Hi Thibaut, On 01/19/2010 03:54 AM, Thibaut DEVERAUX wrote: > Hi, > > > I think the two make sens.
Which two? please detail a bit... > > An annotation module as simple way to add personal notes on the page. > > A "quotes + icones on page" module as a way to annotate and discuss > directly on the page. > > > > The only thing wich is making me wondering is the annotation tab as it > add another way to get the information while there is already the > icones on the page. > > 1/ Is this tab really usefull or just an additional feature : "best > with but not needed" > > 2/ Isn't there is a risk of overloading the wiki if each feature has > so many options ? > > > > I'd like to sugsest two reflexion start points : > > > A/ Simplicity > > It is never a problem to add one tab, but it is a problem when each > feature add complexity. > > Just imgagine someone want to add 10 features that use such tabs. Then > he will have 14 tabs ! > > That why I'm pro *guetting the features a simple as possible* to avoid > information overload when many features are activated. > > > --- Start point 1 --- > Do not use a tab for annotation by default. Just leave them on page. > > > > B/ Intergration > > Also that's why I prefer to intergate several functionalities in a > single functionality when there is a usage justification. > > Here usages sugest that annoatation are on the same scope of use as > comments for the readers. They may want to have it all at the same > place to get an overveiw of people reactions. > > --- Start point 2 --- > Put the anotation tab content in the comment tab content. > The deal is to make it so that the user understand the way he interact with > it. > > > > @Anca > >> We could indeed push for this kind of integration with XE > > Not sure to understand ? > Please dont make it a standart feature. ;-) I guess for much users is > not really need as they have other ways to tell about text details > than using quotes+icones or annotation system (simplely copy/past in > comments) What I mean is that the annotations feature is a flexible add-on (call it like this if you want) which should be usable in a variety of wikis, more or less standard, and provide the ways to customize integration with these. If we want it like this, we can build the custom 'integrated with comments' flavour for XE (or any other wiki for that matter, but this wouldn't be our job), such as when an admin adds this add-on to his wiki it has it by default integrated in the comments thread. In other words, this integration is only one of the applications of the annotation feature. > > > > @Caty > >> - your display options are not very well positioned because the example is a >> poem, but in real life, the text will use all the area, and the right >> aligned position will not look so smooth as it looks now, being pushed up >> and outside the text. > > Sure, I didn't looked so much in positionnement. > > >> - your ideas and scenario about the similarities between annotations and >> comment is interesting and pertinent. Anca should tell her opinion about >> this from an implementation point of view. >> >> - if the annotations were comments, then we don't need a separation of >> terms. The icon should be comment instead of annotation and they should >> suppose to be localized comments, not something else. And also we didn't >> need two add actions in the tab. > > More preciselly is not an annotation module but a quote module that > also makes possible to have icones on text, providing the same service > as an annotation module. > > I tried a design where there is no box showing comments on pages but a > link to the right place in comment zone. > However I find it to be less fluid for the user. You can have a look > on it, it may grant some ideas : > http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/AnnotationsProposal/Quotesalternativelessfluidmoresimple-08.png > > >> - I disagree with the explicit display of replies in the annotation >> details/actions overlay. This representation could get very big and block >> all the text behind. Also if we would display it like this, then the Tab >> would be redundant. > > Well, I think the replies are needed because it become a conversation. > So that the whoole conversation is needed to understand the quote. > > I'm not sur having big boxes is a problem. When you open a box you are > reading the box, then you close it. > Indeed most of boxes will not be big. > > >> - I agree with the icon from the tab that takes you to the location in the >> content. > > Think it could be added in the original design too. > >> - The problem with this approach is that we need to annotate not just text, >> but add tags and other metadata to the content. This is an argument to have >> another tab for annotations. > > Well, I'm not sure to understand it. Is is programmation matters ? > If not I think that quoting the text is already a good thing. > The quote button is on the page wich, in an information architecture > way, sugsest to the user that this is the text that is to be quoted. What Cati means is that the annotation module is designed to potentially use any type of data to annotate a text with (right now indeed is only a 'comment' but it will be a data structure: specific fields, forms to fill in when adding, etc), that each developer adding the annotations in his wiki will be able to specify (build an XWiki class to describe it, most probable). For