On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 6:52 AM, Paul Moore <p.f.mo...@gmail.com> wrote: > On 14 March 2012 02:50, Carl Meyer <c...@oddbird.net> wrote: >> In terms of distribution format, this sounds great; I think a clean >> break and new format that existing systems will just naturally ignore is >> the way to go. > > Agreed. I created a patch a while ago for a "bdist_simple" format, > which has languished in the tracker for a while. It's a very basic > patch, and the format is essentially just a stripped down version of > the wininst format (a zip file with distinguished placeholder > directories at the top level). I'm not sure I understand Jim's issues > with the wininst format, so I can't respond as to why this wouldn't > address them.
My main issue is that I think we need a standard binary format that isn't system dependent. I see the wininst format as sort of a two-edged sword for libraries. On the one hand, it makes installing libraries natural for Windows users, on the other, it encourages poor hygiene. ... >> Your message doesn't address the on-disk installed format. I hope that >> the installed format (at least the d2/p default) will be consistent with >> PEP 376 (unzipped and "flat"), not an egg-style importable zip file >> relying on its own dedicated entry in a pth file. > > I agree that a flat on-disk format is essential. It's what pip and the > standard tools use. Um....nevermind. > The .pth based egg format appears to only have > benefits if you want to manage multiple versions, and as far as I can > see that requirement is now better satisfied via virtualenv/pip. I don't see how virtualenv/pip address that. I assume you mean that if 2 applications/scripts require two different versions of a package, they should use two separate virtualenvs. That feels kinda heavy to me, but to each their own. :) FTR, buildout uses eggs to support multiple package versions. It doesn't use .pth files, but bakes necessary paths into generated scripts. Buildout on d2/p will continue creating egg-like structures, both to support multiple versions and to support caching and sharing installed packages. > One other point - it's actually relatively easy to write a tool to > introspect egg and wininst format files, and unpack them manually into > the on-disk layout needed. I have the bones of such a thing for pip > (needs completing before I can release it). > > I would suggest that for backward compatibility and transition > purposes, the following things need to be considered: > > - There should be converters from egg and wininst formats to the new > format. Not everyone will start producing the new format immediately, > and we should offer users a migration path where packagers haven't > moved over. These should be trivial to write. +1 ... > - External tools like pip will need to handle the new format, ideally. > Or at least keep out of the way when pysetup install is used. I'm > assuming that pysetup install works in a virtualenv. My hope is that pip will eventually use d2/p. > Is the intention to promote the new format for older Python versions > as well, via distutils2, Yes > or will this be a purely Python 3.3 option? No. > If the former, conversion and compatibility is crucial, +1 ... > The key here is that the new format needs to be a unifying effort - we > already have 3 binary formats, if this new format merely adds a > fourth, then in my view it's a failure. It needs to be the "one > obvious way" if it's to work. > > Paul. > > PS A couple of relevant python-dev threads, for people who haven't seen them: > > http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2011-October/114285.html > http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2011-October/113956.html > http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2011-October/114243.html Thanks for sharing these. You raise an interesting point in the last link. It's reasonable to argue that this is only a windows problem. It could be argued that, on other platforms: - Consumers of applications should get application installers, possibly with embedded copies of Python. - Consumers of libraries are developers who should be able to install development tools. I find the notion that we only need a binary format for Windows unsatisfying and unsettling, but if everyone else feels that way, I can live with it. Jim -- Jim Fulton http://www.linkedin.com/in/jimfulton _______________________________________________ Distutils-SIG maillist - Distutils-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/distutils-sig
