On Sun, May 07, 2000 at 07:57:05PM -0700, Lawrence W. Leung wrote:
> > But even so it is static. The client does not have to worry about 
> > connecting to
> > different nodes, only that it has one to connect to. Like news, most people
> > don't run news servers locally, but they still don't want to put the news
> > severs name in every message since they are almost definitely using the same
> > one every time.
> 
> I think you're misunderstanding what should be the usual use of the url.
> I dont intend users to access data with a specific server in mind.
> That was what the freenet:///<key> setup was for.  (soon to be
> freenet:<key> it seems)
> 
> But how will you do a server specific connection if necessary?
> Most of the time you wont have to but we still should make it an option.
> 
> Ok, say we have a web browser integrated with freenet.
> If it doesn't have any default servers (or any that are working),
> wouldn't it be better to let users access data like they do through the
> web? (ie <protocol>://<server>/<document ref>)

This is tempting people to use this type of URL in hypertext documents,
which is exactly what we don't want.  If someone really wants to access a
specific Freenet server, they might as well go off and edit their ~/.freenet
file.  I am completely for the freenet:<key> setup because it does not even
*imply* that someone can stick a server name and port in there.  And fuck
what the IANA says about URL formats.  Their just a centralized bureaucratic
organization working in the interests of the corporations.  The only Internet
standards body that I listen to at all is the IETF.

> Currently it'll default to localhost:19114 if there's no host.
> Soon there'll be a ~./freenet file like you suggested.  So this is only
> intended to be a secondary option.
> 
> 
> > > With the current scheme it does default to localhost:19114.
> > > Just use: freenet:///<key>
> > > 
> > > Most users I've talked to like this scheme.
> > 
> > Fuck the users, most users you have talked to have no clue what Freenet is. 
> > Data
> > on Freenet is located via it's key. The entrance address is irrelevant, 
> > putting
> > it in the data's URL is completely misleading, even if you have a the 
> > ability
> > not to.
> > > Just having the tag "free:" is confusing.  You save 3 letters but loose
> > > user friendliness. (free?? what the heck is free?)  You throw user
> > > friendliness out of the window with "KHK-SHA1" and "CHK-SHA1".
> > 
> > What the heck is freenet? And, by golly, what they heck is http, I bet you
> > that 90% of all users don't have a clue?
> 
> Part of the freenet's goal is to keep information free right?
> Arent we just wasting our time if we disregard the usability question
> and effectively block out the less technically inclined part of the world?
> 
> Lets not take a "fuck the user" approach and keep sight of our goals here.

Yes, our goal is to make documents fully decentralized.  By merely *allowing*
a server name and port in the URL it is encouraging centralization.

> Most users dont know what http stands for... so what? they've learnt to
> associate it with the web.
> Users of freenet will do the same.  In fact it'll be even easier for them
> to understand if we use the tag "freenet://".  
> 
> The fact that they *can* specifiy an entry point doesnt mean that they
> will.  (Do users usually choose what port to access when using http?)

No, but that is because web usually uses that same port on all machines,
which is the default port.

> Using a separate argument works with command line interfaces, but what
> happens when we integrate it into a web browser?  How will these browsers
> access info using another entry point?

There is always ~/.freenet.

> Misleading?  Maybe.  But it's a useful feature to have from a client point
> of view.
> 
> Thoughts?
> -Larry
> 
> 
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-- 
Travis Bemann
Sendmail is still screwed up on my box.
My email address is really bemann at execpc.com

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