Well, lets examine the reasoning in this last post (for convenience -- parallels can be found in several posts in this thread). GREs don't work for some. Scrap them. So we establish the precedent that, if a measure does not always predict the ability of an applicant, it is worthless.
Lets apply our algorithm to other measures commonly used as factors in acceptance decisions. GPA? Grade inflation, out with it! Personal statements? Often written by committee of applicants friends and relatives. Out with it! Publications? Many undergraduates go to schools without undergraduate research opportunities and must use what time they have after going to class and studying working to pay the rent and food bills, so out with publications. Require an undergraduate degree? It is not impossible that an applicant, studying on his or her own, could educate his- or herself adequately enough to do well in graduate school (Recall famous scientists without terminal degrees), so out with degrees. In fact, this razor will cut away any attempt to evaluate applicants and we have reached the last post's ideal: total equality in education. All applicants simply assigned numbers and acceptances meted out with a random number table. I was a student from a small school with absolutely no reputation in science (deservedly so). After being accepted into grad school, I was told that it was my GRE scores that had been the decisive factor. Odd that. That evil company actually contributing to a poor student's (I was unemployed and very poor when the acceptance letter arrived) opportunity at grad school. Anomaly? Evidence for the utility of GREs? Just another anecdote? This thread has gotten to be just grousing. The original post asked an interesting question. What to do when indicators disagree? No one has posted a really good answer to that conundrum (guess that's what makes it a conundrum). Everyone seems to be willing to contribute an anecdote but we aren't politicians, we're scientists. Anyone got any data? Phil Ganter Biological Sciences Tennessee State University Nashville, TN ________________________________ From: Andrew Wright <marineb...@gmail.com> Reply-To: Andrew Wright <marineb...@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2014 12:06:32 -0500 To: <ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU> Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] GRE Scores In Picking a PhD Student. Do they Matter? Some people just don't test well, making the GREs totally useless as a gauge of talent across all. Furthermore, I have been told that their use is supported mainly by payments to the Universities from the company that runs the GREs, at the costs to the already poor students. They seem merely to be a commercial enterprise aimed at exploiting students, rather than a reliable indicator of ability. I feel they should be scrapped as another (albeit relatively minor) economic barrier to equality in education. -- Andrew Wright, Ph.D. "We don't have to save the world. The world is big enough to look after itself. What we have to be concerned about is whether or not the world we live in will be capable of sustaining us in it." Douglas Adams On 4 September 2014 07:55, Judith S. Weis <jw...@andromeda.rutgers.edu> wrote: > Yes, but.... > I have had a number of foreign students who could not write English very > well and I had to do a lot of re-writing on their dissertations - but the > research itself was excellent and we produced many publications. Just more > work on the major professor's part. > > > > > > I agree with this assessment - especially since some small liberal arts > > colleges engage in grade inflation - GPA's are not always reliable. I > > think there is considerable value to the GRE scores and having a minimum > > is useful. Above that, scores vary widely and are not always predictive > > of ultimate success. The most important thing that should be assessed - > > and the GREs do not do an adequate job here - is writing ability. Even > > mediocre students can complete a research project and muddle through the > > data analysis, but when it comes to writing, the grain and chafe fall > > into two distinct piles. The worse thing you can do for your career is > > to take on mediocre students with poor writing skills. If a project is > > never published then it will count for zero to your CV and career > > development. I suggest getting the student to send you a writing > > sample, or evaluate their writing skills based on the materials they > > have submitted. > > Mitch Cruzan > > > > > > On 9/3/2014 6:07 AM, Gary Grossman wrote: > >> I think that we all look at this issue from a personal perspective, > >> especially those that did well on standardized tests, and I've had this > >> same argument with colleagues for 30 years, including the exact same > >> situation where the student was up for a competitive assistantship with > >> a > >> mediocre GRE score and a senior-authored publication in an international > >> journal. You don't tell us how low the score was and I'd be concerned if > >> it > >> was a low quantitative score, because grad students need to have a good > >> quantitative background. But for researchers, publications are the sine > >> quo non and render a low GRE score moot, provided the student actually > >> earned the senior authorship (we don't have that info either and I view > >> senior authorship differently than junior authorship, especially if > >> there > >> are more than two authors). The one valid argument that the "keepers of > >> the gates" regarding the GRE is that it is the one evaluator that is > >> equivalent across all applications,i.e., as faculty we don't have the > >> time > >> to evaluate if an A at Furman University is the equivalent of an A at > >> Chapel Hill. But in the end I've found that the GRE isn't very > >> indicative > >> of performance by a researcher (I mean really, how could it be, it > >> contains > >> no information on motivation, persistence, intuition or many other > >> characteristics that great researchers have). In fact, I've seen some of > >> the biggest flops as graduate students come from students with very high > >> GRE scores --- they just happen to be good at taking standardized tests > >> but > >> not necessarily at research. My own story -- I took the GRE in 1975 and > >> earned somewhere between 1150 and 1190 can't remember exactly, but I do > >> remember it was a mediocre score. I have 110+ journal articles, > >> including > >> multiple papers in Am. Nat, Ecology, Ecol. Monogr, Oecologia, Freshwater > >> Biol. etc. The math is pretty easy to do <g>. cheers, g2 > >> > >> > >> On Tue, Sep 2, 2014 at 2:03 PM, Alex M. L <stenella.fronta...@yahoo.com > > > >> wrote: > >> > >>> Last weekend I got into a long discussion on the value of GRE score in > >>> a > >>> PhD > >>> student. As the 2015 applicants start, I open up the discussion to the > >>> community: > >>> > >>> I have a female student that has both a Masters (thesis) and > >>> publication > >>> with > >>> several years research experience. However, her GRE score are quite > >>> poor. > >>> Should I really pass up a seemingly great applicant because of low > >>> scores? > >>> > >>> If a student has a biology Masters or a publication... do GRE scores > >>> matter? > >>> Have we not moved past GRE scores when picking the next round of PhD > >>> researchers for our lab(s)? > >>> > >>> If you have a personal story of low scores and still attaining your PhD > >>> or > >>> accepting a similar student... I would love to hear from you! > >>> > >>> Cheers! > >>> Alex M.L > >>> > >> > >> > > > > -- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Mitch Cruzan > > Professor of Biology > > Portland State University > > Department of Biology, SRTC rm 246, PO Box 751 > > Portland, OR 97207 USA > > http://web.pdx.edu/~cruzan/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > ------ End of Forwarded Message
