Hi Jeremie, Thanks for your proposal (and for highjacking this thread in doing so :) ). I will add an entry on the proposals page for it and I suggest we move discussions not related to the Simplified Home Page proposals on the general thread: http://xwiki.markmail.org/thread/a3umh6ihsdpxrhws
Thanks, Eduard On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 11:21 PM, Jeremie BOUSQUET < jeremie.bousq...@gmail.com> wrote: > To clarify my point of view, I would say that: > > - UC6 is not only a use-case, it's a proposal in itself > > "Flavors need to be able to easily set/replace the homepage" > I propose that flavors, and wiki creation wizard, should be the (first) way > to set and replace the homepage. The second one being to customize it using > the standard and natural features of the wiki (edit > wiki/inline/wysiwyg/whatever), which is already feature-rich. > If I'm not wrong it would cover UC2, UC3, UC4 and (obviously) UC6. > > - I would say that UC1 and UC5 should be covered by a dedicated Help > application (with a button in the applications panel) > My argument is that using the home page content to cover those use-cases, > would satisfy only the needs of Alice, and only just after she created her > wiki. > She wouldn't need help on xwiki concepts or navigation in each and every > sub-wikis. > Once she would master the wiki concepts, she would replace the home page > with what she wants, and would have to choose between leaving the default > helping content in it (instead of using all the room available to put her > own content), or removing it - and so remove it for the B-Boys too. > By the way, last wizard step may even present a question to user like "do > you want to see some explainations about xwiki concepts ?" that would bring > user to the help instead of directing him to the home page. > > There were discussions about bootstrap being "mobile first", I've always > seen xwiki specifically "wiki first" ;-) , so in a sense I believe "edit" > should remain an essential feature - it should be easy in any case and > whatever is in a page. > > > > > 2014-10-21 21:04 GMT+02:00 Jeremie BOUSQUET <jeremie.bousq...@gmail.com>: > > > Basically if I got your point, you're saying that the home page should > > depend on the kind or flavor of wiki wanted by Alice, but though we have > > some ideas about it, we should let her choose by herself. > > It really looks like a last step of a wiki creation with flavor wizard, > > don't you think ? :) and if you want to switch home page concept > completely > > later, you can just run the wizard again. > > That way it's integrated with a concept of flavor that you want to add in > > xwiki, and a concept of wizard that's already there, it's not a brand new > > concept adding buttons in your everyday ui. If objective of Alice is to > > customize it to her needs, she can select "empty home page" during > wizard. > > But it's not something that she wants to do frequently (switching home > > page). Like a space template, but for the home page of the home space of > a > > wiki. > > > > Also I'm not sure if a dashboard is really limited to be an overview of a > > wiki. > > You can put any widget in it, and any macro can be a widget. > > To me it's more a highly flexible and extensible feature that is > currently > > highly underused. I think it could be a great tool for home pages of > > application based flavors. > > Le 21 oct. 2014 19:53, "Anca Luca" <lu...@xwiki.com> a écrit : > > > > On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 7:48 PM, Anca Luca <lu...@xwiki.com> wrote: > >> > >> > > >> > > >> > On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 7:47 PM, Anca Luca <lu...@xwiki.com> wrote: > >> > > >> >> Hi Edi, > >> >> > >> >> I sort of understand from this mail that you think I am "defending" > the > >> >> dashboard on the homepage. I cannot figure out how you got that idea. > >> >> > >> >> The only thing I was saying in the previous mail is that 2 dashboards > >> by > >> >> default don't make sense for me, because dashboard means to me > >> overview and > >> >> I think we should rather make it easy for users to turn their > homepage > >> in a > >> >> proper overview rather than have 2 overviews. Because if we have the > >> >> dashboard separately (as today), then the Alices will create on the > >> >> homepage their own overview of the wiki, and then Bob, Billy and > Bogdan > >> >> will have 2 of them. This is not necessarily bad, to be able to have > >> >> multiple dashboards, because you can imagine multiple facets of the > >> same > >> >> wiki, but I think for a default wiki user is confusing (seeing the > >> homepage > >> >> which is an overview and having a link on the right that takes to an > >> >> overview). > >> >> > >> >> When I said that the 2 personas need to be analyzed together it was > >> more > >> >> about what kind of customization we promote to the admin (Alice). > E.g. > >> >> explaining as a generic thing that they could include another page > and > >> they > >> >> could customize could be too generic for the need of Alice, which is > to > >> >> create a proper welcome page for the B-boys. If we knew / decided on > >> what > >> >> is a proper welcome page for the B-boys, then we could make a choice > >> about > >> >> how to allow Alice to take ownership, encourage editing, etc AND, in > >> >> addition, go towards the "users oriented homepage". > >> >> > >> >> On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 3:32 PM, Eduard Moraru <enygma2...