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Today's Topics:
1. Re: GMP/GCJ update. (Mark J. Roberts)
2. RE: Aardvark (Benjamin Coates)
3. Re: [Freenet-dev] brazilian conspiracy --> HUH??? (Kyle Smalley)
4. RE: Proposal: algorithm for forgetting documents in datastore (Neil
Barsema)
5. Re: Announcement Protocol (Ruediger Kapitza)
6. RE: Aardvark (Stephen Tidey)
7. Re: Aardvark (Tavin Cole)
8. Re: Proposal: algorithm for forgetting documents in datastore (Tavin Cole)
9. Re: Aardvark (Oskar Sandberg)
10. Re: Aardvark (Oskar Sandberg)
11. RE: Proposal: algorithm for forgetting documents in datastore (Neil
Barsema)
12. Re: GMP/GCJ update. (Theodore Hong)
--__--__--
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 20:29:59 -0500 (EST)
From: "Mark J. Roberts" <[email protected]>
To: <devl at freenetproject.org>
Subject: Re: [freenet-devl] GMP/GCJ update.
Reply-To: devl at freenetproject.org
On Wed, 31 Jan 2001, Mark J. Roberts wrote:
> On Tue, 30 Jan 2001, Adam Langley wrote:
>
> > On Tue, Jan 30, 2001 at 12:36:58PM -0600, Steven Hazel wrote:
> > > > Okay. This seems rather easy, and I could probably do the bulk of
> > > > the work, but I need someone fluent in C to check it
> > > > out. Volunteers?
> > >
> > > I can help you with the C.
> >
> > I'll certainly help if I can.
>
> I've been mauling this method in vain, trying to convert it to working
> C++. The shifts seem to be confusticated and befuddled. The first if
Fixed. Just typecasting nonsense.
--
Mark Roberts
mjr at statesmean.com
--__--__--
Message: 2
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 21:17:17 -0500
From: Benjamin Coates <[email protected]>
To: devl at freenetproject.org
Subject: RE: [freenet-devl] Aardvark
Reply-To: devl at freenetproject.org
>From Oskar Sandberg <md98-osa at nada.kth.se>
>For fucks sake people, YOU DON'T LINK TO KSKS! It's fucking nuts!
>
>On Wed, Jan 31, 2001 at 05:02:03PM -0500, Benjamin Coates wrote:
>> I've been inserting a mirror of Steve's key index at KSK at KeyIndex.txt as a
>> trivial example of a date-based redirect.
ok, also available through:
freenet:SSK at TQJ7s8pQWqnrCG5CM0QTC5gRdAgQAgE/KeyIndex_0.txt
--
Benjamin Coates
--__--__--
Message: 3
From: "Kyle Smalley" <[email protected]>
To: <devl at freenetproject.org>
Subject: Re: [freenet-devl] [Freenet-dev] brazilian conspiracy --> HUH???
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 01:25:52 -0600
Reply-To: devl at freenetproject.org
> > Valeu galera o Brazil impera !!!!
>
> I ran this thru babelfish.altavista.com and got:
>
> "We will force Freenet to bow to the might of the unstoppable Brazilian
> empire!!"
>
> I am terrified for the future of this project.
>
>
> g
And I am terrified for what you just wrote. Let's not mention the grammar
mistakes made by the guy who wrote the sentence "Valeu galera o Brazil
impera" (which should be "Valeu, galera. O Brasil impera."). He was
obviously (to us people who speak both Portuguese and English) thanking
people for any help offered ("valeu, galera" could be roughly translated
into "thanks, guys") and also making a rhyming joke, using the Brazilian
version of the widely used expression *X rulez*. So, "o Brazil impera" could
be understood as "Brazil rulez". Now, how you've come to that silly sentence
about the Brazilian empire, man... it takes a lot of imagination, believe
me. That's why we translators *HATE* machine translations. Hmph.
Juliana.
--__--__--
Message: 4
From: "Neil Barsema" <[email protected]>
To: <devl at freenetproject.org>
Subject: RE: [freenet-devl] Proposal: algorithm for forgetting documents in
datastore
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 09:56:40 +0100
Reply-To: devl at freenetproject.org
Theo wrote ;
>The putative problem is that there might exist a file A that "belongs" on
>a node N but has few hits and a file B that "doesn't belong" on that node
but
>has lots of hits. In this situation B is (supposedly wrongly) preferred
>to A.
