Wow, `distutils.util.strtobool` is great to know about!
So, can we refocus this conversation? This is starting to look like
previous conversations on this topic, which pull in a lot of possibilities
but don't lead to a change. How do we go about generating a DEP or other
consensus-building tool on what we want here?
It seems to me this conversation has historically gotten stuck by trying to
bite off a bigger bite. Therefore, I would recommend a minimal change that
gestures towards the direction we want to explore.
Personally, I think that *at minimum* providing Django-builtin "get from
env" helpers would be great; beyond that, I'd love to have them be
included around `DEBUG` and `SECRET_KEY` with the current values as
defaults, so they're optional. Once we see how this gets used, we can see
about passing it a file instead of `os.environ`, or borrowing other ideas
from any of the various supporting projects that have been suggested.
It's clear that different people have different use-cases and different
needs, but regardless, I think that it's clear also that including values
like DEBUG and SECRET_KEY as *hard coded values in settings* by default
does not point people towards good practices. What "good practices" are is
likely to differ in each person's case, but I think that suggesting one
option (again, my vote is "look in the environment") will at least help
newer devs understand that this is a topic they should learn more about.
Thanks,
--Kit
On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 11:16 AM Javier Buzzi <buzzi.jav...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Hi Bobby, yes, thank you, this looks around the line of what i would like
> us to implement in Django.
>
> Side note: i saw this config('DEBUG', default=False, cast=bool) and
> thought "there is NO WAY that works", that led me to from distutils.util
> import strtobool, absolute mind blown! Thanks!
>
> -Buzzi
>
> On Thursday, June 25, 2020 at 1:03:19 PM UTC-4, Bobby Mozumder wrote:
>>
>> There’s also python-decouple that I use that I haven’t seen mentioned in
>> this thread. It lets you set specific environment variables in a separate
>> .env file or INI file: https://github.com/henriquebastos/python-decouple
>>
>> -bobby
>>
>> On Jun 25, 2020, at 4:47 AM, Javier Buzzi <buzzi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hey Tom, cool project haven't heard of it, looks to me more inline with
>> validating and converting user input from an api/form. I could really see
>> myself using this in my personal projects, however this looks like we'd be
>> going back to the class based configuration that im trying to avoid.
>> Nonetheless thank you for the share!
>>
>> - Buzzi
>>
>> On Thursday, June 25, 2020 at 4:34:11 AM UTC-4, Tom Carrick wrote:
>>>
>>> Javier, I just wanted to point out another option for configuration:
>>> pydantic <https://pydantic-docs.helpmanual.io/> - it offers a very
>>> slick and intuitive interface for settings management across environments,
>>> seamless handing of environment variables by using type hints, and so on. I
>>> wouldn't recommend it for anything other than large sites with complex
>>> configurations, but it does work well for those, once you grapple with how
>>> to integrate it with django's settings so they're all exposed as
>>> `settings.FOO`, and so on.
>>>
>>> I don't think I would want to integrate anything like this into Django
>>> proper, but it might deserve a mention in the documentation.
>>>
>>> Tom
>>>
>>> On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 at 23:52, Javier Buzzi <buzzi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> This makes sense, I have a project that has a lot of settings files
>>>> that get activated depending on the value of DJANGO_SETTINGS_MODULE. The
>>>> solution i outlined above takes your reservations under consideration, if
>>>> you want to use it, great, if not also great -- its a supplement not a
>>>> requirement.
>>>>
>>>> - Buzzi
>>>>
>>>> On Wednesday, June 24, 2020 at 5:24:35 PM UTC-4, Dan Davis wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> tMost of the world is not as seamless as heroku. My DevOps won't
>>>>> give me any more than a handful of environment variables. I wanted
>>>>> something like DATABASE_URL, but all I have is DJANGO_LOG_DIR and
>>>>> DJANGO_SETTINGS_MODULE, and so I need many, many settings files. I think
>>>>> that happens a lot, and maybe a common pattern.
>>>>>
>>>>> From a 12factor perspective, I would like to get it down to local
>>>>> settings (development) and production settings - yet for a lot of users,
>>>>> DevOps is not really supporting a full PaaS-like experience any way.
