[trimming to just discuss@, as my understanding is that is the proper venue for this topic]
On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 21:47, Norbert Thiebaud <nthieb...@gmail.com> wrote: > On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 7:15 PM, Greg Stein <gst...@gmail.com> wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> If you have any comments, questions, or concerns, then please feel >> free to direct them my way (on whatever list). I'm here to listen and >> understand, and to offer up answers where I can. > > I have a question: > Why would Apache contemplate helping IBM pull a Jenkins/Hudson on us, > fragmenting the license of a project that has been with a uniform > licensing so far ? Apache helps out any community that wants to work under our umbrella. The Foundation itself provides the legal umbrella, governance, operations, infrastructure, and a bunch of other things. It is there to help its community. The Foundation has a proposal before it to help a to-be-defined community to work on OO.o as an Apache project. That TBD-community is not IBM and it is not Oracle. There are about 15 to 20 people[1] stepping up to launch that community. Lots of projects at the Foundation have duplicated other projects and communities. And vice versa. The Apache HTTPD Server is the most popular server on the planet, but lighttpd and nginx are also quite popular. We aren't going to shut down HTTPD just because it duplicates others. And other groups aren't going to stop building code just because we already have some. Open Source is about scratching your own itch. It isn't about saying "well, somebody else is choosing to do it their way, so I better not attempt to try it my way." We're helping that TBD community. If that helps corporations out there, then fine. Lots of Apache projects have companies built around them (Lucene, Hadoop, HTTPD, Tomcat, Subversion, etc ... all have *very* strong corporate involvement). Apache is a charity. We produce code for the benefit of *everybody*. Whether that is individuals, educational institutions, or corporate enterprises. Our software is for the public good. By using a permissive license, we can provide the software to *everybody*, and we can do that on *equal* terms for everybody. No winners. No losers. Now all that said, I am NOT forgetting that Oracle's choice to contribute OO.o (code and trademarks) to Apache *could* be a divisive move. I'm not convinced that it *must* be divisive. I believe that there are solutions that works for the benefit of the entire ecosystem (OO.o, LO, and all the other derivatives). We don't have to let it divide us. > (Oracle could merge our changes... they elected _not_ to do so because they > wanted a Copyright assignment on top of the code, but that was not > a licensing incompatibility) You had a choice to sign the assignment or not. It sounds like you chose not to, so it is no surprise to me that they elected to not merge your work. Even if you *had* signed the assignment, it sounds like Oracle had pretty much given up and wouldn't have merged your work anyways :-P > You (Apache) are lending your good name to a nasty endeavor, for the > benefit of a company > that has an history of screwing you over (Harmony ?) Heh. I think that you're missing a lot of information in that statement. Let me just hit a few highlights: * IBM helped us to START the Foundation * IBM contributed the original Axis, Xalan, Xerces, and Derby codebases (probably more) * IBM has contributed dozens and dozens of developers across Apache projects over the past decade * IBM pulled out of Harmony, but our code is *still* there and is *still* in use by people. there are still developers there, but not enough. the community has slowed down and is deciding what to do. IBM didn't "screw us", as any developer could leave any project at any time. that is the way it works * Oracle really screwed us on the JCP * Oracle is suing one of our Harmony users (Google and Android) So if we're gonna be pissed at anybody... it probably isn't IBM. But hey... we're above that. Remember our mission: provide software to the public. We're a CHARITY. We are not supposed to hold grudges. We're just supposed to move on, and build more code. > Ironically what seems to be happening at Apache is very reminiscent to > me to the ISO/MSXML debacle... > Some corporation exploiting the letter of your governance to better > abuse the spirit of it. I am sure that IBM will use our code for their own lucrative benefit. Apache exists to enable that. But we also exist to ensure that *anybody* can use our code to their own benefit. Including you. > (that is _if_ I understand what Apache stand for... but maybe I'm misguided) > > Norbert > > PS: I strongly encourage you to read: > http://www.itworld.com/software/170521/big-winner-apache-openofficeorg#comment-9942111 Yup. I read it when it was first published. Very good article. > That shed a very illuminating light on IBM's involvement in OOo, and > why it is hard to take seriously their grandiose promises... that > would by far not been the first time, and there is no reason to > believe that the outcome will be any different this time around... > except that both the OpenOffice brand and the Apache reputation will > be tarnished in the process... I disagree that will be the outcome, but... we'll just have to wait and see. Cheers, -g [1] http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/OpenOfficeProposal#Initial_Committers -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted