Please stop arguing politics on the list NOW. I don't want to start actually kicking people or posts off the list, but I will if it doesn't stop. This is simply not the platform for it. Find a different platform where this topic are welcome.
--Guido On 7/18/07, Paul D. Fernhout <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Anna Ravenscroft wrote: > >> Still, I could essentially see Guido's point, because some conventional > >> school staff who otherwise like Python may face issues posting to a list > >> talking about the future of education (which may appear to threaten > >> their job), so perhaps ultimately a solution would be to have one list > >> for "python in mainstream education" and another list for "python for > >> alternative or future education". > > > > Or how about one list on "educational politics" and one on python in > > education. Oh wait - there ARE already lists on educational > > politics... how about those who want to discuss that, go to those > > lists and discuss it there?! And use this list to specifically discuss > > python in education? > > I think your analogy (and by extension Guido's strawman proposal) is > flawed, because a key aspect of *design* is to see how values and > priorities (which is the core of "politics") lead to new and interesting > structures for software and content and hardware. In a Python CP4E > context I see this as including any or all of: > * changes to Python itself (e.g. "edit and continue" support in the core > and in IDLE), or > * new libraries for Python (e.g. PataPata), or > * new application based on Python (e.g. constructivist educational > simulations, including perhaps, though he might have disagreed, the late > Arthur Siegel's PyGeo :-), or > http://pygeo.sourceforge.net/index.html > * new curricula or other smaller educational materials (e.g. the > Shuttleworth Foundation's steps in that direction), or > * even new hardware which is Python-powered (e.g. OLPC, or even Lego > Mindstorms NXT robotics, which I just got two of and was yesterday > looking up references to using Python to program). > > To talk about creating such software or hardware or content without a > sense of priorities and values would be analogous to going to an > architect, asking them to design you a custom house and, and then > saying, "well, you're an architect, just design us something, we are > busy people and have no time to talk about values or priorities". > Although I guess even there a clever architect would learn one thing > about such people's values and priorities. :-) > > For a personal example, to show these issues are not just talk, consider > the literally person-months I spent building the PataPata experiment > http://patapata.sourceforge.net/ > to bring some Squeak-like constructivist ideas more directly into a > Python-powered IDE, and which I discussed on this list. Maybe not a huge > success, but a big investment of my limited time in the free Python > realm and I learned a few things from it (including the importance of > naming objects if you wished to share them, a departure from the "Self" > prototype programming ideal using unnamed pointers to parent objects). > http://patapata.sourceforge.net/critique.html > Ultimately, PataPata was of very marginal interest here. Other people > can talk about how Squeak has ideas that might work in Python, but when > things got going, the talk was just talk. Ideally, from my point of > view, people here would have discussed how these priorities and values > of learned-centered technologies such as PataPata was a step towards > could be translated into even more Python-related software, stuff beyond > PataPata and even better. People could go beyond what I reference, and > go beyond my own self critique, and as experienced educators suggest > even better ideas for new technology related to Python (e.g. "the > students are always saying if only we had X Y or Z for Python they'd be > using it so much more for the things they want to do" -- like the > reasons a homeschooled kid chose "DarkBasic" instead of Python, as > mentioned on the Math Forum Kirby posts to). > http://mathforum.org/kb/message.jspa?messageID=5812048&tstart=0 > > But that doesn't happen here much, in large part I'd speculate since > most educators here are teachers, and the authoritarian context most > teachers work in is unfortunately very limiting both as to free time and > as to possible horizons, at least in the USA. Again, for example, > consider my relative who could be fired if she installed Python on her > classroom computer, and who would not have enough free time to go > through the bureaucratic hoops to get Python installed district wide, > let alone then have time to learn how to use it). > > That all to me is tremendously disappointing, especially as: > CP4E != CP4MainstreamSchools > in my thinking (even if mainstream schools are part of "Everyone"). > > It's no big surprise the US military (of all US institutions including > the Department of Education) initially funded CP4E, because, in the USA, > historically the military has had the most difficulties dealing with > lack of education among recruits, see for example: > http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/chapters/3b.htm > """Back in 1952 the Army quietly began hiring hundreds of psychologists > to find out how 600,000 high school graduates had successfully faked > illiteracy. Regna Wood sums up the episode this way: "After the > psychologists told the officers that the graduates weren't faking, > Defense Department administrators knew that something terrible had > happened in grade school reading instruction. And they knew it had > started in the thirties. Why they remained silent, no one knows. The > switch back to reading instruction that worked for everyone should have > been made then. But it wasn't."""" > > Doesn't that sound a bit like future echoes of "Why Johnny Can't Code"? > http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Why+Johnny+Can%27t+Code > http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2006/09/14/basic/index_np.html > http://news.com.com/Why+Johnny+cant+code/2010-1071_3-5596882.html > http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/09/14/0320238 > It is another example of how, ironically, the US military is perhaps the > only well supported large institution in the USA who, as with > illiteracy, needs to wrestle with the consequences of US educational > problems on a large scale. Gatto suggests, unlike the military, most of > the other US institutions actually grow in power the more dysfunctional > citizens are, so educational failure isn't a problem for them; > illiterate graduates are paradoxically a great thing for, say, a > department of education's budget -- justifying, in an unexamined way, > more money to do more of the same. > > People on this list (including Guido) sound disappointed in me for > talking educational politics, but as I reflect on it, I am disappointed > with people on this list for not helping more directly translate the > values and priorities I reference into even more Python-related options > for the future of most education. That future will IMHO emphasize > learner-centered and learner-customized on-demand activities which > empower the user to do amazing things either alone or as part of amazing > ad hoc groups like a typical open source or free software projects, > including Python. And that disappointment is even keener because I have > little doubt the educators on the edusig list are generally some of the > most progressive ones around (otherwise, people her would be on a Java > list or teaching about using Visual Basic to script Office). > > I can acknowledge that to the extent edusig is about being a teachers' > lounge where teachers compare notes about teaching Python to meet > state-defined objectives to pass standardized tests, such discussions > seem off-topic. But as I said before, if that is the concern, Java is > really the answer (in the USA, based on AP credit as someone else > mentioned; granted other countries will differ). Once we wander off that > path of standardization, then lots of issues relating to values and > priorities show up -- especially if, like me, you are interested in > making new things related to Python and education. > > --Paul Fernhout > _______________________________________________ > Edu-sig mailing list > [email protected] > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig > -- --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) _______________________________________________ Edu-sig mailing list [email protected] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
