On Sun, Nov 12, 2017 at 09:36:17PM +0100, Joerg Reisenweber wrote: > On Sun 12 November 2017 19:45:02 Adam Borowski wrote: > > On Sun, Nov 12, 2017 at 12:14:33PM +0100, Joerg Reisenweber wrote: > > > The "too much work" argument is a very embarrassing one - it's the genuine > > > duty of distro maintainers to take care of exactly such stuff. The > > > argument > > > that something was "too much work" (for the distro maintainers, or even > > > the > > > developers) is moot unless you're doing all that for yourself or for > > > developers instead of your users. > > > Claiming that a decision whether to put a package into /bin or /usr/bin > > > (resp *sbin*) was "too much work" is also outright silly, there's zero > > > additional workload in placing the package into the right location, > > > except for the needed knowhow and decision itself. It's just for the > > > laziness of developers of boot/init process when they demand to > > > indiscriminately have access to *all* existing binaries in /usr > > > > The work involved is not just "zero", it's _massive_. Have you looked at > > how extensive dependency chains can be for complex setups? Try mounting a > > filesystem over wifi that requires a fancy authentication daemon. > > Sorry, I think when you take up on the task to develop and maintain an init > system,
And what exactly developing an init system (which is unrelated to making a distribution) has to do with this? > and you want to mount a filesystem via WiFi (what a weird idea) What's wrong with this? > *before* you mounted /usr/ Most large companies use a non-trivial method of authentication, sometimes downright bizarre. >, and then you claim that's *too much work* aka too > complicated for *you* to accomplish this the right way and thus you need all > /usr/ in root, then really so sorry to tell you I think you're simply not up > to the task at hand Have you _tried_ doing so? Or even listened to anyone who did? Supporting every use case -- even just use cases widespread in the wild -- is a massive task. That your machine at home is content with a particular setup doesn't make it worthwhile to provide a separate scheme just to cater for that special snowflake. A generic, powerful and low-effort scheme exists (initrd) thus doing it the hard way is a waste of time. What's most important, not _your_ time. > Anyway thanks for proving my point that it's just about laziness (or - now I > have to add - maybe mere incompetence) of the systemd cabal and freedesktop > folks and other proponents of /usr( in rootfs. And what exactly systemd has to do with this? Newsflash: Debian does _not_ run systemd inside initrd. > > Every > > involved package, and every library recursively depended upon by one of > > those packages, would need to be moved to /{bin,sbin,lib}/. > > > > Debian, with its north of 1000 developers, decided that, despite trying, > > it's a lost cause. Do you think Devuan with 5 can do better? > > Yes, since those 5 understand that the other 995+ don't give a damn about > where /usr/ lives since their apps get started *after* init and mount of > filesystems It's way more than 5 people whose packages get run before remote (and even local) filesystems get mounted. And those people are tired with jumping through hoops for no benefit. > > And if all you want is merely separate /usr, the whole extra cost is > > installing "tiny-initramfs" which includes a trivial initrd whose features > > (and complexity) are limited to: > > * CPU microcode > > * /usr > > * root=UUID > > * root on nfs in some configurations > > * _very_ minimal module loading, with no real automation. This is usually > > inadequate for distribution kernels, you need to recompile your kernel > > with required pieces statically. > > > > At least microcode is mandatory on any modern x86 CPUs, > > > ...since this is *obviously* completely unrelated to mounting /usr/ > Why don't systemd and "friends" mount /usr/ via such minimal ramdisk? initrd acts _before_ the filesystem /bin/init is on is even mounted. It is possible to run a separate copy of systemd inside initrd, Red Hat does so. Meow! -- ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ Laws we want back: Poland, Dz.U. 1921 nr.30 poz.177 (also Dz.U. ⣾⠁⢰⠒⠀⣿⡁ 1920 nr.11 poz.61): Art.2: An official, guilty of accepting a gift ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ or another material benefit, or a promise thereof, [in matters ⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ relevant to duties], shall be punished by death by shooting. _______________________________________________ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng