> I would like to see examples of this; I have a pretty comprehensive > set of ego searches and tag subscriptions for Django-related postings, > and I don't get the "Django is closed, don't bother trying to get > involved" vibe as much as you apparently do. So I'd really be > interested to see examples if that's what people are saying.
Every single comparison of Gears to Django I have read say something to the effect of "Gears is more community based". I think that's pretty clear if you read between the lines. And part of what I'm going on about is addressed in your blog, so obviously you have also encountered these perceptions too. > This is something I don't really understand; the appropriate amount of > discussion is however much discussion it takes to get the job done. I disagree here again. If you believe the only goal is to produce good software as fast as possible, then yes, you are correct. But management is not only about short term goals. In other words, my point is that I think Django has done an amazing job of short term management, I mean, god damned amazing, hats off. But continuing the same path will be at the potential expense of long term goals. Management absolutely needs to change as a project grows and matures, we know that to be true. That which gets the best immediate results is not usually the same thing that gets the best long term results, and that which is appropriate at the beginning of a long and complicated project is not going to continue to be the best plan for ever. Sure, getting a lot done at conferences makes sense. And yes, rehashing on a mailing list everything from the conference is a pain in the ass. And floating ideas and decisions from the conference on a mailing list for a few days worth of public comment is slow and seems like wasted time. And writing good developer docs is a pain too. ( Though Django is very very good in that department. ) Is it worth it in the short term? No, the time spent writing could be spent coding. And it *was* the right way to go. Until now, now meaning the last six months whilst the dev team has been blitzing on the publicity and attracting a ton of attention and thus potential developers. ( Gotta say, great job on the PR too! ) Is it worth it in the long term? *If* one of the long term goals is to attract a growing dev community that can in the future outdo current productivity levels, then absolutely yes. You have *no idea* who is lurking on here. You could have super geniuses who don't feel inclined to comment because they see little of that type of discussion or because they don't feel their input is really wanted. Again, Fogel has a fantastic anecdote about exactly that happening with the dev of Subversion. And here's the catch, they *won't say anything*. Most will just ... leave. Another extremely important sales/management truth is that the people you turn off *will not tell you* while the people who love you will yak their mouths off. So you absolutely can not believe that just because you only *hear* positive feedback that everything is cool. Developers who maybe decide they would be more welcome at RoR or Gears aren't going to say anything here when they make that decision! > Taking advantage of conferences to get developers in the same room is > not the same thing as "you can only participate if you go to > conferences x, y and z". Again, I don't follow your logic (and, again, > I'd like to see some of your claims substantiated by reference to > relevant postings expressing people's "perceptions" of Django). Well I can't say I feel the need to do so as the impression I get from this reply and your blog is that you are more concerned with "being right" ( proving Django is doing everything right as it stands ) than "getting what you want" ( having Django become as good as it could be ). I won't argue coding because I know I'm nothing special, but I am an excellent project manager. One of the very best lessons you can learn in sales/management/coaching is to keep your eye on "what you want" in the long run without getting distracted by wanting "to be right" at the moment. I am reporting on my perception. As such, I can *not be wrong*. Something gave me that perception and it's not the first FLOSS dev list I've been on by a long shot. A better response would be "point taken, we'll consider all that." Even if you don't plan to. Arguing with your public's perceptions is totally pointless and only reinforces their misconceptions. > > Again, I don't that is a good model for *attracting development*. > > One might counter that the goal of a software project is to produce > good software, not to attract every developer on the planet ;) Very true. But then this begs the question, why open source it? If you do want to understand where I am coming from, read the Fogel book and reflect on what it means that I got that perception, and I have lurked or been active on probably a dozen FLOSS dev communities. I don't get anything out of this except to hopefully help Django dev management in some small way, I know my project management insights have helped out in other cases. I don't work for anyone or belong to the media or anything. Anyway, I think I have said all that needs saying on it, and I know that the developers on here are all smart cookies so I'm sure people will at least think about it some time, which was all I was trying to achieve. Iain --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django developers" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
