At this point, that might be the best course of action. They always say it's not about the framework, it's about whether or not you test. Maybe with more better informed developers, we will have a few tried and true methods in a few cycles that we can use as teaching tools.
I would love to read your take on TDD regardless. It might give us better direction. On Apr 29, 2013 3:48 PM, "Craig" <webe...@gmail.com> wrote: > Given the novelty of TDD to many of elementary's developers, I think it > might be useful to decouple TDD concepts from any particular framework. > With that in mind, I think we should consider teaching TDD fundamentals > with either no framework or one that has an insignificant learning curve. > I'm considering writing a blog post introducing TDD in this way. Thoughts? > On Apr 29, 2013 8:26 AM, "Jaap Broekhuizen" <jaap...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Interesting, I added your repo to the doc if you don't mind :) >> >> Met vriendelijke groet, >> >> Jaap Broekhuizen >> >> Aquamarijnstraat 273 >> 9743 PG Groningen >> >> jaap.broekhuizen.nu >> jaap...@gmail.com >> 06 - 39 81 36 97 >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 3:11 PM, Dane Henson <d...@elementaryos.org>wrote: >> >>> Thanks for setting up that document. I've already added a few things >>> and commented a bit. I have been toying with GTest (GLib.Test) a bit, but >>> haven't been substantially impressed by it yet. You can see my noodling >>> with it at >>> lp:~thegreatdane/+junk/agenda-tests<https://code.launchpad.net/~thegreatdane/+junk/agenda-tests>. >>> It's not much, but it might give someone an idea of how to set up cmake >>> for this sort of thing. That's what took me the longest and it's probably >>> still wrong, but it works :P. >>> >>> The code being tested is trivial, just something to play with based on >>> an idea I had for agenda, so don't be overly critical please. >>> >>> mkdir build; cd build >>> cmake .. >>> make >>> make test >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 3:26 AM, Jaap Broekhuizen <jaap...@gmail.com>wrote: >>> >>>> Pal, that looks very interesting, please do upload it to launchpad so >>>> we can have a closer look :) >>>> >>>> In te mean time, I have created a google document to have a central >>>> point of investigation for elementary automated testing. Feel free to add >>>> information to the doc whenever you can, but please keep it clean! :) You >>>> can find it here: >>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1cTsWpeT0h4FD81T-xs4bEWlALsO__j3rL1A7iB-SWz0/edit >>>> >>>> I haven't found any BDD frameworks yet, but I have found some >>>> interesting testing frameworks. >>>> >>>> I think I'll set up a testing branch for granite some day later this >>>> week, maybe test out the different frameworks so we can see what suits us >>>> best. If anyone else wants to start setting up a branch like that, you are >>>> of course free to do so ;) >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Jaap >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 3:08 AM, Pál Dorogi <pal.dor...@gmail.com>wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi, >>>>> >>>>> You can use cmake for unit test as it supports GLib's test. I use >>>>> MonoDevelop/Xamarin Studio for developing for huge projects coexists >>>>> /w cmake (as MD/XS does not support cmake). MD is for rapid >>>>> development but there is no internal Unit to support vala but C# >>>>> (Nunit) and some other languages. So, I run some cmake command before >>>>> and after MD build which runs cmake for cmake build and run test. For >>>>> example: >>>>> >>>>> before build: cmake .. in /build/ dir >>>>> after build in MD: run build/test/unit_test >>>>> >>>>> I added CMakeLists.txt into my MD project and I just need to sync >>>>> betwwen MD and that file when I add or remove a Vala source file >>>>> into/from the MD. >>>>> >>>>> I do not know how would it works /w launchpad as I do not know how its >>>>> packaging works /w cmake's unit test, but I think it should work. >>>>> You just need add some stanza in the project's root CMakeList.txt like >>>>> this, but it's not simpe as it's using some other features like >>>>> external projects and so on. >>>>> set (PROJECT_TEST tests) >>>>> >>>>> ... >>>>> enable_testing (true) >>>>> add_subdirectory (${PROJECT_TEST}) >>>>> >>>>> and add create some CMakeList.txt in the ./test dir >>>>> >>>>> ############################################################################### >>>>> # Sources >>>>> >>>>> ############################################################################### >>>>> set (UNIT_TESTS unit_tests) >>>>> >>>>> set (VALA_SOURCES >>>>> Model/Address.vala >>>>> Model/Person.vala >>>>> Model/Gender.vala >>>>> ValidatorTest.vala >>>>> TestMain.vala >>>>> ) >>>>> >>>>> set (PKG_DEPS gtk+-3.0 glib-2.0 gee-1.0) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ################################################################################ >>>>> # set (CMAKE_VERBOSE_MAKEFILE ON) >>>>> set (CMAKE_FIND_LIBRARY_SUFFIXES .so) >>>>> >>>>> # External Packages definitions. >>>>> set (EXTERN_PROJ dafunit) >>>>> set (EXTERN_SOURCE_DIR src) >>>>> >>>>> set (INTERN_PROJ dafvalidation) >>>>> set (INTERN_SOURCE_DIR ${PROJECT_SOURCE}) >>>>> >>>>> include (ExternalProject) >>>>> >>>>> ExternalProject_Add (${EXTERN_PROJ} >>>>> #PREFIX ../../${EXTERN_PROJ} >>>>> SOURCE_DIR ../../../${EXTERN_PROJ} >>>>> BINARY_DIR ${CMAKE_BINARY_DIR}/${EXTERN_PROJ}/build >>>>> INSTALL_DIR "" >>>>> UPDATE_COMMAND "" >>>>> PATCH_COMMAND "" >>>>> INSTALL_COMMAND "" >>>>> ) >>>>> >>>>> ExternalProject_Get_Property(${EXTERN_PROJ} BINARY_DIR) >>>>> include_directories (${BINARY_DIR}/${EXTERN_SOURCE_DIR}) >>>>> include_directories (${CMAKE_BINARY_DIR}/${INTERN_SOURCE_DIR}) >>>>> >>>>> # PkgConfig >>>>> find_package (PkgConfig) >>>>> find_package (GObjectIntrospection 0.9.12) >>>>> include (GObjectIntrospectionMacros) >>>>> >>>>> pkg_check_modules(DEPS REQUIRED ${PKG_DEPS}) >>>>> >>>>> set (CFLAGS ${DEPS_CFLAGS} ${DEPS_CFLAGS_OTHER}) >>>>> add_definitions (${CFLAGS}) >>>>> set (LIBS ${DEPS_LIBRARIES}) >>>>> set(LIB_PATHS ${DEPS_LIBRARY_DIRS}) >>>>> link_directories(${LIB_PATHS}) >>>>> >>>>> # Does not work set (ENV{PKG_CONFIG_PATH} ${EXTERNAL_BINARY_DIR}/src) >>>>> vala_precompile (VALA_C >>>>> ${VALA_SOURCES} >>>>> PACKAGES >>>>> ${PKG_DEPS} >>>>> posix >>>>> CUSTOM_VAPIS >>>>> ${CMAKE_BINARY_DIR}/${INTERN_SOURCE_DIR}/${INTERN_PROJ}.vapi >>>>> ${BINARY_DIR}/${EXTERN_SOURCE_DIR}/${EXTERN_PROJ}.vapi >>>>> OPTIONS >>>>> ) >>>>> >>>>> add_executable (${UNIT_TESTS} ${VALA_C}) >>>>> >>>>> # Does not work add_dependencies (unit_tests dafvalidation) >>>>> >>>>> target_link_libraries(${UNIT_TESTS} ${LIBS}) >>>>> target_link_libraries(${UNIT_TESTS} >>>>> >>>>> ${BINARY_DIR}/${EXTERN_SOURCE_DIR}/${CMAKE_FIND_LIBRARY_PREFIXES}${EXTERN_PROJ}${CMAKE_FIND_LIBRARY_SUFFIXES}) >>>>> target_link_libraries(${UNIT_TESTS} >>>>> >>>>> ${CMAKE_BINARY_DIR}/${INTERN_SOURCE_DIR}/${CMAKE_FIND_LIBRARY_PREFIXES}${INTERN_PROJ}${CMAKE_FIND_LIBRARY_SUFFIXES}) >>>>> add_test(${UNIT_TESTS} ${CMAKE_CURRENT_BINARY_DIR}/${UNIT_TESTS}) >>>>> ################################################### >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I am going to upload it to lp so, if you would like to have a look at >>>>> it just let me know and that case I will uploadid it on some day in >>>>> this week >>>>> >>>>> On 29 April 2013 07:19, Lochlan Bunn <lokl...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> > I have read alot about TTD, both in school and in persistent >>>>> articles. I've >>>>> > used it to develop a small gui based game, and I can say that I >>>>> liked the >>>>> > flow once I was used to it. I used JUnit & Eclipse, and that was all >>>>> that >>>>> > was needed the whole time. >>>>> > >>>>> > So when it comes to elementary dev, and vala/gtk/linux dev in >>>>> general, I'd >>>>> > be interested in reading/learning how to write unit test (suites) >>>>> for vala >>>>> > in respects to both CI, a la Launchpad, packaging, and moreso in an >>>>> IDE. >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > On 27 April 2013 07:48, Craig <webe...