> This has been resolved by using the ImmutableList datastructure

Looks fine. Behaviourally it's the same as a tuple, but with more explicit 
errors if you attempt to modify it, which seems reasonable.

Given that `.get_fields()` and `.fields` return `ImmutableList`, presumably 
`.field_names`, `.concrete_fields` and `.local_concrete_fields` should do 
as well right?

> A tuple is *not* "just an immutable list".

Interestingly, that's a point where we'd differ. In my mental model a 
programming construct is defined *purely* by it's behaviour, with no room 
for any 'conceptual' or 'theroretical' difference - as far as I'm concerned 
an (unnamed) python tuple really *is* just an immutable python list.

I think any further conversation on that is out of the scope of this list, 
but I've heard both positions advocated, and figured it's an interesting 
point to note. :)

(And it does have the occasional impact on how we'd choose to write 
documentation examples etc...)

All the best & keep up the great work,

  Tom


On Wednesday, 6 August 2014 01:33:53 UTC+1, Russell Keith-Magee wrote:
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 12:54 AM, Łukasz Rekucki <[email protected] 
> <javascript:>> wrote:
>
>> On 4 August 2014 16:14, Daniel Pyrathon <[email protected] <javascript:>> 
>> wrote:
>> > Hi All,
>> >
>> > This has been resolved by using the ImmutableList datastructure
>> >
>> > 
>> https://github.com/PirosB3/django/blob/soc2014_meta_refactor_upgrade_flags_get_field_tree/django/db/models/options.py#L629
>> >
>>
>> But why? What's the benefit over using a tuple? ImmutableList is not
>> even a list, because it inherits from tuple.
>>
>
> Communication. 
>
> From a purist theoretical perspective, there shouldn't be any argument - 
> the data we're talking about is a list. Lists have homogeneous elements; 
> Tuples have heterogeneous elements, but have *positional* homogeneity. A 
> "Point" is a tuple, because element 0 of the tuple "means" the x 
> coordinate. A Database row is a tuple - The first element is the primary 
> key (an integer), second is the "name" column (a string), and so on.
>
> A tuple is *not* "just an immutable list".
>
> From a pragmatic perspective, tuples are faster to work with, because they 
> aren't carrying around all the baggage needed to support mutability. And, 
> in this case, there is a risk of an end-user accidentally mutating the 
> result of get_fields(), which, due to cache-related optimizations, means 
> there's a risk of side effects.
>
> So - in this case, at a theoretical level, we are dealing with an list of 
> homogeneous objects (fields) that must be either immutable, or copied every 
> time it is used. Copying is a bit expensive (not *completely* prohibitive, 
> but noticeable), so that means we need to look to immutability. At a 
> theoretical I'm not wild about the fact that ImmutableList subclassing 
> tuple - it should be subclassing *list* - but I'm willing to defer to 
> pragmatism. Given that we're dealing with a relative internal detail that 
> most users won't be exposed to, I'm willing to hold my nose and accept 
> optimised solutions over theoretically pure solutions in the interests of 
> *all* users having better performance.
>
> Yours,
> Russ Magee %-)
>
>

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