Wayne, the case you cite is quite different from the matter of the single datum of a GRE score. It also sounds like the department and faculty member were arrogant, but I was not there .............. . Too bad for your friend. That clearly was not the place for her. But it sounds like it was the supposedly "inferior" program she had been in rather than GRE scores that mattered at the time when she originally entered the "flagship" school.
For what it is worth, I have known high falutin' programs that advised students without research experience as undergraduates (formerly almost no one had it, now it seems that many grad programs demand it as a prerequisite for entrance, even if not explicitly stated) that they would stand a better chance for admission if they got into a MS program first, including at a regional state university, and applied after completing a thesis there. I have known students for whom that approach worked, and consequently have advised others that it might be a good move for them. david mcneely ---- Wayne Tyson <landr...@cox.net> wrote: > McNeely and Ecolog: > > "I have never known one [adviser] who, faced with two applicants, opted for > the one with the higher GRE scores rather than the applicant whose prospects > for success in science were higher otherwise." --David McNeely > > Is this universally true, or does McNeely live in some academic paradise far > from the maddening crowd? > > I have zero data on this, but do have anecdotes of other cases where, for > example, a top student who had an M.S. from a (what do you call them, > "second tier?") state University that used to be a mere "College" wanted to > get her Ph.D. from the "top" state university, which required her to take > the M.S. program all over again before they would admit her to the Ph.D. > program. Not only that, the student was required to practically prostrate > herself at the feet of the department chair and major professor and be on > campus practically all the time. The student had several jobs teaching and > working at a museum (all relevant to her major, just to pay for her > education and eat a sumptuous meal of beans and weenies (or their equivalent > in luxury). She took it for a while, then left (forced out) and got her > Ph.D. at Oxford at huge additional expense. I knew this woman very well, > and, with the exception of my wife, I have never known a more tireless > scholar and worker. In addition, she will be paying off, with huge interest, > the student loan burden she incurred in the process, for the rest of her > life. > > I know the professor well enough to get the distinct impression that she has > a grand impression of herself. > > The students are finally demonstrating about extremely high tuition rates > and huge golden parachutes for retiring (some with as little as three years > at the university) officials. > > NOTE: No student or professor dare make this kind of comment on a Forum of > this kind and you will notice how circumspect I had to be, careful not to > name names. > > WT > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David L. McNeely" <mcnee...@cox.net> > To: <ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU> > Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 6:53 AM > Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Advice for 36 year old trying to get into M.S. > program > > > Each individual school has a score age after which it expects new results. > However, AFAIK one can take the exam as often as one wants to pay the money > and spend the time and effort. The most recent score is the one reported. > So, for a person whose scores are "high enough," retaking is foolish (may be > risky?). For a person with low scores, retaking may make sense. For a > person with "seasoned" undergraduate training, some brush-up might be > appropriate. > > I doubt retaking would make the difference in admission to a program unless > it is a matter of a cutoff score, and one is able to move the score above > that mark. Especially for a seasoned applicant, performance in the work > world would be more important to a prospective adviser (and having a > prospective adviser who wants you is the single most important factor in > admission to many programs). Many programs that have a cutoff score for the > GRE treat that as a "pass-fail" condition. If one makes the cutoff, then > other variables are considered, but the GRE is of no further consideration. > That may not be true for some programs, but I have never met a faculty > member who looked beyond pass-fail on the cutoff score. All I have met > looked at other variables. Another way of putting that is that I have known > situations where a prospective adviser said to an applicant, "I couldn't > take you because the Graduate School turned you down for GRE scores. If you > can get your GRE scores up to the Graduate School's cutoff, then we can try > again." I have never known one who, faced with two applicants, opted for > the one with the higher GRE scores rather than the applicant whose prospects > for success in science were higher otherwise. > > David McNeely > > ---- Kyle Finn <vexalun...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > Someone mentioned retaking the GRE in a previous comment to this question. > > SO at what point then are your GRE scores old enough to warrant retaking > > the test? > > > ________________________________ > From: Aaron T. Dossey <bugoc...