On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 09:41:08AM -0700, Isaac Dunham wrote:
> I'd like to respond to this, even though I think 'no change' is the best
> policy at the moment.
>
> On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 12:41:18AM +0200, Didier Kryn wrote:
> > Le 15/07/2015 18:02, Klaus Ethgen a écrit :
> > >Even though mc is something good for beginners but debian or devuan is
> > >not focusing on beginners and even devuan is focusing on "veteran unix
> > >admins" so vi(m) would be the only proper choice.:-D
> > I remember 30 years ago, there was an admin in my lab advocating for vi.
> > I tried to find a manual and couldn't find one. Several time I watched the
> > guy editing some files and was impressed by how painfull it was to him to
> > change a single character in a text. I have been using emacs and emacs-like
>
> Change a single letter:
> <navigate to letter>
> r<new letter>
> :x<Enter>
>
> Sorry, I don't see how that's painful unless you're talking about someone
> who either didn't know the software or had a hard time finding the letter.
Many beginners don't know the software.
Many experienced usersdon't know the software, because they use a different
editor.
That's exactly the problem. That's why vi isn't suitable as an initial
default editor, however useful it may be as a user-chosen editor.
...
...
> Honestly, the first time I encountered nano, I thought "How on earth do
> you use this?"
> Sure, it has the cheat sheet right at the bottom of the screen, but even
> then a *new* user will be lost by the terminology they use ("Write out"?
> "Where is"? What does "cur pos" mean? How do you select text? How do you
> paste text?).
>
> That said, the first time I encountered vi I was even more baffled;
> sure, I read a description of how to use hjkl, i, and :wq/:q!, but even
> if you commit that to memory, press one wrong key and you're done.
> (Speaking of which, it would be really nice if we could at least enable
> multiple undo by default...)
> And I really don't think that there's a way to make vi user-friendly.
> But pick up any book on learning *nix, and within a few chapters you'll
> find a section on vi. And the fact that it's a relative of sed is a point
> that makes it easier to pick up.
>
> But I have never managed to figure out how to use emacs, and even the way
> the keybindings are written is a bit of a WTF. (Whose idea was it to
> represent the modifier keys by the first letter of their *nix name?)
Emacs isn't suitable either.
>
> If I were to pick a default editor with the intent of making an easy-to-use
> system, my first pick would be joe/jupp; while it doesn't have the cheat
> sheet at the bottom of the screen, it tells you how to get help, and that
> help is more useful than nano's.
I haven't tried joe. Maybe it's better than nano. Maybe it would be an
excellent initial default editor. Is it small? Does it require a GUI?
But neither vi not emacs are suitable as initial default editor.
-- hendrik
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