@gmail.com > > > >> >> wrote: > >> >> > >> >>> Hi Anca, > >> >>> > >> >>> On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 12:38 PM, Anca Luca <lu...@xwiki.com> > wrote: > >> >>> > >> >>> > Hello Edi, > >> >>> > > >> >>> > > >> >>> > On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 12:34 PM, Eduard Moraru < > >> enygma2...@gmail.com> > >> >>> > wrote: > >> >>> > > >> >>> > > On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 7:26 PM, Anca Luca <lu...@xwiki.com> > >> wrote: > >> >>> > > > >> >>> > > > Hello all, > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> > > > so on the topic of "removing the dashboard from the homepage" > >> and > >> >>> if > >> >>> > > people > >> >>> > > > need it they can access it independently. > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> > > > In my opinion, this dashboard does not really exist or have > any > >> >>> value > >> >>> > > > beyond the homepage. I mean, what does it mean, what is it > used > >> for > >> >>> > > besides > >> >>> > > > the homepage? What would the dashboard be used other than > >> having an > >> >>> > > > overview of the wiki? And if people remove it from the > homepage > >> of > >> >>> the > >> >>> > > > wiki, what would they put instead? An overview of the wiki? > >> Isn't > >> >>> that > >> >>> > > what > >> >>> > > > dashboard means? > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> > > > >> >>> > > The idea of this proposal was that the homepage should be > >> customized > >> >>> by > >> >>> > the > >> >>> > > admin. It should be a homepage. Instead of a Dashboard, it > should > >> >>> contain > >> >>> > > information about the purpose of the wiki, information for > >> newcomers, > >> >>> > > information about the organization, some video, etc. All of this > >> we > >> >>> plan > >> >>> > to > >> >>> > > encourage the admins to customize so that they "take ownership" > of > >> >>> their > >> >>> > > wiki instead of seeing it as just a tool with default settings. > >> Some > >> >>> may > >> >>> > > see disadvantages to this, and prefer default tools, but others > >> may > >> >>> see > >> >>> > the > >> >>> > > value of getting the user/admin involved. > >> >>> > > > >> >>> > > The Dashboard should be seen as a place to go to in order to see > >> >>> what is > >> >>> > > going on. Dashboards in the wild also tend to be customizable > per > >> >>> users > >> >>> > (we > >> >>> > > technically support that as well, but it could be improved, i.e. > >> >>> have a > >> >>> > > default user dashboard in the 'My dashboard' section in the user > >> >>> profile > >> >>> > > instead of the empty space that is right now in view mode, > >> promote it > >> >>> > more, > >> >>> > > etc.). They also tend to be used by more technical people > >> >>> > > > >> >>> > > Once the admin is involved and now aware of how to do things, he > >> can > >> >>> > easily > >> >>> > > include the dashboard on the homepage if that is his view on the > >> >>> purpose > >> >>> > of > >> >>> > > his wiki. We can even propose it in the default content of the > >> >>> homepage. > >> >>> > > > >> >>> > > What you choose depends a lot on the usecase you have for your > >> wiki, > >> >>> i.e. > >> >>> > > what flavor you`re using. For example, a dashboard is good for > >> >>> > > intranet/groupware but not that good for public websites. We are > >> >>> > > considering here what we want the default experience to > >> >>> offer/encourage > >> >>> > and > >> >>> > > maybe we should not really focus on/be influenced by any of the > >> >>> > flavors/use > >> >>> > > cases we are having in mind. > >> >>> > > > >> >>> > > > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> > > > By this logic, I would find it strange to have a homepage and > a > >> >>> > > dashboard, > >> >>> > > > as 2 separate entities, because for me they would mean the > same > >> >>> thing. > >> >>> > So > >> >>> > > > multiple possibilities: > >> >>> > > > 1/ our _default_ dashboard displayed on the homepage (included > >> or > >> >>> not, > >> >>> > I > >> >>> > > > don't care) is not good enough because it does not offer a > good > >> >>> > _default_ > >> >>> > > > overview of the wiki. We need to change the dashboard. > >> >>> > > > >> >>> > > > >> >>> > > This is not part of the use cases [1] extracted from previous > >> >>> > discussions. > >> >>> > > Are you proposing that we add "offer a good overview of the > wiki" > >> as > >> >>> a > >> >>> > new > >> >>> > > use case/goal or is this just a rewording of UC5 (navigation) ? > >> >>> > > > >> >>> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> That would be proposal 1 here: > >> >> > >> > http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/HomepageProposal1Keepcurrenthomepagefixproblems > >> >> rather than a UC. > >> >> > >> >> Since I don't know anymore what this mail is about and I am sure > we're > >> >> gonna get lost in details, here is my proposal (corresponsad to by > >> option > >> >> 2) expressed in the initial mail): > >> >> > >> > > >> > (corresponds to my option 2 expressed in my initial mail on this > thread) > >> > -- just to make all crystal clear > >> > > >> > > >> >> * By default the home page is a regular wiki page, with some text in > >> it, > >> >> that demonstrates all the features of the wiki, something like a > >> Sandbox > >> >> webhome. This should cover a couple of the usecases for Alice admin > >> that > >> >> needs to understand how wiki works. Also, she will be able to edit > the > >> >> homepage like a regular page. > >> >> * Next to the edit button of this page, we add a button with an > >> >> UIExtension which will say: "Turn this homepage in a dashboard with > >> >> gadgets". Upon click, we open a wizard where we explain a bit what's > >> gonna > >> >> happen **and also that history rollback can always be used to fix > >> whatever > >> >> we might have done**. The wizard will put a dashboard macro on the > >> >> homepage, force the default edit mode to be inline, add a couple of > >> gadgets > >> >> already (some of the most used, etc) and will take the admin back to > >> edit > >> >> mode of this page, which she will customize as she pleases. > >> >> * There is no link to a dashboard in the menu, the dashboard on > >> >> Dashboard.WebHome does not exist anymore. The homepage will be a > >> dashboard > >> >> itself (and not include a dashboard). > >> >> > >> > > >> This homepage will be in one language only (we know how well > translations > >> for the homepage turned out, the last time we tried it) and it's > language > >> will be handled by the distribution wizard which will ask a question > >> before > >> doing anything. This language will be used for the DW itself + the > >> homepage > >> version to be installed. > >> > >> Anca > >> > >> > >> > > >> >> Ideally, the way I see this used is that when the admin is done > >> >> experimenting and has full ownership, they will click this dashboard > >> button > >> >> and create a dashboard for the wiki to give to B users. Why dashboard > >> and > >> >> not any other thing, like a page include or free text? Mainly > because I > >> >> think the dashboard is an interesting usecase for the users (B), with > >> the > >> >> proper gadgets available, of course, and directing the Admin A > towards > >> that > >> >> usecase could help noob admins that don't want to understand all the > >> >> concepts of the wiki to have a nice homepage. > >> >> > >> >> I just thought of another quite frequent usecase for the homepage for > >> the > >> >> users B, which is the homepage of an application (when the wiki is > >> fully > >> >> dedicated to an application). I think this should be a preference > >> setting > >> >> for admin A, not an include. As in, the Main.WebHome will not include > >> the > >> >> other application homepage, but the wiki will actually land on a > >> different > >> >> page when accessed. This configuration could be done in the > >> preferences of > >> >> the wiki. The case of including pages in the home could be limiting > >> for the > >> >> panels or space specific skin (if the application has specific > panels, > >> like > >> >> the blog, then the same panels would need to be configured on the > whole > >> >> wiki in order for the usecase "land directly in application blog" to > be > >> >> fulfilled). This would mean > >> >> > >> > http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/HomepageProposal4Setthispageashomepage > >> >> . Note that this proposal does not collide with the proposal I made > >> above > >> >> about the dashboard. > >> >> > >> >> Thanks, > >> >> Anca > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >>> > > >> >>> > I need to think a little more about this in order to make a > complete > >> >>> > answer, but I read the list of usecases and I remarked one thing: > >> >>> > > >> >>> > In all UC1 to UC5, I think your "user" is more of an "admin" than > a > >> >>> user. I > >> >>> > see the following flow in working with a wiki: > >> >>> > Alice downloads the wiki and plays around with it locally, tests > it > >> and > >> >>> > checks its features. Then, she is convinced by the tool and > decides > >> to > >> >>> move > >> >>> > this to the next level and install the wiki on a