FOSS != £0. Free as in free, not beer. Monetising is something completely different. Open source projects can and do make money from their products too. There is nothing in the GPL to prevent this either. I understand the need for companies not to exclude in the field. That is another argument in itself. Slack has created a product that quite a fair few people want to use. So, they pay for it. Which is fair. The code not being free is entirely different to the practicality of using it. Again, this is a tangent.
In one breadth, you’re talking about ease of use. Now, you’re saying go and find the mailing list archives and search those. Things that take more time aren’t user friendly. You may think that the younger generation discuss x, y and z but then again - you don’t seem too bothered by excluding them - so is it any surprise they wouldn’t want to participate here? No one is forcing you to respond straight away on IM. Equally, your phone can beep at an email. You have control over the notifications - so not sure how that’s anyone else’s fault. I send an email, it can beep or not. You can reply, or not. IM offers this same functionality. The fact you feel obliged to reply to an IM is your problem. Again, I do not see why Slack / IRC / IM cannot be moderated and channel rules set. It’s not as if everyone responded to my thread in the way you describe as email promoting. If I wanted to troll this list, I could. Same as IM. If I wanted to send 10000 messages here, I could. Same as IM. That’s an issue with how users are using it, not the product itself. I have seen both used for both types of discussion you describe. If you have no incentive, don’t reply. If you do - then that statement isn’t quite true, no? Email lists aren’t encroaching. However, sending an email to someone on a list personally is. Whereas Slack, like IRC and IM fosters people connecting without the whole ‘who are you and why are you messaging me’. What is so wrong about a network where people can ask each other questions and share information? As opposed to little discussion and this generally stuffiness that is evident in the mailing lists. I don’t see why your preferences, and beliefs of older generations, should in themselves exclude others from participating. Nothing wrong with my client. Why should I waste my time searching? I’m not going to if it isn’t intuitive. End of. I don’t always care enough to do that. Slack makes this process simpler and there’s a higher chance users would actually look back. IM can be just as effective for long discussions. Or whatever term you want to call them. The only reason it ISN’T is because you only interact with one or the other in a specific way. That isn’t the client to blame, it is not practically limiting either - that’s you, as the user, to blame for that. Or users. Both email and IM can do both. Again, the destroying of usefulness and what not is how users use it. I know IRC channels that are just full of spammy posts. I also know others that are even far more serious than this mailing list. I don’t see why you have to limit yourself to simpler ways of doing things because you’re ‘scared’ of something being used in a specific way. It doesn’t have to be. As this list has shown, people make a network or discussion. Those people can respond however they like and you can never control that. I don’t see what’s wrong with more ‘open’ discussions. Sure, for you a more alike sending a letter around with people adding to it might seem effective enough - but more can be achieved - more can be shared - and more integrations can happen that may change how people interact through the LOPSA list. Participation could increase, which is fairly low in terms of mailing lists. You do not see this as a problem? It’s all great ten people discussing things but more people doing so, or more people taking an interest, would not only potentially get more knowledge out there but also increase the exposure of LOPSA. At the end of the day, there’s a reason people talk to their family on Facebook instead of sending a letter these days. You might want to consider why, and how you can engage people further - as Facebook and others have successfully done. Email usage is definitely decreasing. There are a lot of young system administrators out there who can’t even be bothered to use IRC, let alone a mailing list which they see as tedious. Different people communicate differently, It’s all great signing up and saying you’re a member of LOPSA - but non participation is of no use to anyone. Slack probably isn’t the answer. However, there has to be a way to increase participation and engagement around LOPSA. What’s your objection to this? Rather than arguing about it and both of us going back and forth like a tennis ball - why don’t we do this? This conversation has been pointless and gone nowhere so far - that can be changed. Allan > On 13 Jul 2015, at 16:36, Yves Dorfsman <[email protected]> wrote: > > > On 2015-07-13 07:46, Allan Irving wrote: >> > > Beside the let's replace the mailing discussion, and the flame war than > ensued, I find it interesting how you dismiss the value of slow long term > conversation vs immediacy. > >> I proposed Slack due to the immediacy and speed at which messages can be > responded to. Not everyone checks their emails every five minutes and from my > experience, people tend to overlook emails until which point as they can be > bothered to reply to them. > > This show exactly the difference between email and IM. IM is great when you > need the answer now. If you're not a friend and you're not paying me, I have > no incentive to stop what I'm doing to answer now. On the other hand, I don't > mind spending some time when it is convenient for me to participate in more > general discussions with "strangers". > > >> - Slack is multiplatform and integrates with everything. So does email. > However, Slack is a quicker way to communicate - email is not. Slack allows > for more discussion / in depth / a proper conversation. Email really does not > create conversations in the same way. > > I disagree... IM, "instant" messaging (which slack is), allows fast discussion > which promotes quick thinking, witty, answers, while email promotes slow, > researched thinking, which to me is more in-depth. > >> Equally, Slack allows multi channels much like signing up to different > mailing lists but does this more intuitively and it’s easier as opposed to > signing up and verifying. Equally, younger generations do not use mailing > lists as much as others. This is why many projects such as London Startups use > a Facebook group - and not a mailing list. > > We tend to be more interested in our identity and personal value when we are > young, and tend to move towards in-depth discussions focus on subject matter > rather than participant as we age and mature. Younger generations still use > usenet and mailing list, lots of young academic use both channel heavily. > > For example, 80% of discussions on /r/sysadmin are about "how stupid l'users > are" or "how management just doesn't understand it", while discussion on this > list are about professionalization, ethics, tools, how to stir one's career > etc.. > > >> - Slack allows for controlling who does and doesn’t join a channel and also > allows people to direct each other, whereas with email you have to email them > personally as opposed to a list which many may not want to do feeling they are > encroaching on someone’s personal email. > > You're conflating group vs private communication. Both exists in emails and > slack. There's no feeling of encroaching on anybody's private space when > emailing email lists. If anything, private messaging in slack is more > intrusive than email because it makes my phone beep at me. > >> >> - Email certainly does not have the same flow that Slack or IRC can produce > in that it is not as fast. You can easily see what someone else has said > before you reply in one whereas sending this email now, by the time I’ve sent > it likely another reply has already been made. > > Agreed sync vs async discussion. Both have their place, one isn't better than > the other. > > >> - Slack allows you to search in one place. Unless you have filtering rules - > you’re searching your whole inbox or reading through every message to find > what you want. Some of us get so many emails and archive them so this is not > as effective when searching your mailbox. > > Use a better email client!! > Or use the mailing list archives. > > >> - Slack has integrations. They work. Just like that. No clicking on links > and what not. It’s quicker - it’s there and it works. There are so many > > True, but that works both way, slack's amazing to attach a graph of some trend > I'm really worried about, on the other hand people can literally kill the > usefulness of a channel because they feel that they have to express all their > feelings by linking to images which show up automatically in slack and > immediately destroy is usefulness. > > >> - I do not agree that mailing lists are the best way to exchange information > and do hold the belief that even IRC is far more effective. > > "More effective" in a specific context, when answers are needed immediately. > Less effective for long term in-depth discussion. > >> - Slack is not open source but this is not the FSF. I do not see what > difference that makes. Office 365 isn’t FOSS either but is still widely used. > I only see this as a hindrance in terms of a FOSS debate, not in practical > terms. > > It is important. Google Facebook etc.. have made sure IM are a bunch of > isolated islands. That is really sad. Slack, Yammer etc... are doing exactly > the same with IRC. You could argue that they could have just written an > amazing IRC client and it'd be as good as current slack, but they wouldn't be > able to monetize that. Federation and free participation, is like a multiplier > for technology, but it does mean that somebody has to sponsor it (either a > company giving technology away for free, or volunteers spending hours coding > for the hope of notability). > > > -- > http://yves.zioup.com > gpg: 4096R/32B0F416 > > _______________________________________________ > Discuss mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.lopsa.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discuss > This list provided by the League of Professional System Administrators > http://lopsa.org/ _______________________________________________ Discuss mailing list [email protected] https://lists.lopsa.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discuss This list provided by the League of Professional System Administrators http://lopsa.org/