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >> >>>>> >> I agree wholeheartedly. And as Cassidy mentioned, we can use >>>>> scratch as >>>>> >> the incubation project. Would any devs be interested in >>>>> volunteering to >>>>> >> learn? Jaap, would you be interested in helping instruct? >>>>> >> >>>>> >> On Apr 26, 2013 3:25 PM, "Jaap Broekhuizen" <jaap...@gmail.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> I also think implementing Behavorial testing (applying BDD) is very >>>>> >>> relevant for us, as we are focussing a lot on user interface and >>>>> >>> interaction. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> So imo we should start on a project which we can use as a >>>>> playground for >>>>> >>> both unit an behavorial testing. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> Does anyone know of good vala bdd frameworks? >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> Jaap >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> Op 26 apr. 2013 22:21 schreef "Cassidy James" < >>>>> cass...@elementaryos.org> >>>>> >>> het volgende: >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> I don't think we need any convincing; everything I've heard from >>>>> the >>>>> >>>> devs is that we need to do this. It's just a matter of figuring >>>>> out a common >>>>> >>>> way of doing it. >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> Craig, a relatively small/new project that could use testing is >>>>> the new >>>>> >>>> Scratch or even the new work going on with Contractor. Both are >>>>> (from what I >>>>> >>>> understand) fresh codebases and now might be the time to work on >>>>> tests. I >>>>> >>>> recommend you hop into #elementary-dev and work with the devs on >>>>> getting >>>>> >>>> some tests worked out. >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> Regards, >>>>> >>>> Cassidy >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> On Apr 26, 2013 11:04 AM, "Pál Dorogi" <pal.dor...@gmail.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I dunno, I am a newbie here. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 26 April 2013 22:24, Craig <webe...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> > That's exactly what I'd like to know: how can I help. I can >>>>> try and >>>>> >>>>> > post >>>>> >>>>> > some tutorials, but I'd like to know who is interested and >>>>> what the >>>>> >>>>> > development community already knows. >>>>> >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> > On Apr 26, 2013 6:39 AM, "Pál Dorogi" <pal.dor...@gmail.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >> >>>>> >>>>> >> Hi Craig, >>>>> >>>>> >> >>>>> >>>>> >> I agree 100% /w you, but I think you should write some >>>>> tutorials and >>>>> >>>>> >> post them in your blog, if you have any. But in my opinion >>>>> that the >>>>> >>>>> >> human beings do not like "re-learn" things and the real OOP, >>>>> Design >>>>> >>>>> >> Patterns, SOLID, TDD etc. etc. are very steep and time for a >>>>> >>>>> >> non-real >>>>> >>>>> >> OOP/DP experienced Programmer/Developer. >>>>> >>>>> >> Also, the learning curve is very steep for these advanced >>>>> stuffs and >>>>> >>>>> >> needs long time to get there. But, nobody would not know how >>>>> good >>>>> >>>>> >> are >>>>> >>>>> >> they until haven't learnt and used those stuffs, would >>>>> they?.:) >>>>> >>>>> >> >>>>> >>>>> >> I did sine similar things, getting some new fresh things (TDD, >>>>> >>>>> >> MvvM/Presentation Model Design Pattern) to programming in Vala >>>>> >>>>> >> >>>>> >>>>> >> >>>>> >>>>> >> (( >>>>> http://ilapstech.blogspot.com/2013/04/advanced-programming-in-vala-dafs.html >>>>> ) >>>>> >>>>> >> but you should keep in mind that this kind of new things >>>>> (TDD, DP, >>>>> >>>>> >> SOLDI, MVVM etc. etc.) are like evolution (evolution in >>>>> Programming) >>>>> >>>>> >> which needs some time to get it succeeded (or failed).:) >>>>> >>>>> >> >>>>> >>>>> >> On 26 April 2013 20:36, Craig <webe...