Hello Ecofeminist! A friend of mine Chris King suggested that I join this list to be able to discuss with you the problem of sexism I am having on the Ecobalance listserv and within the Ecovillage movement. For more information on the GEN organization, please see: http//www.gaia.org I look forward to what ecofeminists think of this situation. most truly, Doctress Neutopia --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 18:44:26 +0000 To: neutopia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Stephan Wik) Subject: Re:NEUTOPIA AT THE FARM At 10:53 am -0500 1/11/97, neutopia wrote: > NEUTOPIA AT THE FARM Your posting was in flagrant violation of the ecobalance list charter. You have been unsubscribed from the list and you are not welcome to return. This is not open for discussion. --------------------------------------------------------- Stephan Wik Eco-Village Information Service List Admin http://www.gaia.org/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] Westport, Ireland -------------------------------------------------------------------------- To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 23:51:39 -0500 (EST) Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dear Albert, I wrote that essay to warn you how the ecovillage movement is excluding female leadership and spirituality. The above message proves my point. This is CENSORSHIP! The ideas I address are important and need to be openly discussed if the movement is to become a social liberation movement! This is the action of a tyranny, not a democracy. Albert, if you LOVE democracy and free speech help me open up the forum! We will never create a free and beautiful work if women's voices got suppressed. Please don't fear where my voice is leading us. Have faith that it is a healing voice, one which feeds the hungry and builds ecovillages of peace for everyone who needs to live in the balance. World Love, Doctress Neutopia PS. Censorship is the worst crime in the world. It stops enlightening ideas of doing the job they were created to do! I plea with you to work in cooperation with me so that we can stop the suffering! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: NEUTOPIA AT THE FARM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Stephan Wik) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 17:52:47 -0500 (EST) Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mr. Wik, Is there no place for thoughtful, peaceful dissent on the Ecobalance listserv? If there is no place for open discussion in the Ecovillage movement, then what kind of organization are you creating? You profess to be a movement about grassroot democracy. Thomas Jefferson understood that democracy can not exist without freedom of speech. Since there appears to be no place for women to raise such issues as why the GEN hierarchy is all male, or a place where we can discuss ecofeminist issues without being censored, or talk opening in public about men in the movement who are treating women cruelly, then you are simply being as tyrannical as the mainstream corporate structure which tries to keep us silent. So, I request that you re-examine your position in order to see how important it is to have an Ecovillage listserv which allows free thought and criticism to exist. Please re-subscribe me to the listserv. To not allow a feminist voice to be heard is an act of sexist oppression. Such acts of censorship are tactics used by dictatorships and fascists to suppress social liberation movements. If you really believe in "Ecobalance", then women need to have a voice. After all, we are responsible for at least half the universe! World peace and human understanding to you, Doctress Neutopia -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 02 Nov 1997 20:23:16 -0600 To: neutopia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> From: Lee Flier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Ecobalance List You wrote: >Mr. Wik, > >Is there no place for thoughtful, peaceful dissent on the Ecobalance >listserv? If there is no place for open discussion in the Ecovillage >movement, then what kind of organization are you creating? Well, I'm not Mr. Wik, but I am an active member of the Ecobalance listserv and the Ecovillage movement. I also happen to be female. Stephan wanted to give me the opportunity to explain to you why, in MY opinion, the post you sent was unacceptable and violates the charter of the list. If you have critical remarks regarding the Farm, or the Ecovillage movement in general, we are all ears. The issue here is not criticism or free speech or oppression of women, it is SLANDER. You have slandered another person publicly. In fact Mr. Bates could very well sue you if he so desired. As you must know there are certain instances where free speech is not applicable. It is not acceptable to yell "fire!" in a crowded theater, and it is not acceptable to defame someone else's character publicly. To be critical of the public works of Mr. Bates or his organization is acceptable; if you have personal differences with him a public forum is certainly not the place for it - whether your allegations are true or not. Please accept responsibility for your own personal relationships if you wish to be free of "tyranny." There are plenty of "feminist voices" on the Ecobalance listserv that are being heard. We are not "oppressed" and we do not accept the role of a victim. We express ourselves freely every day and we don't feel that anyone is being "tyrannical" simply because they don't want to see character defamation occurring in a public forum. So please don't hide behind feminism and claim that "women need to have a voice" (we already have several, thanks) when it is a strictly individual problem. I would certainly think it would serve women better if we all spoke with maturity and dignity, rather than lashing out at those with whom we have had personal differences. I sincerely hope you can learn something positive from this experience and move on. 