Dave makes several invalid assumptions...but mainly that the 16 KHz signal would not allow any other modes or like modes access to the same 16 KHz...this is an error. I would submit that a properly designed mode using 16 KHz could support 3 or 4 other like modes...then the average usage would be 4 KHz per user. Or in the case of narrow bandwidth modes of like structure, they you might be able to fit 10 QSO in the same bandwidth...thus 11 users within 16 kHz or 1 user of every 1.5 KHz.
The other assumption is that there are NO signals like I describe on the air. How do you know? Do you have the receiver to hear/decode them? Perhaps they are there and you don't know it.
I remember some older friends telling me that SSB was worthless and that AM was here forever as they fired up their Collins HF AM rigs.
What is our purpose?
97.1 Basis and purpose.
The rules and regulations in this Part are designed to provide an amateur radio service having a fundamental purpose as expressed in the following principles:
(a) Recognition and enhancement of the value of the amateur service to the public as a voluntary noncommercial communication service, particularly with respect to providing emergency communications.
(b) Continuation and extension of the amateur's proven ability to contribute to the advancement of the radio art.
(c) Encouragement and improvement of the amateur service through rules which provide for advancing skills in both the communications and technical phases of the art.
(d) Expansion of the existing reservoir within the amateur radio service of trained operators, technicians, and electronics experts.
(e) Continuation and extension of the amateur's unique ability to enhance international goodwill.
I see no where in this purpose where it says we MUST have lots of QSOs to fulfill the purpose of Part 97.1.
IMHO carving out little slices of a band for different modes is more restrictive in practice than no restrictions at all.
73 and Have a GREAT Turkey Day.
Walt/K5YFW
-----Original Message-----
From: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:digitalradio@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Dave Bernstein
Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2005 2:45 PM
To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [digitalradio] Re: 39 Tone DQPSK - ARQ Modem in PCALE with FTP
- (Soundcard)
I have already expressed my skepticism of Walt's argument that a 16
Khz-wide signal constructed as he suggests would be legal, but lets
put that to the side for a moment. A critical test of any techique
or technology introduced onto the ham bands ought to be "will it be
okay if lots of hams adopt this technology?". The answer for 16 KHz-
wide signals is clearly "NO!!!". Such a technique would dramatically
reduce the QSO capacity of our bands; its introduction, legal or
otherwise, would be entirely irresponsible.
If the rationale is "we need this for emergency services", then I
suggest that application be made to the FCC for a few small HF
segments dedicated to this purpose, enlisting support from DHS; if
the technology and need are sufficiently compelling, surely they
would not refuse.
73,
Dave, AA6YQ
--- In digitalradio@yahoogroups.com, DuBose Walt Civ AETC CONS/LGCA
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Right now in the U.S. the ONLY limit you have on a data mode
operating in
> the parts of the HF bands that are authorized data
communications. See
> §97.305 Authorized emission types. Also, it (the new codes) be
a digital
> code that has been publically documented. See §97.309 RTTY and
data
> emission codes...especially 97.309(a)(4).
>
> And, the code used as listed in §97.309(a)(4)...in our case, not
operate at
> a symbol rate of more than 300 bauds or a frequency shift of more
than 1
> kHz. See §97.307(f)(3).
>
> Thus, if you have a mode/code that produces 10 or 300 tones or
carriers and
> the baud rate of any of the tones/carriers is less than 300 baud
and does
> not have a frequency shift of more than 1 kHz, then the signal
is "legal.
> Example: I have 256 tones, each modulated at 50 Hz, and using
QPSK it is
> legal. The width of the mode is not in question.
>
> If each carrier took up 65 Hz of band width, the signal would be
16.640 KHz
> wide. If we transmit the first tone at 360 Hz the mode would
require a
> bandpass of 17 KHz. The composite signaling rate would be 51200
bps (51.2
> Kbps).
>
> All quite legal between 14.000 and 14.150 MHz within the U.S.
>
> Walt/K5YFW
>
> =================================================
> Excerpts from Part 97.
>
> §97.305 Authorized emission types.
> (c) A station may transmit the following emission types on the
frequencies
> indicated, as authorized to the control operator, subject to the
standards
> specified in §97.307(f) of this part.
> Example: on 20 m 14.00-14.15 MHz RTTY, _data_ Subject to §97.307
(f)(3)
>
>
> §97.309 RTTY and data emission codes.
> (a) Where authorized by §97.305(c) and 97.307(f) of this Part, an
amateur
> station may transmit a RTTY or data emission using the following
specified
> digital codes:
>
> (1) The 5-unit, start-stop, International Telegraph Alphabet
No. 2,
> code defined in International Telegraph and Telephone
Consultative
> Committee Recommendation F.1, Division C (commonly known as
Baudot).
