pl output is never the same) > o) Keep up with the fact that every other upstream release has > decided to add N dependencies which are either not in Fedora or not > the version in Fedora. > > Doing this with a team means a lot of time coordinating with each > other. That means spending a lot of time in meetings with each other > or ending getting burnt too many times with Packager B updating Y > which breaks your Z. [Modular streams are supposed to help you on > this.. but it just makes it a combinatoric headache you have to deal > with even more meetings to keep from happening.] Most volunteers don't > like meetings, and they usually don't have time for them.. so we end > up with a very fractured space. Most of the problems we are seeing > with modules are from fractures already there but only shown when > FTBFS happened in the past. > > * I am going to be very clear here. Even if Red Hat pays someone a > salary, most of our work on Fedora is volunteer time. Our main job is > probably only related to the packages we put in by the fact we need it > to complete said job. We usually don't have time to much more than > people who have weekends on something. > Couldn't have expressed better what I think !!! > > > > -- > Stephen J Smoogen. > _______________________________________________ > devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org > To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org > Fedora Code of Conduct: > https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ > List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines > List Archives: > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org > -- Alexander Kurtakov Red Hat Eclipse Team
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