This is one of the most antagonistic writings I have read on this list. Did
we hit a nerve Joe? This is not
close to an ecofeminist discussion. This is a new member expressing her
views without any malintent, and she does not deserve this treatment-- nor
does anyone-- it just won't heal any problems. If you disagree, think
before you write-- I should add, think about something other than twisting
people's words, exercising erudite vocabulary, and dropping us lists of
what you have read.
Please, let us start to express the delicate ecosystems we all hope to protect.
-c
>At Mon, 22 Feb 1999 18:34:12 EST, you wrote:
>>
>>In a message dated 2/22/1999 5:04:14 PM Eastern Standard Time,
>>[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>>
>><< Would it surprise you to hear that, as a white male southern college
>>student, I helped ramrod the initial funding of the Black Student Union there
>>past a reluctant student senate? would it surprise you to hear that I had a
>>two year relationship with a smart and proud black woman born not od either
>>subservience or recrimination, but of mutual care and respect? Well, be
>>surprised, and learn to drop your own preconceptions before tarring others
>>with them. >>
>>
>>I really would not be surprised nor take it as credential to educate me on
>>"black" issues. Is there something about me articulating my feelings on this
>>topic which makes you decide that such "credentials" should supercede my own
>>feelings and experiences about this issues in my own life?
>
>No, just pointing out that your own preconceived prejudices about me do
>not hold. But then, you're incapable by definition of having such
>prejudices, about others, aren't you (ironic sneer)? Only those "other"
>people can have them about you, and they all do! Should anyone ever doubt
>it, just ask you! Your experiences are your own, fine; keep them - no one
>is attempting to supercede them; but they do not supercede my experiences
>in my own life, either, nor will I allow you to impose yours over mine.
>
>You dated a black
>>woman and helped fund a black student union? So what? Is this supposed to
>>make
>>me decide that you must be right and I must be wrong, and now I should not
>>express my own opinion? Oh yes, I should bow to your "deeper"
>>understanding of
>>such issues, oh great philosopher of wisdom on such please teach me about
>>these issues.
>
>1)There's a difference between expression and bitter vindictive attack.
>2)you engaged in the second, not the first.
>3)I don't care if you're mauve or purple; you have a vicious and repulsive
>persona, and that's enough for me to dislike you individually, regarsless
>of your color, sex, height, weight, orientation, or any damn thing else.
>
>>A bit arrogant in your credential tossing aren't you? Let me explain
>>something
>>to you MY GRANDMOTHER has more credentials than you will EVER have on such
>>topics - for that matter so does my grandfather - neither poet, nor
>>philosopher, nor pagan is he. There are lots of people walking around,
>>without
>>your ideological pretensions who have more awareness on these issues in their
>>little fingers, than you can gather in your entire life - no matter how many
>>black women you date. People who never went to college, didn't read so well,
>>perhaps not at all, people who live simple lives, day to day, in poverty, in
>>comfort, in urban cities, in project complexes, in isolate colombian or
>>african villages, perhaps aborigine or maori (black) women dealing with such
>>issues on basic survival levels.
>
>Of course such a sensitive, subtle and sophisticated paragon of moral
>rectitude such as yourself would stoop to engaging in reverse snobbery,
>now would she?
>
>>
>>You also wrote " So you subscribe to the Eldridge Cleaver model,
>>propounded in
>>the essay "The Primeval Mitosis" (to be found in "Soul on Ice"), of black
>>females as Amazon Domestics, black males as Supermasculine Menials, white
>>males as Omnipotent Administrators, and white females as Superfeminine Dolls?
>>I didn't think so. But you cannot pick and choose which stereotypes you
>>discard and to which you cling; "
>>
>>You jumped too quickly to your own "platform" on that point; if I have not
>>mentioned Eldridge Cleaver, then perhaps you should decide that he is my
>>"model"?
>
>Did the words "I didn't think so" simply pass beneath your ideological
>radar screen? or did you purposefully, willfully and malevolently choose
>to ignore them in order to facilitate your diatribe?
>
> I also think that you overstepped your boundaries of understanding on
>>the connected implication that the woman I quote - a black brasilian woman
>>with substantial education, awareness and achievement of her own, has to be
>>subscribing to an elderidge cleaver model.
>
>I was speaking of your racist presumption that any southern white US-er
>must necessarily be a bigot. That seems to me to be quite congenial with,
>and even reflective of, Cleaver's stereotypical caricature model.
>
>If anything, since I quoted her,
>>the most you could say was that I was subscribing to HER model. Just because
>>you read a book you have decided to assign classifications of what black
>>women
>>can think, feel, comment on?
>
>Once again, I said, "I didn't think so," but you're more than beginning to
>convince me that prejudices like those are indeed true of you.
>
>>The quote that I presented, by the Brasilian woman in the book "Black Women
>>Speak Out on Identity, Race and Development" edited by Achola O. Pala, while
>>Chief of UNIFEM's Africa Section and published by UNIFEM (1995). It is a book
>>of black women from latin america, north america, the caribbean, europe and
>>Africa speaking about their issues - and surprise surprise, they don't even
>>have to mention Eldridge Cleaver
>>
>>You also wrote " And let me humbly suggest that, whatever a man's complexion,
>>you do yourself a grave disservice by continuing to cleave to him in spite of
>>individual brutality because of group membership " Let ME suggest (not
>>humbly
>>at all) that you are completely ignorant for deciding that at any point I
>>said
>>that I would cleave to a man despite his brutality. I also wonder where you
>>got the idea that a man's individual brutality was at issue here? I did not
>>mention anything about brutality. Believe it or not, there are black men who
>>are not brutal to whom one can "cleave " to on these issues. Believe it
>>or not
>>there are many black men all over the world who are as 'equal' minded on
>>these
>>feminist issues as you claim to be. Don't think you have some special
>>sensitivity or enlightenment that these men do not. Or is that your
>>particular
>>stereotype?
>
>I was responding to your spurning of NOW, and your as much as saying that
>you would prefer such brutalization to consorting with those whom you have
>here made abundantly clear you consider your enemy.
>
>>How do you equate partnernship between black men and women as cleaving to a
>>man despite his brutality? From what preconceived idea in YOUR head does this
>>come?
>
>Not my head. Yours. Via your previous post. Where you said you would
>prefer such a thing to joining in a women's rights effort with the "evil
>whitey."
>
>>But why don't you ponder this fact - I have a life, a history of a people and
>>a set of primary experiences of my own which I can directly draw upon to
>>decide what type of consciousness and awareness I have on these issues. Does
>>that make me a bigot to tell you that you cannot decide what I should
>>think or
>>say on these issues? No, I will not give you the power to make that decision
>>for me. No control you are to have.
>
>No, you are free to be a bigot without either help nor hindrance from me.
>
>>You have indeed illustrated my previous points - thanks.
>
>And, sadly, you have illustrated yourself.
>
>>Nicole
>>
>>
>>
>Joe E. Dees
>Poet, Pagan, Philosopher
>
>
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