On 1/17/11 10:34 AM, Michel Fortin wrote:
On 2011-01-16 18:58:54 -0500, Andrei Alexandrescu
<seewebsiteforem...@erdani.org> said:
On 1/16/11 3:20 PM, Michel Fortin wrote:
On 2011-01-16 14:29:04 -0500, Andrei Alexandrescu
<seewebsiteforem...@erdani.org> said:
On 1/15/11 10:45 PM, Michel Fortin wrote:
No doubt it's easier to implement it that way. The problem is that in
most cases it won't be used. How many people really know what is a
grapheme?
How many people really should care?
I think the only people who should *not* care are those who have
validated that the input does not contain any combining code point. If
you know the input *can't* contain combining code points, then it's safe
to ignore them.
I agree. Now let me ask again: how many people really should care?
As I said: all those people who are not validating the inputs to make
sure they don't contain combining code points.
The question (which I see you keep on dodging :o)) is how much text
contains combining code points.
I have worked in NLP for years, and still do. I even worked on Arabic
text (albeit Romanized). I work with Wikipedia. I use Unicode all the
time, but I have yet to have trouble with a combining character. I was
just vaguely aware of their existence up until this discussion, but just
waved it away and guess what - it worked for me.
It does not serve us well to rigidly claim that the only good way of
doing anything Unicode is to care about graphemes. Even NSString exposes
the UTF16 underlying encoding and provides dedicated functions for
grapheme-based processing. For one thing, if you care about the width of
a word in printed text (one of the case where graphemes are important),
you need font information. And - surprise! - some fonts do NOT support
combining characters and print signs next to one another instead of
juxtaposing them, so the "wrong" method of counting characters is more
informative.
As far as I know, no one
is doing that, so that means everybody should use algorithms capable of
handling multi-code-point graphemes. If someone indeed is doing this
validation, he'll probably also be smart enough to make his algorithms
to work with dchars.
I am not sure everybody should use graphemes.
That said, no one should really have to care but those who implement the
string manipulation functions. The idea behind making the grapheme the
element type is to make it easier to write grapheme-aware string
manipulation functions, even if you don't know about graphemes. But the
reality is probably more mixed than that.
The reality is indeed more mixed. Inevitably at some point the API needs
to answer the question: "what is the first character of this string?"
Transparency is not possible. You break all string code out there.
- - -
I gave some thought about all this, and came to an interesting
realizations that made me refine the proposal. The new proposal is
disruptive perhaps as much as the first, but in a different way.
But first, let's state a few facts to reframe the current discussion:
Fact 1: most people don't know Unicode very well
Fact 2: most people are confused by code units, code points, graphemes,
and what is a 'character'
Fact 3: most people won't bother with all this, they'll just use the
basic language facilities and assume everything work correctly if it it
works correctly for them
Nice :o).
Now, let's define two goals:
Goal 1: make most people's string operations work correctly
Goal 2: make most people's string operations work fast
Goal 3: don't break all existing code
Goal 4: make most people's string-based code easy to write and understand
To me, goal 1 trumps goal 2, even if goal 2 is also important. I'm not
sure we agree on this, but let's continue.
I think we disagree about what "most" means. For you it means "people
who don't understand Unicode well but deal with combining characters
anyway". For me it's "the largest percentage of D users across various
writing systems".
From the above 3 facts, we can deduce that a user won't want to bother
to using byDchar, byGrapheme, or byWhatever when using algorithms. You
were annoyed by having to write byDchar everywhere, so changed the
element type to always be dchar and you don't have to write byDchar
anymore. That's understandable and perfectly reasonable.
The problem is of course that it doesn't give you correct results. Most
of the time what you really want is to use graphemes, dchar just happen
to be a good approximation of that that works most of the time.
Again, it's a matter of tradeoffs. I chose dchar because char was plain
_wrong_ most of the time, not because char was a pretty darn good
approximation that worked for most people most of the time. The fact
remains that dchar _is_ a pretty darn good approximation that also has
pretty good darn speed. So I'd say that I _still_ want to use dchar most
of the time.
Committing to graphemes would complicate APIs for _everyone_ and would
make things slower for _everyone_ for the sake of combining characters
that _never_ occur in _most_ people's text. This is bad design, pure and
simple. A good design is to cater for the majority and provide dedicated
APIs for the few.
Iterating by grapheme is somewhat problematic, and it degrades
performance.
Yes.
Same for comparing graphemes for normalized equivalence.
Yes, although I think you can optimize code such that comparing two
strings wholesale only has a few more comparisons on the critical path.
That would be still slower, but not as slow as iterating by grapheme in
a naive implementation.
That's all true. I'm not too sure what we can do about that. It can be
optimized, but it's very understandable that some people won't be
satisfied by the performance and will want to avoid graphemes.