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >> > Hello everyone, >>>>> >>>>> >> > >>>>> >>>>> >> > I'm just leaving San Jose after having spent a week >>>>> listening to a >>>>> >>>>> >> > lot >>>>> >>>>> >> > of >>>>> >>>>> >> > smart people talk about, among other things, Test Driven >>>>> >>>>> >> > Development >>>>> >>>>> >> > (TDD). >>>>> >>>>> >> > I know I keep harping on this, but among the people who >>>>> write the >>>>> >>>>> >> > coolest, >>>>> >>>>> >> > best software (and other average software folks) TDD is >>>>> seen as >>>>> >>>>> >> > absolutely >>>>> >>>>> >> > critical. I can't point to anything other discipline in the >>>>> >>>>> >> > software >>>>> >>>>> >> > world >>>>> >>>>> >> > that is of comparable importance. And here's why: >>>>> >>>>> >> > >>>>> >>>>> >> > When we start writing software, we can manage it with a >>>>> couple of >>>>> >>>>> >> > developers, perhaps all the way up through the first >>>>> release; >>>>> >>>>> >> > however, >>>>> >>>>> >> > as we >>>>> >>>>> >> > add features, our software becomes more complex. It's hard >>>>> for us >>>>> >>>>> >> > to >>>>> >>>>> >> > remember what parts of our programs worked well before and >>>>> what >>>>> >>>>> >> > parts >>>>> >>>>> >> > are >>>>> >>>>> >> > broken. We often make changes to the underlying >>>>> architecture to >>>>> >>>>> >> > facilitate a >>>>> >>>>> >> > new feature, but we're not exactly sure if in doing so, we >>>>> broke >>>>> >>>>> >> > an >>>>> >>>>> >> > existing >>>>> >>>>> >> > feature. And we'll of course do a little ad hoc manual >>>>> testing to >>>>> >>>>> >> > verify >>>>> >>>>> >> > that things still work, but we're only going to really >>>>> check 5-10% >>>>> >>>>> >> > of >>>>> >>>>> >> > the >>>>> >>>>> >> > code that we most suspect would break. And even if we do >>>>> power >>>>> >>>>> >> > through, >>>>> >>>>> >> > we're only going to ever check 60-70% of the code, and it's >>>>> all a >>>>> >>>>> >> > very >>>>> >>>>> >> > slow, >>>>> >>>>> >> > unreliable process. Soon we spend all of our time fighting >>>>> bugs >>>>> >>>>> >> > and we >>>>> >>>>> >> > can >>>>> >>>>> >> > never get around to any interesting work. Does this pattern >>>>> sound >>>>> >>>>> >> > familiar? >>>>> >>>>> >> > >>>>> >>>>> >> > With TDD, you write a simple, small test for every piece of >>>>> >>>>> >> > interesting >>>>> >>>>> >> > code >>>>> >>>>> >> > you write, and every time you rebuild the project, all of >>>>> your old >>>>> >>>>> >> > tests >>>>> >>>>> >> > run. If you're writing good tests, you can be assured that >>>>> all of >>>>> >>>>> >> > your >>>>> >>>>> >> > code >>>>> >>>>> >> > works as you intend it to every single time you build, and >>>>> if >>>>> >>>>> >> > someone >>>>> >>>>> >> > merges >>>>> >>>>> >> > in a bug, it will be caught immediately (and the test that >>>>> fails >>>>> >>>>> >> > will >>>>> >>>>> >> > give >>>>> >>>>> >> > you some good information about what broke/where the bug is >>>>> >>>>> >> > hiding). >>>>> >>>>> >> > >>>>> >>>>> >> > Of course, it takes time to write tests; however, it's >>>>> still much >>>>> >>>>> >> > less >>>>> >>>>> >> > time >>>>> >>>>> >> > than you would spend debugging your code. Furthermore, when >>>>> you >>>>> >>>>> >> > write >>>>> >>>>> >> > tests >>>>> >>>>> >> > before you write your production code, you are forced to >>>>> design >>>>> >>>>> >> > your >>>>> >>>>> >> > code >>>>> >>>>> >> > modularly just to make it testable. Among software >>>>> professionals, >>>>> >>>>> >> > TDD is >>>>> >>>>> >> > seen as the fastest