example, imagine syntax correction of a text, and being able to specify, for each annotation, the type of mistake that is made, what to replace it with, an explanation about the mistake, a vote count specifying how many users agree with it. Unless we decide that comments have by default structure too -- which is not necessarily a bad idea --, integration of the two is not that natural since now they are different types of data. And from this my idea that integrating the annotations with comments shouldn't be _the default_ but _one_ of the possible applications, for the case when the type of the data is the same. Now of course, there is also the other approach, that disconnecting the annotations from the comments is one of the possible applications... :) Thanks, Anca > >> - when you show linked replies for an annotation, the new comment you add is >> an annotation for the original annotation? or for the comment? :) > > Hay... I don't understand it at all. > > What user can do is : > - Quoting the text while reading, using the quote button at the top > of the text. > - Opening a conversation related to the text quote directly on the page. > - Quoting the text while writting a comment, using the quote button > in the comment field > - Interacting in a classic way in comments > > The idea is more making a quote system, able to provide the same > service as an annotation system adding the two first ways of > interacting to the two last which would be the "classics" of a quoting > system. > > > Thx > Thibaut > > > 2010/1/18 Anca Luca<ancapaula.l...@xwiki.com> >> >> Hi JV, >> >> On 01/18/2010 07:21 PM, Jean-Vincent Drean wrote: >>> On Sat, Jan 16, 2010 at 8:35 AM, Thibaut DEVERAUX >>> <thibaut.dever...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> I'm ok to the "add" button. This was only a very quick axis for reflexion. >>>> >>>> I agree to ludovic on the point there is a need on something less visible >>>> on >>>> the page. Imo we can also make it more simple in the toughts. >>>> >>>> As I can't sleep this morning I have made some more constructed UX about >>>> the >>>> module. >>>> Editable pdf (use illustrator or inkscape) : >>>> http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/AnnotationsProposal/XWikiAnnotationmodule.pdf >>>> Png on Flickr : >>>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/thibautdeveraux/sets/72157623219280278/ >>>> This is ideas, use it in a "remix" way. ;) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Notes taken during the design (hope it is clear) : >>>> >>>> * >>>> **Stage 1 : Get the concept from utility >>>> >>>> What are the utility uses of annotations ?* >>>> >>>> I guess that, in a global point of view, the use of anotations is to >>>> discuss >>>> on details points of a text. >>>> >>>> For example Mr John have redacted a commercial proposition and the team >>>> makes a review of it. >>>> >>>> Generally people quote the text in the comments. With the annotation module >>>> it will be more easy to find the parts of the text wich have been >>>> commented. >>>> >>>> >>>> *===> Annotations are comments ?* >>>> >>>> For readers the utility use of comments is to see people reactions. Both >>>> comments and annotations are people reactions. >>>> >>>> If there is two tabs in the bottom menu, readers will have to swich from >>>> one >>>> to another to see all the people reactions, getting lose in having two >>>> options for one single use. >>>> >>>> *Get the concept from utility :* >>>> *For the reader, an annotations is a comment where a text is quoted* >>>> >>>> At this stage of the reflexion, we can guess that, the comment tab and the >>>> annotation tab at the bottom of the page should be merged. >>>> >>> >>> This makes a lot of sense to me, has this option been explored ? Has >>> it been dropped for some reason ? >> >> Indeed it makes a lot of sense but I'm thinking it should be an 'additional' >> integration using the annotations default implementation. >> >> Annotations are designed (and will be implemented) to be structured and >> flexible, as in contain any kind of structured metadata (most probably >> defined >> by an xwiki class) with customizable views and all. This way they could be >> integrated with comments, if needed, or handled distinctly, if needed. >> >> We could indeed push for this kind of integration with XE, if we decide we >> want >> it like this, but I think the generic annotations feature should stay a bit >> more >> 'disconnected'. >> >> Thanks, >> Anca >> >>> >>>> >>>> *Stage 2 : get the interactions from usage chains >>>> >>>> Build the usage chains* ---> *Interactions * (priority : * to *** ) >>>> >>>> Notice : if statements lead to a too complexe interface, select only the >>>> main points that should be keeped >>>> >>>> *First time reading :* >>>> >>>> - I read the page >>>> --- While reading the page I notice the people annotations *----> >>>> User can >>>> see where are annotations on page *** >>>> ----- *Then I may want to read it* ---> User can read annotations >>>> directly >>>> on the page *** >>>> * ------- I may comment people reactions directly on the anotation box >>>> *---> >>>> User can comment the annotation directly on page* ** >>>> --- While reading I may quote a part of the text and comment it *---> >>>> User >>>> can add an anotation direclty on page **** >>>> * >>>> * - I read the comments >>>> --- While reading the comment I may notice that someone