I agree.
Speaking of optimization, I do understand that iterating by grapheme
using the range interface won't give you the best performance. It's
certainly convenient as it enables the reuse of existing algorithms with
graphemes, but more specialized algorithms and interfaces might be more
suited.
Even the specialized algorithms will be significantly slower.
One observation I made with having dchar as the default element type is
that not all algorithms really need to deal with dchar. If I'm searching
for code point 'a' in a UTF-8 string, decoding code units into code
points is a waste of time. Why? because the only way to represent code
point 'a' is by having code point 'a'.
Right. That's why many algorithms in std are specialized for such cases.
And guess what? The almost same
optimization can apply to graphemes: if you're searching for 'a' in a
grapheme-aware manner in a UTF-8 string, all you have to do is search
for the UTF-8 code unit 'a', then check if the 'a' code unit is followed
by a combining mark code point to confirm it is really a 'a', not a
composed grapheme. Iterating the string by code unit is enough for these
cases, and it'd increase performance by a lot.
Unfortunately it all breaks as soon as you go beyond one code point. You
can't search efficiently, you can't compare efficiently. Boyer-Moore and
friends are out.
I'm not saying that we shouldn't implement the correct operations! I'm
just not convinced they should be the default.
So making dchar the default type is no doubt convenient because it
abstracts things enough so that generic algorithms can work with
strings, but it has a performance penalty that you don't always need. I
made an example using UTF-8, it applies even more to UTF-16. And it
applies to grapheme-aware manipulations too.
It is true that UTF manipulation incurs overhead. The tradeoff has many
dimensions: UTF-16 is bulkier and less cache friendly, ASCII is not
sufficient for most people, the UTF decoding overhead is not that
high... it's difficult to find the sweetest spot.
This penalty with generic algorithms comes from the fact that they take
a predicate of the form "a == 'a'" or "a == b", which is ill-suited for
strings because you always need to fully decode the string (by dchar or
by graphemes) for the purpose of calling the predicate. Given that
comparing characters for something else than equality or them being part
of a set is very rarely something you do, generic algorithms miss a big
optimization opportunity here.
How can we improve that? You can't argue for an inefficient scheme just
because what we have isn't as efficient as it could possibly be.
- - -
So here's what I think we should do:
Todo 1: disallow generic algorithms on naked strings: string-specific
Unicode-aware algorithms should be used instead; they can share the same
name if their usage is similar
I don't understand this. We already do this, and by "Unicode-aware" we
understand using dchar throughout. This is transparent to client code.
Todo 2: to use a generic algorithm with a strings, you must dress the
string using one of toDchar, toGrapheme, toCodeUnits; this way your
intentions are clear
Breaks a lot of existing code. Won't fly with Walter unless it solves
world hunger. Nevertheless I have to say I like it; the #1 thing I'd
change about the built-in strings is that they implicitly are two things
at the same time. Asking for representation should be explicit.
Todo 3: string-specific algorithms can implemented as simple wrappers
for generic algorithms with the string dressed correctly for the task,
or they can implement more sophisticated algorithms to increase performance
One thing I like about the current scheme is that all
bidirectional-range algorithms work out of the box with all strings, and
lend themselves to optimization whenever you want to.
This will have trouble passing Walter's wanking test. Mine too; every
time I need to write a bunch of forwarding functions, that's a signal
something went wrong somewhere. Remember MFC? :o)
There's two major benefits to this approach:
Benefit 1: if indeed you really don't want the performance penalty that
comes with checking for composed graphemes, you can bypass it at some
specific places in your code using byDchar, or you can disable it
altogether by modifying the string-specific algorithms and recompiling
Phobos.
Benefit 2: we don't have to rush to implementing graphemes in the
Unicode-aware algorithms. Just make sure the interface for
string-specific algorithms *can* accept graphemes, and we can roll out
support for them at a later time once we have a decent implementation.
I'm not seeing the drawbacks. Hurts everyone for the sake of a few,
breaks existent code, makes all string processing a mess, would-be users
will throw their hands in the air seeing the simplest examples, but
we'll have the satisfaction of high-five-ing one another telling
ourselves that we did the right thing.
Also, all this is leaving the question open as to what to do when
someone uses the string as a range. In my opinion, it should either
iterate on code units (because the string is actually an array, and
because that's what foreach does) or simply disallow iteration (asking
that you dress the string first using toCodeUnit, toDchar, or toGrapheme).
Do you like that more?
This is not about liking. I like doing the right thing as much as you
do, and I think Phobos shows that. Clearly doing the right thing through
and through is handling combining characters appropriately. The problem
is keeping all desiderata in careful balance.
Andrei