server (or get it > >> >>> > installed) so that she can collaborate with her colleagues, Bob, > >> Billy > >> >>> and > >> >>> > Bogdan. To me Alice is not a user, she's more like a wiki admin. > >> Then > >> >>> when > >> >>> > the wiki is installed on the server, the three B boys are the > users > >> and > >> >>> > Alice might become a user as well, or might always stay a little > >> more > >> >>> > admin. When she moves from her private tests to a public tool, > Alice > >> >>> > prepares the homepage of the wiki so that it matches the purpose > of > >> the > >> >>> > wiki and the B boys. Alice will need to "UC3: The user needs to be > >> >>> able to > >> >>> > easily replace the home page with his content" but the B boys > won't. > >> >>> > > >> >>> > > >> >>> I think you`ve perfectly described what we want to do with the > >> homepage > >> >>> (*in this proposal*), and yes, the user we are interested in in this > >> case > >> >>> is the admin (Alice) that we want to encourage to take ownership of > >> the > >> >>> wiki she is going to present to the wiki's users (B-boys) instead of > >> >>> offering them a vanilla "Untitled Document" experience :) > >> >>> > >> >>> I think that the admin (Alice) homepage needs cannot be analysed > >> >>> > independently from the user (Bob, Billy and Bogdan) homepage > needs, > >> >>> because > >> >>> > we risk to provide the admin with customization tools that they > will > >> >>> never > >> >>> > need because the user will never need such a customization. > >> >>> > > >> >>> > >> >>> In a way, that is exactly what the Dashboard is doing: it is *a > tool* > >> >>> that > >> >>> the user is presented with by default and which he might not need > (and > >> >>> has > >> >>> no idea how to get rid of). > >> >>> > >> >>> This proposal was about promoting more the wiki itself (not > >> customization > >> >>> tools) and empowering the user that will deploy it so that he can > >> provide > >> >>> an optimum experience to his users. We can`t really do much for the > >> >>> variety > >> >>> of use cases and users out there that might be using XWiki, but the > >> admin > >> >>> can (*if he is able to*, and this is what this proposal is pushing > >> for). > >> >>> > >> >>> The Dashboard is nice, no argument there, but it is just *a tool*, > >> among > >> >>> others, that the admin could choose to use or not. > >> >>> > >> >>> Still, this is currently just one proposal amongst others [1]. > >> >>> > >> >>> Thanks, > >> >>> Eduard > >> >>> > >> >>> ---------- > >> >>> [1] > http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/HomepageProposals > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > > >> >>> > Thanks, > >> >>> > Anca > >> >>> > > >> >>> > > >> >>> > > > >> >>> > > Thanks, > >> >>> > > Eduard > >> >>> > > > >> >>> > > [1] > >> http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/HomepageUseCases > >> >>> > > > >> >>> > > > >> >>> > > > In this case, we > >> >>> > > > improve the way we modify this dashboard, to allow people to > >> >>> change the > >> >>> > > > "default" overview which guides the user through the wiki with > >> an > >> >>> > > overview > >> >>> > > > that is more adapted to the user's usecase. > >> >>> > > > 2/ we change the homepage and we remove the dashboard from it > >> and > >> >>> > > implement > >> >>> > > > an overview of the wiki differently (which would still be a > >> >>> dashboard > >> >>> > at > >> >>> > > > the conceptual level but implemented differently). In this > case, > >> >>> the > >> >>> > > > Dashboard.WebHome should be removed completely from the menu, > >> >>> because > >> >>> > the > >> >>> > > > dashboard _is_ the home page (see my remark above) :) . We can > >> >>> make the > >> >>> > > > homepage a regular page so that users can edit it very easily > by > >> >>> > default, > >> >>> > > > but we also allow them to easily make it a dashboard with > >> gadgets > >> >>> and > >> >>> > > drag > >> >>> > > > & drop, so that they can organize their content. I am thinking > >> for > >> >>> > > example > >> >>> > > > of a button on the homepage, in view mode injected with > >> javascript > >> >>> or > >> >>> > UI > >> >>> > > > extension or I don't know, which runs a script that creates a > >> new > >> >>> > version > >> >>> > > > of the homepage which contains a dashboard macro call and a > >> default > >> >>> > > gadget > >> >>> > > > and the user is taken to the edit mode of the homepage, with > the > >> >>> > > dashboard > >> >>> > > > editor in it. > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> > > > The only reason why the dashboard is separate now, in > >> >>> > Dashboard.WebHome, > >> >>> > > is > >> >>> > > > for legacy reasons, because it used to be included as the > >> homepage > >> >>> of > >> >>> > all > >> >>> > > > sort of default spaces, so we needed something that can be > >> re-used > >> >>> for > >> >>> > > > spaces homes as well. Otherwise, from my point of view, it > does > >> not > >> >>> > need > >> >>> > > to > >> >>> > > > be a separate entity. I mean, one should be able to create as > >> many > >> >>> > > > dashboards as they'd want (on any page they want), but by > >> default > >> >>> the > >> >>> > > > dashboard of the wiki is only one, the homepage of the wiki. > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> > > > Anca > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> > > > On Tue, Sep 16, 2014 at 3:23 PM, vinc...