quoted a part of >>>> the page *---> User can see annotations in comments* *** >>>> ----- Then I may go back to the text to find the quoted text in context >>>> *---> >>>> ** **User can see where are annotations on page **** >>>> --- While reading the comments I may react to it *---> User can >>>> answer to >>>> comments (already done)* ** >>>> ----- I may do it quoting a part of the text *---> User can make >>>> annotation >>>> starting from the comment zone*** ** >>>> * >>>> * - I have read the page and want to make a comment *---> User can make >>>> comments (already done)* *** >>>> ----- I may do it quoting a part of the text *---> User can make >>>> annotation >>>> starting from the comment zone* ** >>>> * >>>> >>>> **Comming back to see people reactions :* >>>> * >>>> * - I may look on the page to see if there is new part of the text >>>> quoted *----> >>>> User can see where are annotations on page *** /or even/ **User can see >>>> wich >>>> annotations are new on page ** >>>> *----- *Then I may want to read it* ---> User can read annotations >>>> directly on the page *** >>>> * ------- I may comment people reactions directly on the anotation box >>>> *---> >>>> User can comment the annotation directly on page* ** >>>> >>>> * * - More general way : I look for new comments *---> User can see >>>> which >>>> are the last comments (already done)* *** >>>> --- While reading the comment I may notice that someone quoted a part of >>>> the page *---> User can see annotations in comments* *** >>>> ----- Then I may go back to the text to find the quoted text in context >>>> *---> >>>> ** **User can see where are annotations on page **** >>>> --- While reading the comments I may react to it *---> User can >>>> answer to >>>> comments (already done)* ** >>>> ----- I may do it quoting a part of the text *---> User can make >>>> annotation >>>> starting from the comment zone* ** >>>> >>>> >>>> *Quick reference :* >>>> >>>> *User can see where are annotations on page *** >>>> **User can see which are the last comments (already done)* **** >>>> >>>> **User can read annotations in comments* *** >>>> *User can read annotations directly on the page **** >>>> >>>> *User can add an anotation direclty on page **** >>>> *User can add a comment (already done)* *** >>>> >>>> >>>> *User can comment the annotation directly on page* ** >>>> *User can comment the comments (already done)* **** >>>> * >>>> User can add annotation starting from the comment zone* ** >>>> * >>>> >>>> User can see wich annotations are new directly on page ** >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *Stage 3 : draw the interface* >>>> >>>> Have a look at the schemas. ;-) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 2010/1/15 Ludovic Dubost<ludo...@xwiki.org> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> I'm not sure if one button is better than showing upfront some >>>>> information. >>>>> It might be something we might have as an option in the Wiki. And we need >>>>> a >>>>> way to collapse it.. >>>>> >>>>> However one thing I'm quite sure of, is that it's enough blue bars.. so we >>>>> need something less visible in the page.. >>>>> >>>>> Select the text + add will be an issue since the "Add" button might not be >>>>> on screen.. >>>>> >>>>> Otherwise it's very nice.. I like the user colors, the annotation setting >>>>> and the annotation tab.. >>>>> >>>>> Note that an annotation creation or display can be much more than just one >>>>> text.. >>>>> >>>>> Ludovic >>>>> >>>>> Le 15/01/10 21:51, Thibaut DEVERAUX a écrit : >>>>> >>>>> Hi Cathy, >>>>>> >>>>>> No time for visuals neither looking to much in it but did you think about >>>>>> a >>>>>> single button "show annotations options" ? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> *Button at start :* >>>>>> >>>>>> Show annotations options> >>>>>> >>>>>> *Clicking on the button open a menu :* >>>>>> >>>>>> Show annotations options> >>>>>> A line showing the users names by colors (if colors activated) >>>>>> [V] Hide/show icones on the page >>>>>> -- [V] Hide/show colors >>>>>> [+] Add annotation >>>>>> >>>>>> *Interact with anotations directly on the page :* >>>>>> Use the icones on page to interact : see, modify, react... >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Let me know... >>>>>> >>>>>> Thibaut >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> 2010/1/15 Ecaterina Valica<vali...@gmail.com> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I made some UI suggestions for the annotations. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Overview: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/Annotations/proposalAnn.png >>>>>>> Details: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/AnnotationsProposal >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Please let us (me and Anca) know what you think. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> devs mailing list >>> devs@xwiki.org >>> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs >> _______________________________________________ >> devs mailing list >> devs@xwiki.org >> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs > _______________________________________________ > devs mailing list > devs@xwiki.org > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs _______________________________________________ devs mailing list devs@xwiki.org http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
