Re: [ECOLOG-L] Fwd: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Visualizing functional diversity

[Nicolas PERU]

I wasn't saying that the interest of functional diversity is its  
usefulness in our understanding of human impacts on ecosystems. This is of  
course an important and very promising point but not the only one. The  
first one is our global understanding of ecosystems for themselves.
However I don't really understand what you means by talking about stars,  
volcanoes...they are part of ecosystems for me.
I'm sorry if the idea was not clear enough, but I agree with you that  
organisms are important in the realization of ecoystems functions and  
their identity can tell us many things on the processes acting in systems.  
Studying each organism can explain which strategies are efficient.
I think that adopting a functional approach rather than a more classical  
taxonomic approach  suppose having a more general vision of communities.  
Fluctuations in species abundances are a part of the question and  
researches on species traits aim at linking communities compositions  
(abundances, richness) to ecosystems functions. Ecosystems functions study  
is not deconnected from communities or populations study.

Nicolas
Le Mon, 01 Oct 2012 19:20:40 +0200, Martin Meiss <mme...@gmail.com> a  
écrit:

       It seems to me that saying ecosystem "functions" are the flow of
matter and energy is a coded way of saying that these are the most
important things for characterizing ecosystems.  As Neahga Leonard  
pointed
out, other systems do these things also, such as stars, volcanoes,  
oceans,
etc.  Ecosystems are special because they process matter and energy  
THROUGH
ORGANISMS.  Larry Slobodkin, who was on my thesis committee and S.U.N.Y.  
at
Stony Brook, used to refer to refer to this emphasis on matter and energy
flows, with little regard to actual organisms, as "odumology."  He found  
it
puzzling that an ecologist wouldn't be particularly concerned with  
whether
it was algae or aspens doing the carbon fixation, as long as the carbon  
was
being fixed.

       Nicolas and  others in this thread have stated that the importance
of this "functional diversity" approach is that it is useful for
understanding human interactions with ecosystems.  But how does it tell  
us
any more about our impact on the environment than measuring changes in
species abundance?  After all, for the most part we interact with  
organism
(well, except for breathing), not directly with potassium or carbon.  If  
we
learn that phosphorus in more mobile or more abundant in system A than in
system B, do we really care unless this difference is reflected in
organisms and populations?

       My questions probably reflect my naivete, but if so, perhaps they
are especially worthy of being addressed.

      Thank you.

Martin M. Meiss

2012/10/1 Nicolas PERU <nicolas.p...@univ-lyon1.fr>

Hi, Ted

        Your  work is interesting and provide a kind of synthesis on
functional
aspects of ecosystems. I think that we can all agree on your vision of
ecosystem for themselves and not for human interests. Nonetheless, you
have created another classification as our human mind need it. But, what
about things that would not fall into you categorization of Nature ? And
for sure, one day, somebody will find something outside this
classification. In this case, should we create another category ? I  
think
that any strict categorization inevitably leads to a need of a
multiplication fo categories. This is simply because Nature isn't cut  
into
strict part. Our study of biodiversity should have teach this point to
anybody. Even the very well known concept of species is not so clear.  
For
example, some fish "species" can produce some fertile hybrids (e.g.
roach-bream). Though, if these individuals from different species can
produce fertile descendant they are from the same species, aren't they  
?.

        So, I do not agree on the fact that we wouldn't need of fuzzy  
set
mathematics. Clearly, they don't muddy our perception of functional
diversity or even ecosystem functioning. We must understand that our  
mind
is limited in its capacity to perceive complex mechanisms and  
particularly
in very complex systems such as ecosystems. So, our challenge is to fit
our limited perceptions to the complexity of systems. I think that fuzzy
mathematics can help us to achieve this part of the problem. Fuzzy
mathematics can furnish flexible classifications for example. Hence, we
could better match our need to classify things and the continuity of
Nature's processes. Once we will have some means to fit our perceptions
and real mechanisms in action we will be able to design some practical
measures to evaluate ecosystems functions and functioning more  
precisely.
This could seem counterintuitive to have more precise things when we  
would
use fuzzy methods but this is a reality (for example, many methods in
medical imaging are using fuzzy mathematics and statistics to give very
precise images of human body).
        Maybe, we could say that we don't need to measure things and
ecosystems
processes would be no exception. But, I think that quantification is a
second need (after classification) for human being. And this not only
encompass a philosophical thought but also a very practical one. Indeed,
we can still go walking in a forest evaluating roughly what is happening
and be satisfied with this point of view. But, our understanding of
ecosystems functioning is not just a hobby. This have some important
consequences on our possibilities to match human activities and Nature's
preservation. Having good measures of ecosystem functioning would allow  
us
to know what are the crucial leverages in ecosystems we can rely on to
enhance ecosystems quality. This is particularly true in human-impacted
systems.