@gmail.com> > To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 8:25 PM > Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Advice for 36 year old trying to get into M.S. > program > > If you do for some reason (which I cannot currently imagine) to go to > graduate school, here is some advice that will help you get the most out of > it without putting the future of your career at risk: 1) pick a very > HANDS-ON professor who spends a lot of time with his or her students and > postdocs (eg: they spend lots of time in the lab) in a successful lab with a > great reputation (lots of publications, with students and postdocs who have > left it and have successful careers currently who can attribute it to having > worked in that lab) and 2) insist that you ONLY will work on work that is > from the professor's own ideas - from their grants and based on their ideas. > Do not fall into the trap of working for a professor who expects you to come > up with your own projects. You are there to learn from them primarily, and > also to do parts of their research. If you already have a certain skillset > and can come up with your own research projects and successfully > > execute them, you do NOT need to be a student (at least in that lab). > > Pick a lab and a professor who have a lot to offer you in the form of > > TRAINING, connections and projects likely to be very fruitful. > > IF and when you have your own ideas you want to pursue, keep a log book of > those and save those for when you graduate and are on your own/independent. > Otherwise, it can get ugly. Many professors will, to put it bluntly, steal > credit and reward for your ideas and independent work. Might as well avoid > that pitfall and keep everyone happy (and keep you learning) by doing > whatever work originates from the professor - besides, it's their job to > drive the research and come up with the ideas. > > Basically, pick a prof and lab who seems to have YOUR CAREER INTERESTS at > heart and act like it. > > > On 1/30/2013 8:49 PM, Michael Garvin wrote: > > All depends on what you want, > > > > I went back at 35. Best decision I ever made. You can only go so far in > > the scientific world with a BS. Fact of life. It's a card that opens > > doors. But the most important thing is to enjoy what you are doing. If > > you can do that with a BS, do it. If not, go back. And I agree with > > previous posts. Find someone who is studying what you want and convince > > them you have a skill set to offer. Worked for me. > > > > M. > > On Jan 30, 2013, at 4:18 PM, "Aaron T. Dossey" <bugoc...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > >> My advice is: forget about graduate school. Find a way to get going with > >> your dreams, passions interests and desired work rather than seeking > >> "training" for it. I am 35 and the only thing that would take me back to > >> any kind of school would be if I wanted to go to law or medical school, > >> or some sort of professional training with a very specific and targeted > >> purpose in mind. I CERTAINLY wouldn't do something like a postdoc or > >> other similar type of temporary technician position. Life's just too > >> short. > >> > >> Consider positions with the government or even some sort of > >> entrepreneurial track (the latter is what I am doing now - or maybe work > >> for or start some sort of non-profit organization). Don't be afraid to > >> apply for grants to do the work you want to do, particularly private > >> organizations/foundations who care less about the unfortunate academic > >> pyramid shaped ivory tower hierarchy or titles. > >> > >> You might find some useful information in the articles posted on this > >> facebook page - email me if you would like me to send you a large list of > >> them all in a single email. > >> https://www.facebook.com/pages/National-Postdoc-Union/275402225908673 > >> > >> Good luck and feel free to email me directly if you would like any more > >> specific information, etc.! > >> ATD of ATB > >> > >> -- Aaron T. Dossey, Ph.D. > >> Biochemistry and Molecular Biology > >> Founder/Owner: All Things Bugs > >> Capitalizing on Low-Crawling Fruit from Insect-Based Innovation > >> http://allthingsbugs.com/about/people/ > >> http://www.facebook.com/Allthingsbugs > >> 1-352-281-3643 > >> > >> > >> > >> On 1/30/2013 4:31 PM, Sean wrote: > >>> Having graduated with an abysmal GPA from Colorado State University back > >>> in 2000 ( wildlife > >>> biology 2.7), I have found it very difficult getting into graduate > >>> school. Two winters ago I > >>> completed two graduate level classes at Oregon State: Forest Wildlife > >>> Management and a > >>> graduate Statistics course. Unfortunately just a B+ on the statistics > >>> but A on the wildlife. Of > >>> course I have a ton of field experience going back 14 years in lots of > >>> different taxonomic > >>> groups. Having just turned 36 I'm at my wits end trying to move > >>> forward. So I am soliciting > >>> advice. Would a non-thesis program like the field naturalist program > >>> at U. of Vermont be > >>> worthwhile? Frankly at this point I want to get into something > >>> permanent. I'll always engage > >>> my naturalists interest regardless of the employment I have. If I do > >>> something unfunded (such > >>> as non-thesis) I would really need to have good employment prospects > >>> coming out of it. > >>> Sage words of wisdom are welcome! I'm completely open to any and all > >>> advice. My ideal > >>> situation would be a thesis based M.S. on any of the many taxa I have > >>> experience with (birds, > >>> butterflies, amphibians, bats, plants etc). > >>> > >>> -Sean > >> > >> -- Aaron T. Dossey, Ph.D. > >> Biochemistry and Molecular Biology > >> Founder/Owner: All Things Bugs > >> Capitalizing on Low-Crawling Fruit from Insect-Based Innovation > >> http://allthingsbugs.com/about/people/ > >> http://www.facebook.com/Allthingsbugs > >> 1-352-281-3643 > > Michael Garvin, PhD > > Post-doctoral Fellow > > University of Alaska Fairbanks > > School of Fisheries and Ocean Sciences > > 17101 Point Lena Loop Road > > Juneau, AK 99801 > > 907-796-5455 > > mrgar...@alaska.edu > > > -- Aaron T. Dossey, Ph.D. > Biochemistry and Molecular Biology > Founder/Owner: All Things Bugs > Capitalizing on Low-Crawling Fruit from Insect-Based Innovation > http://allthingsbugs.com/about/people/ > http://www.facebook.com/Allthingsbugs > 1-352-281-3643 > > -- > David McNeely > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 10.0.1430 / Virus Database: 2639/5572 - Release Date: 01/31/13 > > -- David McNeely