>
> (2) The 7-unit code, specified in International Radio
Consultative
> Committee Recommendation CCIR 476-2 (1978), 476-3 (1982),
476-4 (1986) or
> 625 (1986) (commonly known as AMTOR).
>
> (3) The 7-unit code defined in American National Standards
Institute
> X3.4-1977 or International Alphabet No. 5 defined in
International
> Telegraph and Telephone Consultative Committee
Recommendation T.50 or in
> International Organization for Standardization, International
Standard ISO
> 646 (1983), and extensions as provided for in CCITT Recommendation
T.61
> (Malaga- Torremolinos, 1984) (commonly known as ASCII).
>
> (4) An amateur station transmitting a RTTY or data emission
using a
> digital code specified in this paragraph may use any technique
whose
> technical characteristics have been documented publicly,
such as CLOVER,
> G-TOR, or PacTOR, for the purpose of facilitating communications.
>
> §97.307(f)(3) - Only a RTTY or data emission using a specified
digital code
> listed in §97.309(a) of this Part may be transmitted. The symbol
rate must
> not exceed 300 bauds, or for frequency-shift keying, the frequency
shift
> between mark and space must not exceed 1 kHz.]
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:digitalradio@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Steve Hajducek
> Sent: Monday, November 21, 2005 7:37 PM
> To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [digitalradio] 39 Tone DQPSK - ARQ Modem in PCALE
with FTP
> - (Soundcard)
>
> Hi Bonnie,
>
> Actually, you may want to take another look at all of this and
chat
> with Charles Brain, as to FCC legal, I don't think so, not
currently,
> but hopefully some day.
>
> In PC-ALE, 39 tone DQPSK is not being used, its 8-ary. Also, the
> MIL-STD-188-110 modem and the FS-1052 DLP waveform can be either
FSK
> or PSK, however in PC-ALE is just implemented as PSK.
>
> The MIL-STD-188-110 modem standard, specifies a 2400bps symbol
rate
> with a fixed 1800hz PSK carrier with user selectable data rates
which
> equates to a 300-3300hz bandwidth. A 2.6Khz IF BW does not really
> allow for it to work to well, at least not below 150bps data rate
and
> above the 600bps data rate. To get the full +/- 75hz @ +/-
3.5hz/sec
> error correction needed for combinations of operating frequency
error
> between stations and channel QSB factors, a 2.8-30Khz IF BW is
really
> required, then you can get 1200 and 2400bps data rates to work. In
> PC-ALE the 75bps data rate uses a pseudo spread spectrum rake
> algorithm that is just unbeatable under the most sever channel
> conditions, but the 3Khz BW is a must.
>
> In MARS-ALE, which is based on PC-ALE, for MARS-to-MARS use only,
to
> allow for better operation with the various lower IF BW filtering
> being used in Amateur Radio gear, I have added user selectable
> choices of symbol rate and PSK carrier for the MIL-STD-188-110
modem,
> thus we can use 1200, 1500 and 1800hz for the carrier and have
2.0,
> 2.25, 2.5 and 3.0Khz overall bandwidth based on the symbol rate,
so
> with a 1600hz symbol rate and 1200hz carrier the passband is
> 1000-2200hz, something that every ham rig can manage, but even the
> 1600hz symbol rate ( which is non-standard) is in excess of 300
baud.
> There is also a 4800bps un-coded data rate ! Anyhow, PC-ALE is
> currently just written to meet the standard parameters, so the PSK
> carrier and symbol rates are locked. Lastly, the MIL-STD-188-110
> Async mode transmits but does not decode properly and the FS-1052
ARQ
> has a few bugs, so only the FS-1052 DLP BRD mode is really usable
at
> present.
>
> The thing that is in PC-ALE that is much more useful and legal per
> Part 97 is the AQC-ALE, just don't use burst mode as its based on
the
> same 1800hz PSK carrier and 2400bps symbol rate. AQC-ALE results
in
> must faster and more reliable linking than does normal ALE, you
will
> not find anyone on the ham bands using an AQC-ALE radio however,
they
> are only in the hands of the elite military. It is the calling
> station that determines if AQC-ALE is being used or not, the
> receiving station is always ready to respond to a NORMAL or
ALTERNATE
> (AQC) ALE call, so the calling station decided by check AQC-ALE
for
> use or not. You must remember to stick with standard ham callsigns
of
> 6 characters or less, the AQC-ALE standard allows no more than 6
> characters or 2 ALE words, no use of /M or /P for mobile or
portable
> or any of that, else very bad things will happen. Lastly, for
> AQC-ALE, the scan rate is locked at 5 channels per sec in PC-ALE
> regardless as to what you have selected, the standard allows for 2
or
> 5, the end goal is 10 as stated in the standard, but the tool is
> currently locked at 5, radios need to be communicating at 9600
baud
> or better and be of fairly recent manufacture to work well at 5
ch/sec.
