Juho: On 15.11.2012, at 18.00, Michael Ossipoff wrote:
> If I ranked all of the candidates sincerely, the Democrat and the > Republican would be at the bottom of that ranking. Even if they're > winnable. > > So you can't say that not ranking unwinnable candidates allows you to > vote a short ranking. Juho repled: I said that not ranking unwinnable candidates does not cause very much harm. [endquote] Yes, and then I said that that doesn't mean that you don't need to vote a long ranking in TUC. My point was that Symmetrical ICT would save you a lot of distasteful long-ranking work, in a many-candidates election. Juho said: In your case I assume that your most preferred candidates can not win. [endquote] 1, The above discussion was about bottom-end considerations, not about favorites. 2. Don't worry about me. The problem that I spoke of, regarding favorite-burial, was about how the larger voting public will vote, given that they believe the Democrat-disinformation, and given TUC's optimal strategy, given that belief. 3. But ok, assume that, of the candidates I regard as acceptable, the only one who can win is one who isn't my favorite. In TUC or IRV, I'd rank that one winnable acceptable alone in 1st place. ...as would nearly all voters here. In ICT or Symmetrical ICT, I'd of course rank all of the acceptables in 1st place, as would everyone else. In Approval I'd approve all of the acceptables, as would everyone else. Juho said: Based on that you could leave them unranked [endquote] No need to leave your favorites unranked just because they can't win. Just rank them below the winnable acceptable(s). Juho said; , but you should rank at least one of the two winnable candidates. [endquote] Where did you get your assumption that there are and will be only two winnable candidates. From the mass-media, no doubt. :-) But certainly. If the method is TUC(margins) or IRV, and it's genuinely, fully, 0-info, then rank all the candidates in sincere order of preference. But real 0-info, at top-end, is unlikely. Without it, in any kind of Condorcet or IRV, you won't know what to do. That's a good argument for Approval and Score. Juho said: This (focus on who wins) is the way we usually measure the performance of election methods and study the recommended voting practices for the voters. [endquote] Yes. There's a good reason for that. Pragmatism, optimal voting based on predictive beliefs and acceptability beliefs, is known to be what governs people's voting here. That isn't in doubt. There could however be other reasons why it would make sense to rank your favourite candidates. You could rank them at top to help them (or their party) to win at the next election. Or you could give them this way some encouragement and thumbs up, and you could increase their chances of becoming elected in some other important position. In order to get good information on the true preferences of the electorate (for statistics and studies) it would make sense for all voters to always rank as many candidates as possible. [endquote] Voters here have made it abundantly clear that they're instrumental voters: They vote only to optimize their outcome in the current election, based on their predictive and acceptability beliefs. Yes, for finding the CW, of course it's desirable for people to rank all of the candidates. TUC(margins) is the method that meets the Condorcet Criterion and 0-info Sincerity. The problem is that there will be strong enough predictive feelings at top end so that people won't rank sincerely. That's why I say that the goal of sincere rankings and electing the CW must be abandoned. > Sure, there's a case for saying that people would enjoy indicating who > is worst. I just don't think that the Democrats and Republicans > deserve to be ranked at all. Not ranking them at all is better than > dignifying them with rank positions--even last and 2nd-to-last. That sounds like you are talking about implicit approval of all the ranked candidates. [endquote] I'll guess that "implicit approval" means ranking the same candidates whom I'd approve if it were an Approval election. Yes, you're right then. In Approval we don't approve unacceptables. In a rank method, I'd aesthetically prefer to not rank unacceptables. That's why I prefer Symmetrical ICT, among the rank methods. Not ranking all of the candidates would work against finding the CW. But, as described above, we won't find the CW anyway. Juho says: I prefer to see rankings as rankings, i.e. truncated vote A>B means A>B>C=D=E, not A>B>>>C=D=E [endquote] Ok, but when there are lots of candidates, most of them unacceptable, you're in for a lot of unnecessary ranking work. But if you like that, then it's no problem. That's why I offer ICT as well as Symmetrical ICT, for polling. (and also as preferable alternatives to TUC, for people who want rank-balloting in official public elections--though I recommend only Approval and Score for official public elections). Juho said: ..., if we talk about traditional Condorcet methods that usually treat truncations that way. But I guess you are talking about methods that intentionally want to use implicit approval. [endquote] I'm talking about a method, Symmetrical ICT, that makes it unnecessary to rank unacceptables. For people who want incentive to sincerely rank unacceptables, I offer ordinary ICT. I'm just saying that I feel that your goal of entirely sincere rankings, even at top-end, is unattainable, due to predictive information, genuine or perceived. Juho said: I believe many people would be happy to tell who is worst. But it is not a good idea to allow them to vote A>B>all_others>Y>Z since that could lead to unexpected and bad results. [endquote] Yes,it seems to me that there were problems with that, when it was discussed. I don't propose it. Juho said: Allowing them to rank A>B>C>D>Y>Z(>all_others) is better since then they have to explicitly indicate that C and D are better than Y and Z. [endquote] True. Mike Ossipoff ---- Election-Methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info