No, hits are still a lot stronger reason for persistance on a node than
routing decisions.
Remember my suggestion is that if a file gets a hit it jumps to the front of
the queue but if a file is instrumental in a routing decision it only
changes places with its neigbour.
So in the case where there are two files not getting any hits anymore, the
node will favor the one that is not getting any hits but would be getting
them if it was popular over the one that is not getting hits here but might
be getting hits on another node. (for instance the cashed results of the
node owner's queries)
What this could achieve, given enough recources, is files remaining on
Freenet without getting hits .
Neil
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http://www.uprizer.com/mailman/listinfo/devl
--__--__--
Message: 5
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 10:05:34 +0100 (MET)
From: Ruediger Kapitza <[email protected]>
To: <devl at freenetproject.org>
Subject: Re: [freenet-devl] Announcement Protocol
Reply-To: devl at freenetproject.org
Hi!
After reading the proposel there appeared some questions to me:
First if I'm Alice I have to trust Bob1 fully. This means
if he is the evil node then there is no chance.
If he is a nice evil node he would modify some return
message all the time and Alice would time after time restart the
Annoncement again. If Bob1 is a real evil node he would give me
a special chain with some kind of monitor nodes (Americans would say NSA
or ?). So at the beginning all requests from Alice could be recorded.
Maybe later after some time if more and more Ref are in the Datastore this
is no longer such an issue.
Anyway if I'm Alice my Bob1 must be trusted because its a Ref form some
friend or other trusted party.
But even if Bob2 is the evil evil node up to 90% (or so) are special evil
nodes for Alice later on. Of course for Bob3...N the amount of evil nodes
gets smaller and smaller and there is no reason anymore.
After that for me there is the question why not just ask Bob1 for some
Refs. (I have to trust him anyway) And with that group of Refs start some
kind of consensus algo. about the Keyspace which Alice should hold.
Okay break this here because maybe there are already some strong arguments
against Bob1 to tell me a bunch of refs because of routing or maybe
the first part of my feelings are wrong.
If both is not the case I would maybe make some real sugestions for a
dist. alog. for conssnsus. There are some form Dolev or Burns & Neiger or
so.
Rueiger
--__--__--
Message: 6
From: Stephen Tidey <[email protected]>
To: "'devl at freenetproject.org'" <devl at freenetproject.org>
Subject: RE: [freenet-devl] Aardvark
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 09:58:03 -0000
Reply-To: devl at freenetproject.org
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Well that's a bit provocative! I haven't been in this group for long but I
would of thought that you would have at least given an explanation why
rather than just shout at everyone?
-----Original Message-----
From: Oskar Sandberg [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: 31 January 2001 23:27
To: devl at freenetproject.org
Subject: Re: [freenet-devl] Aardvark
For fucks sake people, YOU DON'T LINK TO KSKS! It's fucking nuts!
On Wed, Jan 31, 2001 at 05:02:03PM -0500, Benjamin Coates wrote:
> >From Ian Clarke <ian at octayne.com>
> >I think that given that Aardvark has been down for the last few days, we
> >should remove it from the FProxy gateway page for 0.3.7.
> >
> >Any suggestions for an alternative?
> >
> >Ian.
>
> I've been inserting a mirror of Steve's key index at KSK at KeyIndex.txt as a
> trivial example of a date-based redirect.