>
> P.S. - If you want to stop your radio's TX band pass filter relays
> from chattering away while performing ALE scanning, select SPLIT
VFO,
> this will NOT work on all make/models, does on all Kenwoods except
> for the TS-440, most all new ICOM's (not the '706 series or '718
> though) and a few older models and a few Yaesu's like the FT-990
and
> FT-920. Some radios, like my Kachina 505DSP which as made to
> commercial standards, there are not relays switching BPF relay's,
the
> test is to turn the VFO with the volume down and listen for relay
> clicks at bands edges, like 3.999 to 4.000Mhz and then go to SPLIT
> VFO and change the RX frequency again and see what happens. With
> PC-ALE, for ICOM radios that SPLIT VFO works, you can select the
ICOM
> Generic radio type and select for true SPLIT VFO operation and the
> software will only change the B VFO at TX, this support is not
> currently provided for any other make/model radios.
>
> Over the next few years I foresee more and more ALE and AQC-ALE on
> the Amateur bands and higher speed digital protocols, hopefully
Part
> 97 will soon open to door for much more modern operations.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> /s/ Steve, N2CKH/AAR2EY
> www.n2ckh.com
>
>
> At 05:43 PM 11/21/2005, you wrote:
> >Most of us already know about the ALE linking using 8FSK and the
> >compatible keyboarding/FTP system "DTM and DBM" with ARQ.
> >
> >But there is another fast DQPSK modem in PCALE beta that
> >has not been used much yet by hams!
> >
> >It is based upon the FS1052 standard
> >(Fed Std 1052, Mil Std 188-110) that the military and
> >government has been using for HF email (and continues to use).
> >It has selectable long/short interleaving, and baud rate,
> >and a bunch of other great features.
> >
> >This soundcard DQPSK HF modem uses 39 PSK tones at 44.5
> >symbols/second, with up to 2400baud.
> >The lowest tone is 393.75 Hz and highest is 2812.50 Hz.
> >So, to use it, you will need to make sure your transceiver
> >has a bandpass filter that is at least 2.6kHz bandwidth.
> >
> >A lot of the stuff for fast FTP, ARQ, and other functions are
> >also built into PCALE.
> >
> >By the way, it is FCC-legal for USA amateur radio since it
> >uses 44.5 baud (symbol rate).
> >
> >Is anyone interested in experimenting with it?
> >Please feel free to link up with me on one of the ALE channels.
> >
> >Bonnie KQ6XA
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Need a Digital mode QSO? Connect to telnet://208.15.25.196/
> >
> >Other areas of interest:
> >The MixW Reflector : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/themixwgroup/
> >
> >Looking for digital mode software? This group suggests you try
either :
> >
> >http://www.mixw.net MIWX (many modes)
> >http://f6cte.free.fr MultiPSK (many modes)
> >http://www.dxlab.com DXLAB (logging, PSK31/63 and more)
> >http://www.qsl.net/hamscope Hamscope (many modes)
> >http://http://xoomer.virgilio.it/aporcino/Chip64 Chip64
> >http://www.digipan.net/Digipan Digipan (PSK31 and PSK63
> >http://www.kc4elo.com/ Logger32 (logging, PSK31/63 and RTTY)
> >
> >
> >
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> Need a Digital mode QSO? Connect to telnet://208.15.25.196/
>
> Other areas of interest:
> The MixW Reflector : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/themixwgroup/
>
> Looking for digital mode software? This group suggests you try
either :
>
> http://www.mixw.net MIWX (many modes)
> http://f6cte.free.fr MultiPSK (many modes)
> http://www.dxlab.com DXLAB (logging, PSK31/63 and more)
> http://www.qsl.net/hamscope Hamscope (many modes)
> http://http://xoomer.virgilio.it/aporcino/Chip64 Chip64
> http://www.digipan.net/Digipan Digipan (PSK31 and PSK63
> http://www.kc4elo.com/ Logger32 (logging, PSK31/63 and RTTY)
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
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Need a Digital mode QSO? Connect to telnet://208.15.25.196/
Other areas of interest:
The MixW Reflector : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/themixwgroup/
Looking for digital mode software? Check the quick commerical free link below
http://www.obriensweb.com/digimodes.html
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Need a Digital mode QSO? Connect to telnet://208.15.25.196/
Other areas of interest:
The MixW Reflector : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/themixwgroup/
Looking for digital mode software? Check the quick commerical free link below
http://www.obriensweb.com/digimodes.html
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