@massol.net < > >> >>> > vinc...@massol.net> > >> >>> > > > wrote: > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> > > > > Hi devs, > >> >>> > > > > > >> >>> > > > > As you know I started working on a Home Page Application, > see: > >> >>> > > > > - JIRA with screenshots: > >> >>> http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-10586 > >> >>> > > > > - Discussion thread: > >> >>> http://markmail.org/message/ghelufamwucog46x > >> >>> > > > > > >> >>> > > > > I have it all done locally but I refrained from committing > it > >> >>> because > >> >>> > > on > >> >>> > > > > the email thread some expressed their doubts. > >> >>> > > > > > >> >>> > > > > I started thinking about it and I expressed some idea in the > >> >>> thread > >> >>> > > > > started by Caty about "Wiki - Space - Page concepts pitch": > >> >>> > > > > http://markmail.org/message/jefze7nvprz36pkw > >> >>> > > > > > >> >>> > > > > I’m pasting it here again for discussion (with some edits): > >> >>> > > > > > >> >>> > > > > " > >> >>> > > > > BTW concerning the home page, I’m more and more leaning > >> towards > >> >>> > > removing > >> >>> > > > > the dashboard from it (it’s accessible from the App panel > >> >>> anyway) and > >> >>> > > > > instead have it contain: > >> >>> > > > > - explanation about how the wiki is organized (wikis, > spaces, > >> >>> pages) > >> >>> > > > > - explanation about base concepts (editing, saving, etc) > >> >>> > > > > - encourage the user to edit this home page to make it his > own > >> >>> and > >> >>> > put > >> >>> > > > the > >> >>> > > > > content he wishes instead > >> >>> > > > > > >> >>> > > > > I think this would solve the following issues: > >> >>> > > > > - users always want to customize the home page and this > makes > >> it > >> >>> easy > >> >>> > > > > (it’s a standard page, no dashboard). This is also a way for > >> >>> them to > >> >>> > > take > >> >>> > > > > ownership of the wiki as theirs. > >> >>> > > > > - explains the main concepts of wiki, space, page > >> >>> > > > > > >> >>> > > > > Of course, we also need to provide a navigation panel for > easy > >> >>> > > navigation > >> >>> > > > > in the wiki/spaces/pages. > >> >>> > > > > “ > >> >>> > > > > > >> >>> > > > > If we agree about the idea of removing the dashboard and > >> instead > >> >>> > have a > >> >>> > > > > simple page then we’ll need to discuss the exact content and > >> for > >> >>> that > >> >>> > > I’m > >> >>> > > > > proposing to discuss with Caty/GuillaumeD and make a > proposal > >> for > >> >>> > > further > >> >>> > > > > discussion. Of course any idea in reply to this email would > >> also > >> >>> be > >> >>> > > much > >> >>> > > > > appreciated. > >> >>> > > > > > >> >>> > > > > But first things first! We first need to decide if this is a > >> good > >> >>> > idea > >> >>> > > or > >> >>> > > > > not. > >> >>> > > > > > >> >>> > > > > WDYT? > >> >>> > > > > > >> >>> > > > > Thanks > >> >>> > > > > -Vincent > >> >>> > > > > _______________________________________________ > >> >>> > > > > devs mailing list > >> >>> > > > > devs@xwiki.org > >> >>> > > > > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs > >> >>> > > > > > >> >>> > > > _______________________________________________ > >> >>> > > > devs mailing list > >> >>> > > > devs@xwiki.org > >> >>> > > > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> > > _______________________________________________ > >> >>> > > devs mailing list > >> >>> > > devs@xwiki.org > >> >>> > > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs > >> >>> > > > >> >>> > _______________________________________________ > >> >>> > devs mailing list > >> >>> > devs@xwiki.org > >> >>> > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs > >> >>> > > >> >>> _______________________________________________ > >> >>> devs mailing list > >> >>> devs@xwiki.org > >> >>> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs > >> >>> > >> >> > >> >> > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > >> devs mailing list > >> devs@xwiki.org > >> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs > >> > > > _______________________________________________ > devs mailing list > devs@xwiki.org > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs > _______________________________________________ devs mailing list devs@xwiki.org http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
