I must retract my proposal for the subcycle rule. Before I get to that, though, I must mention that, because of a freqent keyboard lockup, I must keep my messages short, which means, to say the same amount, I must divide it into more shorter messages. That may seem more nuisance-like, but it's no more lines of writing. Also, I'll usually send them on different days, which should be better than 1 big message. There are just a few things I want to say, & they're mostly fairly brief. About the subcycle rule, I realized, after proposing it, that it causes a worse problem than it solves: If, in a 3-candidate election, all 3 are in a cycle, & candidate A is the least beaten, very lightly beaten, and then we add 2 more candidates similar to A, who form, with him, a 3-candidate subcycle as an element of the original main cycle, and if A doesn't win in that subcycle, and if the other 2 members of the subcycle (the new candidates) are very badly beaten be someone outside the subcycle, then the addition of those new candidates can deny A's election without themselves getting elected. And if the defeats within the subcycle are light compared to the othe defeats, then A would still win without the subcycle rule, whereas someone outside the subcycle would win with the subcycle rule. But, though I apologize for the subcycle rule, I very much stand by Smith//Condorcet. It's relatively simple, which is a must for public proposal in the U.S. Though Tideman's & Scultze's methods are indeed fine methods, and may be more fratricide-resistant than SC in some situations, isn't their fratricide-proofness limited to clone-sets? And aren't clone sets going to be extremely rare in public political elections? This mustn't be interpreted as rivalry or method-partisanship. As I said, Schultze's & Tideman's are excellent methods, and I'm interested in the pursuit of relatively ideal refinements even if they're more complicated. But which would you rather explain to Joe Sixpack on the streetcorner? I intend to reply to other objections to Smith//Condorcet in subsequent postings, but I'll only send one per day. Mike Ossipoff