On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 9:24 PM, Christopher Allan Webber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > So, by now the primary problem with Django is not the lack of good > applications. There are tons of good applications. The primary problem > is that almost none of them work together. There are a few reasons for > this... some of it has to do with templating, some of it has to do with > people not using url reversal, and some of it has to do with the fact > that most large django applications want to install some non-models > related administrative ability to the django admin, so most of them > override the admin templates in ways that make them incompatible. But > by far the biggest problem (and which encourages these other problems > even more) is projects. > > Projects! > > I probably don't need to go into detail about *why* projects are bad. > That's been discussed plenty before: > http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers/browse_thread/thread/e9d92bceab679f6a > > But it's such a shame... we know that we're teaching bad habits from the > very beginning. We know that tying applications to a specific project > make those applications either unusable or very difficult to use with > installations outside that project. And yet we still teach it! And the > vast majority of users still follow these bad teachings. Some of the > best, most high profile django projects follow these bad practices, like > Review Board. And it isn't their fault! > > If there was a cancer that was rapidly spreading through sexual contact, > but which was preventable by being vaccinated early on, what would the > best thing to do be? Sure, it's worth our time to treat the victims, > but it's much less costly if we just stop the problem upfront by > vaccinating. In fact, it's even worse. It's like we're handing our > users a bottle of lube known to be contaminated with the stuff and > saying, "Here you go guys, apply liberally." > > Okay, that analogy starts to break down when you think about it too > much. But the point is, it's easier to prevent by teaching good > practices from the get-go. > > So, django's documentation is already suggesting that we want users to > do the right thing: > > Philosophy > > Django apps are "pluggable": You can use an app in multiple projects, > and you can distribute apps, because they don't have to be tied to a > given Django installation. > > Unfortunately, this is telling users that right after telling them how > to set up their site structure with "startproject". And there is no > mention, here or later, that there is a better way of doing things, and > a pointer to whatever kind of document would help describe that way. > > In the previous discussion, James Bennett listed two solutions to this: > > 1. Expand the default application skeleton, or differentiate somehow > between a minimal, "traditional" app skeleton and a more robust one > which includes files and directories oriented at a distributable > application. > > 2. Spend a lot more time documenting best practices of application > development, possibly even mentioning in the tutorial that the > "apps inside project" model it uses is followed for convenience and > not because it's the best/only way to work. > > People seemed to be in favour of number two, which is "Teach the bad > habits with an emphasis that these habits are bad, and that there is > documentation to do things right." I think this is fine (teachers and > professors do this all the time with their intro students)... we just > need to do it. > > I am more than happy to help with writing up documentation, whatever. I > just want to see django applications work together as a big, happy, > pluggable family.
Then what are you waiting for? Start writing. It's easy to tell others what needs to be done. It's a lot harder to actually do the work. We are only too happy to accept any offer of help to improve our documentation. However, that help needs to come in the form of a patch to documentation, not as a "hey guys, you know what you should do" post on a mailing list. We already know that our documentation could be better. There are any number of new tutorials, howtos and guides that could be written that would be of benefit to the Django community. What we don't have is an infinite supply of time to turn these ideas into reality. If you want to help out, we're only to happy to provide feedback or advice during the drafting process. However, the only meaningful feedback we can provide on a concept is "Sounds great, show us a draft". So.... Sounds great! Show us a draft! :-) Also... regarding the subject of this post: the phrase is "nip it in the bud", not "nip it in the butt"... unless, of course, your HPV/lube analogy was going somewhere else entirely.... :-) Yours, Russ Magee %-) --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django developers" group. To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