>>>>>
>>>>> So - all of this has to be optional, which seems to rule out making it
>>>>> part of the starting project template. For sure, I've got my personal
>>>>> template, and work has an on-premise template and a Cloud template as well
>>>>> - but the department of developers doesn't always use these. I find
>>>>> databases containing the tables for other projects, long after the models
>>>>> and migrations are gone, indicating a start by copy mode.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Jun 24, 2020 at 1:35 PM Kit La Touche <kit...@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Carlton—thanks very much for the feedback. Javier—likewise. In
>>>>>> particular, the imagined API you describe above is very appealing to me:
>>>>>> start with `from_env` and then if you learn more about this and want to,
>>>>>> add in some `EnvFileLoader`.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I want to make clear my motivation and agenda here: I have recently
>>>>>> had some conversations with newer devs about their experiences with
>>>>>> deployment of apps they're working on, and with a friend at Heroku about
>>>>>> his informal research into the problems people have with the same. One
>>>>>> recurring friction point (and this is not just on Heroku at all, to be
>>>>>> clear) is that there are a number of things that people *don't know
>>>>>> they need to configure* for a working deployment.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There are four settings that are recurring particular gotchas that
>>>>>> people miss: the secret key, debug, static files, and databases. Static
>>>>>> files seems big and out of scope, databases seems adequately handled by
>>>>>> dj-database-url for most cases, and if your case is more complex, you'll
>>>>>> learn it, but the other two (secret key and debug) seemed easy enough to
>>>>>> flag as "you probably need to configure these!" with this sort of change
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> settings. This would be a first step towards shortening the distance from
>>>>>> `startproject` to a working deployment.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Newer devs in particular have, based on my conversations and this
>>>>>> friend's research, been unlikely to (a) know that there are different
>>>>>> `startproject` templates, and (b) feel equipped to choose one, if they do
>>>>>> know.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My hope is to make the smallest possible change to just start us
>>>>>> moving towards more clearly flagging, especially for newer devs, "these
>>>>>> are
>>>>>> things that will need additional configuration in order to move from
>>>>>> 'works
>>>>>> on my machine' to 'deployed'."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Towards that end, I thought that adding a "you might want to get this
>>>>>> from the env" helper would be a clear indication to a new dev that this
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> a matter to even consider. Adding other configuration-getting options
>>>>>> like
>>>>>> different secret-store file backends seems like a good next step.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --Kit
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 24, 2020 at 11:13 AM Javier Buzzi <buzzi...@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I looked at the libs that do what we want:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> django-configurations - it looks like they use environment variables
>>>>>>> / either via loading them from the environ or a key/value pair file.
>>>>>>> Having
>>>>>>> classes inside the settings.py might be weird to people.. at the least
>>>>>>> very
>>>>>>> different.
>>>>>>> confucius - very simplistic, only supports environ and is classed
>>>>>>> based, similar to django-configurations.
>>>>>>> django-environ - supports env file and environ, non-class based.
>>>>>>> dynaconf - supports all kinds of loading options (toml, json, ini,
>>>>>>> environ, .env +) non-class based.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In my opinion, django-environ and dynaconf would be the easiest to
>>>>>>> sell to the community, it would require the least changes/paradigm
>>>>>>> shifts
>>>>>>> from how everyone is already using django.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Personally, i would really like to see something like this inside my
>>>>>>> settings.py:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> from django.conf import from_env # using standard os.environ
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> DEBUG = from_env.bool("DEBUG", default=False)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> DATABASES = {
>>>>>>> "default": from_env.db("DATABASE_URL") # crash if it cant
>>>>>>> find it
>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> for more complex examples:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> from django.conf import EnvFileLoader
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> from_env = EnvFileLoader("path/to/.secret")
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We can have how ever many loaders we want: toml, json, ini ..
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is both borrowing heavily from dynaconf and django-environ,
>>>>>>> making the fewest changes to how people are accustomed to doing things.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> .. what do you guys think?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> - Buzzi
>>>>>>>
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