>
> --
> Benjamin Coates
>
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<TITLE>RE: [freenet-devl] Aardvark</TITLE>
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<BODY>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Well that's a bit provocative! I haven't been =
in this group for long but I would of thought that you would have at =
least given an explanation why rather than just shout at =
everyone?</FONT></P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>-----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: Oskar Sandberg [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:md98-osa at nada.kth.se">mailto:md98-osa at nada.kth.se</A>]</F=
ONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Sent: 31 January 2001 23:27</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To: devl at freenetproject.org</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: Re: [freenet-devl] Aardvark</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>For fucks sake people, YOU DON'T LINK TO KSKS! It's =
fucking nuts!</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>On Wed, Jan 31, 2001 at 05:02:03PM -0500, Benjamin =
Coates wrote:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> >From Ian Clarke =
<ian at octayne.com></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> >I think that given that Aardvark has been =
down for the last few days, we</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> >should remove it from the FProxy gateway =
page for 0.3.7.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> ></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> >Any suggestions for an alternative?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> ></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> >Ian.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> I've been inserting a mirror of Steve's key =
index at KSK at KeyIndex.txt as a </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> trivial example of a date-based =
redirect.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> --</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Benjamin Coates</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> </FONT>
</P>
</BODY>
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--__--__--
Message: 7
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 05:52:48 -0500
From: Tavin Cole <[email protected]>
To: devl at freenetproject.org
Subject: Re: [freenet-devl] Aardvark
Reply-To: devl at freenetproject.org
On Thu, Feb 01, 2001 at 09:58:03AM -0000, Stephen Tidey wrote:
> Well that's a bit provocative! I haven't been in this group for long but I
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
don't worry, I'm sure that was directed quite specifically
at people who have ;-)
> would of thought that you would have at least given an explanation why
> rather than just shout at everyone?
An evil node can easily spoof a KSK. Plus someone else can easily steal
your KSK if it falls off enough of the network. People can also play
tricks like finding a node that doesn't have the key in its cache
(by requesting with HTL=1) and then inserting it with HTL=1. There's
supposed to be a random chance to keep forwarding a request with HTL=1
but even so, the attacker still has a chance.
> > For fucks sake people, YOU DON'T LINK TO KSKS! It's fucking nuts!
--
// Tavin Cole
--__--__--
Message: 8
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 06:02:43 -0500
From: Tavin Cole <[email protected]>
To: devl at freenetproject.org
Subject: Re: [freenet-devl] Proposal: algorithm for forgetting documents in
datastore
Reply-To: devl at freenetproject.org
On Thu, Feb 01, 2001 at 09:56:40AM +0100, Neil Barsema wrote:
> Theo wrote ;
> >The putative problem is that there might exist a file A that "belongs" on
> >a node N but has few hits and a file B that "doesn't belong" on that node
> but
> >has lots of hits. In this situation B is (supposedly wrongly) preferred
> >to A.
>
> No, hits are still a lot stronger reason for persistance on a node than
> routing decisions.
> Remember my suggestion is that if a file gets a hit it jumps to the front of
> the queue but if a file is instrumental in a routing decision it only
> changes places with its neigbour.
There is no way "a file can be instrumental in a routing decision" ..
you're talking nonsense here. I can see how the structure of the 0.3
datastore could lead to this misconception, but files and references
are going to be much more orthogonal in 0.4 anyway.
The best interpretation of what you just said is that, if a node successfully
routes a request for a file that was not in its datastore, it should
promote the file that was originally associated with the reference used
in the routing decision. So you would be promoting a file because it's
close to a key that's popular on another node. How would that help
matters?
> So in the case where there are two files not getting any hits anymore, the
> node will favor the one that is not getting any hits but would be getting
> them if it was popular over the one that is not getting hits here but might
> be getting hits on another node. (for instance the cashed results of the
> node owner's queries)
>
> What this could achieve, given enough recources, is files remaining on
> Freenet without getting hits .
--
// Tavin Cole
--__--__--
Message: 9
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 12:05:15 +0100
From: Oskar Sandberg <[email protected]>
To: devl at freenetproject.org
Subject: Re: [freenet-devl] Aardvark
Reply-To: devl at freenetproject.org
On Wed, Jan 31, 2001 at 04:04:51PM -0800, Mr.Bad wrote:
> >>>>> "OS" == Oskar Sandberg <md98-osa at nada.kth.se> writes:
>
> OS> For fucks sake people, YOU DON'T LINK TO KSKS! It's fucking
> OS> nuts!
>
> Why not? Jeez!
What rock have you been under???
Linking to a KSK means "I want to you to check out a document written by
anybody who wanted to place a document under the term <KSK value> which
may or may not be the same document I got when I requested that key."