'Nuff said. Lee Flier --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Ecobalance List To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Lee Flier) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 00:29:33 -0500 (EST) Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Lee Flier writes: > The issue here is not criticism or free > speech or oppression of women, it is SLANDER. You have slandered another > person publicly. In fact Mr. Bates could very well sue you if he so desired. Lee, just because you are a female doesn't mean you are a woman and will stand up for the rights of women. I didn't slander, Mr. Bates. So, it will not stand up in court. He is a public figure, a leader of a movement and the public needs to know the way he lies to women, the Cause, and to himself. > critical of the public works of Mr. Bates or his organization is > acceptable; if you have personal differences with him a public forum is > certainly not the place for it - whether your allegations are true or not. > Please accept responsibility for your own personal relationships if you > wish to be free of "tyranny." One of the chief cries of the feminist movement has been that the personal is the political. I practice this philosophy in my writing. We need to talk about our sexual relationships with men if we are ever going to find peace and harmony in this world by stopping sexist men from getting into positions of power. You write that there are plenty of "feminist voices" on the Ecobalance listserv. Well, I know one whom you have chopped off her head! And so there must be others. Again, I didn't defame Albert. He defamed himself! You people are allowing him to stay in power by not publishing my essay exposing his lack of good character. He admitted to me that he was a misogynist. What more do you want? Do you think a man who has admitted to the CRIME of hating women should be one of the leaders of GEN? > I would certainly think it would serve women better if we all spoke with > maturity and dignity, rather than lashing out at those with whom we have had > personal differences. I really don't think you read my essay because it was written with a great deal of love. It is love which brings about maturity and dignity. Your censorship of me will be exposed! Your refusing to stand for freedom of speech is appalling! Doctress Neutopia ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >From neutopia Mon Nov 3 10:46:28 1997 Subject: Re: Ecobalance List To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Lee Flier) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 10:46:28 -0500 (EST) Dear Lee, just a few more closing comments. Lee writes: > In fact Mr. Bates could very well sue you if he so desired. Lets hope that he does sue me. Its about time freedom of speech issues over the ecofeminist point of view has its time in court. Perhaps I can get my friend Max Stranhan to represent me. He has been successful in getting laws passed to help Right Whales from going extinct. They call him the Whale man. Max and Albert in court over the rights of Doctress Neutopia! Now that would be something to see! > We are not "oppressed" and we do not accept the role of a > victim. I am clearly the victim of your evil censorship crime! -- <*> Doctress Neutopia aka Libby Hubbard, Ed.D <!> Futurist who has a vision of a global network < <---- of ecovillages and ecocities of truelove... > > *** http://genesis.tiac.net/neutopia/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 12:02:30 -0600 To: neutopia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> From: Lee Flier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Ecobalance List At 12:29 AM 11/3/97 -0500, you wrote: >Lee, just because you are a female doesn't mean you are a woman and will >stand up for the rights of women. I didn't slander, Mr. Bates. So, it >will not stand up in court. He is a public figure, a leader of a movement >and the public needs to know the way he lies to women, the Cause, and to >himself. Sorry but I disagree. Public figures, like anyone else, have their flaws and are not saints. Unless they break the law, their personal lives are none of the "public's" business, nor does somebody's personal conduct necessarily taint their public work. If you looked into the personal life of any highly respected public figure you would find something that would contradict what they say they stand for. The fact that they struggle to overcome their weaknesses, or are able to do good work in spite of them, is what makes a person human. The other half of the equation is FORGIVENESS on the part of those who see their weaker side. That's an important one. >One of the chief cries of the feminist movement has been that the personal >is the political. Well then, again I disagree. I think this is a cop-out and a way for people to avoid taking responsibility for their personal problems, by making them public issues. Ya know, sometimes relationships just DON'T WORK OUT. It happens. And sometimes the people involved lie to each other about it because they think it will be less painful that way. End of story. Nothing political about it, at leaset not anything that the public needs to do anything about. It's happened to most of us, of both sexes, at one time or another. Happened to me once. I cried on my friends' shoulders for a few months. Went to a therapist for a little while when I thought I was putting too much of a burden on my friends. I would never have dreamed of burdening people who weren't even my close friends, or trying to make life more difficult for the man in question - he's already doing a good enough job of making life difficult for himself. The bottom line is it doesn't do you any good to tear someone down whom you once loved - because the love you had for them is part of yourself. You need to recognize your own role in what happened, not hate yourself or the other person for it, and move on. Otherwise the cycle will just keep repeating itself. Using a political front to blame others for your personal problems won't substitute for love, healing or forgiveness. >I practice this philosophy in my writing. We need to >talk about our sexual relationships with men if we are ever going to find >peace and harmony in this world by stopping sexist men from getting into >positions of power. I don't have a problem with publicly discussing sexuality in general, and I don't have a problem with privately discussing private sexual matters (and "private" might include a group therapy situation or other specific group designed for the purpose). I do have a problem with anyone publicly discussing someone else's personal or sexual life (unless it involves rape or physical abuse, of course) whether that person is a public figure or not. If you HAVE to discuss your sexual problems with a particular individual (and I don't see why you would think anyone on a forum such as Ecobalance would care to hear such things), at least you could leave his name out. >You write that there are plenty of "feminist voices" on the Ecobalance >listserv. Well, I know one whom you have chopped off her head! And so >there must be others. Nope. You're the first and only one. I know of only one other person who's been kicked off Ecobalance and he was male, and was kicked off due to repeatedly advertising his products on the list. Stephan does not make these decisions lightly. Again, please think about your own conduct in the situation and how you can bring about your own "victimhood" if you do not speak responsibly. >Again, I didn't defame Albert. He defamed himself! Then let his actions speak for themselves. If there's a price to be paid he will pay it. >You people are allowing him to stay in power by not publishing my >essay exposing his lack of good character. He admitted to me that he was a >misogynist. What more do you want? Do you think a man who has admitted to >the CRIME of hating women should be one of the leaders of GEN? As I said, people have weaknesses and shortcomings whether they want them or not. The fact that he is aware of his weaknesses (if in fact your story is true which I have no way of knowing) says something positive about him, in my opinion. The fact that he may be unable to overcome his alleged weaknesses may be unfortunate but it not criminal. In any case, you have no way to prove that what you say is true. How would you like it if someone made allegations about you on the Internet, whether true or not, that you had NO WAY to defend? And would you trust someone else who just got on the Internet and made a bunch of personal allegations about another person that you had no way to check? That's why, if you wish to make public allegations about someone, the allegations should be limited to their PUBLIC work, so that others can at least have the option to verify what you say. I am not threatened by what you call Mr. Bates being in "power" - his supposed "power" is quite limited in any case. Why is that a threat to YOU if you are a strong woman? I feel I will succeed in my ventures, and my community, whether you and Albert Bates have a successful personal relationship or not - and whether Albert is a leader in the "movement" or not. Please don't give so much weight to someone's alleged "power" - it's really not that big a deal. If you really think it is, I'd suggest you move to someplace like Saudi Arabia and see what it's REALLY like to be a victim. >I really don't think you read my essay because it was written with a >great deal of love. It is love which brings about maturity and dignity. I agree with the last sentence but not the first. I did not read any love, maturity, or dignity in your post. Apparently your idea of love is to demand it, not to give it. You are responsible for your own emotional well-being. I feel the first rule of love is that love never can be demanded of someone. Another way to tell love from obsession or fear is whether you can forgive those you love for their shortcomings - even if their shortcomings have hurt you. I think you have a long way to go in that area, but it really will feel better if you work on it. Like I said, I've been there. >Your censorship of me will be exposed! Your refusing to stand for freedom >of speech is appalling! I have stood up for freedom of speech in many situations where I saw true victimization of another person occurring. Additionally there are plenty of other places I'm sure you can go to express your views. You will not be arrested, tortured or hanged for saying whatever you want to say, and if someone were threatening to do such a thing to you I would most certainly stand up for you or anyone else. However I don't consider this situation censorship or a threat to your freedom of speech, having seen the real thing. Try volunteering on an Indian reservation sometime. They have a lot more important things to say than whether or not they were successful in getting someone into the sack. Yet their views are not heard. Really - if you are hurting, try helping someone else who is really in trouble. It will help you get your mind off yourself, and be a lot more constructive than demanding that others participate in your pain. Lee ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Ecobalance List To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Lee Flier) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 13:14:23 -0500 (EST) Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Lee, you sound like one of the good-old-boys! Do you vote republican or democrat because you are certainly not a radical ecofeminist! The personal lives of public figures are of interested to the public. Don't you remember Anita Hill? What about Paula Jones? I want my leaders to be good to women, love women, not hate them! I'm not about to forgive Albert for being a misogynist until he stops being one and starts to learn what it means to be a feminist. He even told me that he believes some of the ideas of Rush Lim. such as some women being "feminazis." > Well then, again I disagree. I think this is a cop-out and a way for > people to avoid taking responsibility for their personal problems, by > making them public issues. I'm really, really sorry that your intelligence doesn't lead you to the conclusion that such issues as wife and child abuse, incest, sexism in relationships are not public issues. Everyone else in the world seems to think we should be talking about such issues, so why don't you? To state that such issues are not political is not understanding herstory. I suggest that you read _Beyond Power_ by Marilyn French. > In any case, you have no way to prove that what you say is true. How would > you like it if someone made allegations about you on the Internet, whether > true or not, that you had NO WAY to defend? Albert certainly has a way to defending himself since he is on the Ecobalance listserv. You people just didn't want to empower me because you support the GEN hierarchy. You are playing dirty politics by stopping my freedom of speech. > I did not read any love, maturity, or dignity in your post. If you could not see the virtues within my writing, you are a blind female living in denial. Someday soon I hope you begin to understand. may truth enter your soul, Doctress Neutopia