way to write software. I mean, Luna has >>>>> been >>>>> >>>>> >> > 90% >>>>> >>>>> >> > complete for 90% of its development cycle, and this is a >>>>> common >>>>> >>>>> >> > pattern >>>>> >>>>> >> > in >>>>> >>>>> >> > the software world. >>>>> >>>>> >> > >>>>> >>>>> >> > With all of this in mind, I'd like to know how I can help >>>>> you guys >>>>> >>>>> >> > start >>>>> >>>>> >> > practicing TDD? If this hasn't persuaded you, I'd >>>>> appreciate it if >>>>> >>>>> >> > you >>>>> >>>>> >> > would >>>>> >>>>> >> > respond and give your perspective so we can talk about it. >>>>> I'm >>>>> >>>>> >> > very >>>>> >>>>> >> > interested in seeing you guys continue to put out great >>>>> software, >>>>> >>>>> >> > but >>>>> >>>>> >> > I'm >>>>> >>>>> >> > concerned that as you write more code, you're going to be >>>>> creating >>>>> >>>>> >> > more >>>>> >>>>> >> > for >>>>> >>>>> >> > yourselves to maintain and the amount of time you spend >>>>> writing >>>>> >>>>> >> > new >>>>> >>>>> >> > software >>>>> >>>>> >> > is going to drop off exponentially as the complexity (as >>>>> >>>>> >> > complexity >>>>> >>>>> >> > produces >>>>> >>>>> >> > bugs) increases. >>>>> >>>>> >> > >>>>> >>>>> >> > Please let me know if/how I can help you. >>>>> >>>>> >> > >>>>> >>>>> >> > Craig >>>>> >>>>> >> > >>>>> >>>>> >> > -- >>>>> >>>>> >> > Mailing list: >>>>> https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community >>>>> >>>>> >> > Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net >>>>> >>>>> >> > Unsubscribe : >>>>> https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community >>>>> >>>>> >> > More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp >>>>> >>>>> >> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community >>>>> >>>>> Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net >>>>> >>>>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community >>>>> >>>>> More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> -- >>>>> >>>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community >>>>> >>>> Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net >>>>> >>>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community >>>>> >>>> More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> -- >>>>> >>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community >>>>> >>> Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net >>>>> >>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community >>>>> >>> More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp >>>>> >>> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> -- >>>>> >> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community >>>>> >> Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net >>>>> >> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community >>>>> >> More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp >>>>> >> >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > -- >>>>> > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community >>>>> > Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net >>>>> > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community >>>>> > More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community >>>>> Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net >>>>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community >>>>> More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community >>>> Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net >>>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community >>>> More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> -- >> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community >> Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net >> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community >> More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp >> >>
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