This why we have the secure keys, so that you can link to a document and
know that the person following the link will get the same document you
did, if they get anything at all. Because signed keys are hard to
remember, the risk of the person getting the wrong document _may_ be worth
it if your telling somebody about a site by word of mouth, but if you are
making a link, there is NO excuse not to use a secure key to the site.
How utterly depressing, widespread gratutious use of KSKs WILL KILL
Freenet, and not even people here care...
>
> ~Mr. Bad
>
> --
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> /\____/\ Mr. Bad <mr.bad at pigdog.org>
> \ / Pigdog Journal | http://pigdog.org/ | *Stay*Real*Bad*
> | (X \x)
> ( ((**) "If it's not bad, don't do it.
> \ <vvv> If it's not crazy, don't say it." - Ben Franklin
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> _______________________________________________
> Devl mailing list
> Devl at freenetproject.org
> http://www.uprizer.com/mailman/listinfo/devl
--
'DeCSS would be fine. Where is it?'
'Here,' Montag touched his head.
'Ah,' Granger smiled and nodded.
Oskar Sandberg
md98-osa at nada.kth.se
--__--__--
Message: 10
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 12:10:28 +0100
From: Oskar Sandberg <[email protected]>
To: devl at freenetproject.org
Subject: Re: [freenet-devl] Aardvark
Reply-To: devl at freenetproject.org
On Wed, Jan 31, 2001 at 04:31:15PM -0800, Mr.Bad wrote:
> >>>>> "DOS" == Oskar Sandberg <md98-osa at nada.kth.se> writes:
>
> BC> I've been inserting a mirror of Steve's key index at
> BC> KSK at KeyIndex.txt as a trivial example of a date-based redirect.
>
> DOS> For fucks sake people, YOU DON'T LINK TO KSKS! It's fucking
> DOS> nuts!
>
> The more I think about this, the more I get mad. What the fuck do you
> mean, don't link to KSKs? What alternative are you talking about?
> SSKs? Are SSKs really SOOOOOOO much better that KSKs are completely
> ridiculous -- "fucking nuts"? Why even HAVE KSKs, then?
Yes, they are SOOOOOOOO much better.
We have KSKs for two reasons:
1) Ian thinks there is a such a thing a "guessable" key, and wants that.
2) We cannot stop them, they are really just signing keys with a publicly
known private key value, so they will always be possible.
> If you're suggesting only linking to CHKs, well, that's pretty wrong,
> and I don't think you understand the thread. I don't think we have a
> mechanism for doing date-based redirects with CHKs, unless I'm
> grievously mistaken. Same goes for SVKs.
>
> What the hell is your point, Oskar? Could you make it more clear? Or
> are you being purposely cryptic? I find it hard to take your advice
> when you yell it at me.
I apologize profusely for assuming that you had understood the first thing
about anything in the several months you have been making noise here...
>
> ~Mr. Bad
>
> --
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> /\____/\ Mr. Bad <mr.bad at pigdog.org>
> \ / Pigdog Journal | http://pigdog.org/ | *Stay*Real*Bad*
> | (X \x)
> ( ((**) "If it's not bad, don't do it.
> \ <vvv> If it's not crazy, don't say it." - Ben Franklin
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> _______________________________________________
> Devl mailing list
> Devl at freenetproject.org
> http://www.uprizer.com/mailman/listinfo/devl
--
'DeCSS would be fine. Where is it?'
'Here,' Montag touched his head.
'Ah,' Granger smiled and nodded.
Oskar Sandberg
md98-osa at nada.kth.se
--__--__--
Message: 11
From: "Neil Barsema" <[email protected]>
To: <devl at freenetproject.org>
Subject: RE: [freenet-devl] Proposal: algorithm for forgetting documents in
datastore
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 12:38:24 +0100
Reply-To: devl at freenetproject.org
Tavin Cole wrote
>There is no way "a file can be instrumental in a routing decision" ..
>you're talking nonsense here.
>I can see how the structure of the 0.3
>datastore could lead to this misconception, but files and references
>are going to be much more orthogonal in 0.4 anyway.
>The best interpretation of what you just said is that, if a node
successfully
>routes a request for a file that was not in its datastore, it should
>promote the file that was originally associated with the reference used
>in the routing decision. So you would be promoting a file because it's
>close to a key that's popular on another node. How would that help
>matters?