Nicolas

Le Sun, 30 Sep 2012 14:28:00 +0200, Ted Mosquin <tedmosq...@gmail.com> a
écrit:


 Hello all,

Here is the way I understand the meaning of 'functional diversity'.  No
endless statistics or fuzzy math required to muddy the explanation even
more.   The essential question is: what do organisms (individually and
collectively) actually do within their ecosystems to enable the world  
to
have become the way it is?  Let me count the ways.......(Table 3 in  
the URL
below).  We humans find ourselves living in a great big never-ending  
self
organizing buzz out there no matter where one goes on this planet. The  
buzz
has been going on since the beginning of time. One has to try to bear  
in
mind that we are processes, that is we are verbs and not nouns (except  
in
micro-moments in time). This is an alternative to fuzzy math and stats  
--
just go out there, take a deep breath and be the participant that you  
are.

http://www.ecospherics.net/**pages/MosqEcoFun5.html<http://www.ecospherics.net/pages/MosqEcoFun5.html>

Ted Mosquin


On 9/29/2012 9:30 AM, Nicolas PERU wrote:

I'm also a proponent of the application of fuzzy thinking and fuzzy  
set
mathematics to ecology. Clearly, binary thinking should be avoided in
ecology because very little (none ?) ecosytems parts obey black/white  
rules
like human beings like to apply on anything. Classifications are a
necessity for human being but not for natural elements. I think that  
if we
really want to evaluate ecosystem functioning we must recognize and  
take
into account in our mathematical measures the fuzziness of Nature.  
Binary
categorization (like some biological traits) should be applied at the  
end
of our calculus processes.

Nicolas


Le Sat, 29 Sep 2012 06:55:58 +0200, Wayne Tyson <landr...@cox.net> a
écrit:

 I tend to be even fuzzier-- Fuzzy Philosophy: A Foundation for
Interneted Ecology? This became my retirement talk at the SERCAL  
annual
meeting.

WT


----- Original Message -----
From: "Nicolas PERU" <nicolas.p...@univ-lyon1.fr>
To: <ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU>
Sent: Friday, September 28, 2012 12:57 AM
Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Visualizing functional diversity


Dear Wayne,

In my point of viewn, ecosystem functions directly refer to how  
energy
flows are shaped through ecosystem and how they allow ecosystem to
maintain by themselves (without human intervention this time). So,  
when
we
measure a functional diversity we try to evaluate the number of
different
ways a given energy flow can be realized. One aim is to link living
communities diversities to ecosystem functioning (energy flow) and so
define how organisms participate to the success of energy transfer.

This is a quite fuzzy and very general definition but I hope this  
helps.

Regards,


Nicolas


Le Fri, 28 Sep 2012 02:43:00 +0200, Wayne Tyson <landr...@cox.net> a
écrit:

 Thanks, Juan; I do appreciate the reference, but I am looking for a
simper answer than that--a scientifically-based explanation of what
ecosystem function means as an actual or theoretical feature of  
actual
ecosystems. I am definitely not interested in ". . . an  
anthropocentric
concept (as humans depend on ecosystems to survive) because is
described
as the capacity of the natural processes to provide an array of  
direct
or indirect services or benefits to humans." I would be delighted to
hear a discussion of benefits to humans some other time, however,  
but I
do not want this discussion to wander off the central, very basic
question now.

WT


  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Juan Alvez
  To: Wayne Tyson
  Cc: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU
  Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 10:25 AM
  Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Visualizing functional diversity


  Hi Wayne,

  You can best visualize ecosystem functions in a paper written 10
years
ago by De Groot and others,
  (Ref: de Groot, R.S., Wilson, M.A., Boumans, R.M.J., 2002. A  
typology
for the classification, description and valuation of ecosystem
functions, goods and services. Ecological Economics 41, 393-408.).
  It describes four main ecosystem functions (regulation [climate,
nutrient cycling, polination], habitat [refugia, nursery, etc.],
information [scientific info, recreation, cultural and aesthetic]  
and
production [food, genetic and medicinal resources, raw materials,  
etc.]
functions).
  It is certainly an anthropocentric concept (as humans depend on
ecosystems to survive) because is described as the capacity of the
natural processes to provide an array of direct or indirect  
services or
benefits to humans.

  Best,
  Juan


  On 9/26/2012 10:11 PM, Wayne Tyson wrote:

    Please describe function in ecosystems.

    WT

    ----- Original Message ----- From: "Katharine Miller"
<kmill...@alaska.edu>
    To: <ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU>
    Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2012 4:07 PM
    Subject: [ECOLOG-L] Visualizing functional diversity


    Hello,

    I have used Rao's quadratic entropy to evaluate functional
diversity
between
    a number of estuaries for which I also have a GIS database.  I
would
like to
    be able to visualize which sites are more functionally similar
across the
    region to evaluate patterns in dispersal, etc.

    I know it is possible to use the pairwise functional beta  
diversity
values
    as a distance matrix in a Mantel test or multivariate  
regression on
    distances matrices (MRM) when comparing functional diversity to,
for
    example, environmental data.  Would it also be appropriate to  
use
these
    values in a PAM or other clustering method to identify estuaries
that are
    more/less similar in functional diversity?

    This is likely to sound like a very naive question, but I have  
done
an
    extensive literature search and have not found where this has  
been
done
    before  - perhaps because it is a bad idea for other reasons?

    Any insights and/or references on this approach would be greatly
appreciated.

    Thank you


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--
Nicolas PERU, PhD
33-(0)4 72 43 28 94
06-88-15-23-10
CNRS, UMR 5023 - LEHNA
Université Claude Bernard - Lyon 1
43 Bld du 11 novembre 1918
Rdc Bât Forel
69622 VILLEURBANNE cedex FRANCE



--
Nicolas PERU, PhD
33-(0)4 72 43 28 94
06-88-15-23-10
CNRS, UMR 5023 - LEHNA
Université Claude Bernard - Lyon 1
43 Bld du 11 novembre 1918
Rdc Bât Forel
69622 VILLEURBANNE cedex FRANCE