Hm for nonsense you pretty much got the concept well enough to see a way to
implement it in the current technical solution. I apologise for missing this
development I have been away ;-)
anyway ok, the file originally associated with the reference gets a tiny
bump.
that's basicly my suggestion.
Now to how that will help matters.
Your not promoting a file that is close to a key that is popular on another
node(well you are but thats besides the point), you are promoting a file
that is close to a key that some other node thought your node should be
serving.
Basicly files competing against deletion are all pretty unpopular. Either
because they aren't close enough to the keyspace focus or because they are
outright unpopular.
What people don't seem te get is I am fighting for unpopular files!
If the outright unpopular file gets deleted chances are it is going to fall
out of Freenet altogether.
however if we delete the file that just isn't close enough to the focus we
are probably just reducing (unnescasary) redundancy in the network.
My suggestion in no way guaranties the unpopular file will persists it just
improves its chances.
But okay, if no one sees the merrit in the suggestion I'll stop pushing it,
I'll go back to pushing request forking. Has that been implemented yet ;-)
Neil
--__--__--
Message: 12
From: Theodore Hong <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [freenet-devl] GMP/GCJ update.
To: devl at freenetproject.org
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 12:10:28 +0000 (GMT)
Reply-To: devl at freenetproject.org
"Mark J. Roberts" <mjr at statesmean.com> wrote:
> I've been mauling this method in vain, trying to convert it to working
> C++. The shifts seem to be confusticated and befuddled. The first if
> statement seems to behave identically, but the shift in the else fucks up:
> it should yield (for one test case) 17179869184, but it incorrectly yields
> 0. Could you look it over? The udiv_qrnnd method is verified correct.
>
> Here's the Java version:
>
> /** Divide divident[0:len-1] by (unsigned int)divisor.
> * Write result into quotient[0:len-1.
> * Return the one-word (unsigned) remainder.
> * OK for quotient==dividend.
> */
> public static int divmod_1 (int[] quotient, int[] dividend, int len, int
> divisor)
> {
> int i = len - 1;
> long r = dividend[i];
> if ((r & 0xffffffffL) >= ((long)divisor & 0xffffffffL))
> r = 0;
> else
> {
> quotient[i--] = 0;
> r <<= 32;
> }
> for (; i >= 0; i--)
> {
> int n0 = dividend[i];
> r = (r & ~0xffffffffL) | (n0 & 0xffffffffL);
> r = udiv_qrnnd (r, divisor);
> quotient[i] = (int) r;
> }
> return (int)(r >> 32);
> }
>
> Here's my naive broken translation, if it helps (my other naive
> translations seem to work):
>
> jint gnu::gcj::math::MPN::divmod_1 (jintArray iquotient, jintArray idividend,
> jint len, jint divisor)
> {
> jint *quotient = elements(iquotient);
> jint *dividend = elements(idividend);
> #ifdef USE_GMP
> return mpn_divmod_1((mp_limb_t *) quotient, (mp_limb_t *) dividend,
> (mp_size_t) len, (mp_limb_t) divisor);
> #else
> jint i = len - 1;
> jlong r = dividend[i];
> if ((r & 0xffffffffL) >= ((jlong)divisor & 0xffffffffL))
> r = 0;
> else
> {
> quotient[i--] = 0;
> r <<= 32;
> }
> for (; i >= 0; i--)
> {
> jint n0 = dividend[i];
> r = (r & ~0xffffffffL) | (n0 & 0xffffffffL);
> r = udiv_qrnnd (r, divisor);
> quotient[i] = (jint) r;
> }
> return (jint) (r >> 32);
> #endif
> }
>
> Curiously, other similar shifts appear to work. Weird.
Well, I'm no authority on GCJ, but it appears to me that jlong is just a
typedef for int64, which in turn is a typedef for long long. Maybe there's
something wrong with g++'s handling of long long? You could try doing a
bunch of test shifts and see if they give the result you expect. Another
outside possibility - maybe other similar shifts work if they use << rather
than <<=? What happens if you say "r = r << 32" instead?
theo
--__--__--
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