There are no U.S. national differences regarding the size of the double insulation symbol in UL 60065, UL 60950-1 or UL 62368-1.
In many cases, Underwriters Laboratories (UL) is more flexible about the size of marking that required by other standards agencies. For example, UL has historically not placed a minimum size on the UL Listing mark. Their guidelines even state when the mark is reduced below a specified size, the "registered trademark" symbol is to be removed as it would be too small to be legible. That being said, their label review process reserves the right to reject marking as being too small to be reasonably legible. It is possible that another country may have a national difference regarding the symbol, but I am unaware of it and I personally have not had marking rejected on one of my products due to the double insulation symbol being too small. Ted Eckert Microsoft Corporation The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my employer, National Certification Bodies or the Fraternal Order of Class II Product Labeling Specialists. -----Original Message----- From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com] Sent: Friday, June 2, 2017 8:02 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Min size of double insulation symbol relaxed I believe UL adds 'Special National Conditions' or something to the IEC standards it adopts, just as Europe adds 'Common Modifications'. With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.jmwa.demon.co.uk&data=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C97c9a2ff182e4e7a8bec08d4a9c85d3c%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636320125403340378&sdata=WEyHQjkkjIQQHBFpJqMcpDoj3%2BILX4R9lKDMSB%2BjQ4k%3D&reserved=0 J M Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England Sylvae in aeternum manent. -----Original Message----- From: Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com] Sent: 02 June 2017 15:17 To: John Woodgate <jmw1...@btinternet.com>; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Min size of double insulation symbol relaxed Hi John, No, I did not. As far as I remember, UL adopts/harmonises IEC standard in last 10-15 years. This requirement appears as early as 20 years ago. However, I just checked UL 60065 and 60950-1 without the requirement. Thanks and regards, Scott On 2/6/2017, 3:11 AM, "John Woodgate" <jmw1...@btinternet.com> wrote: Did you look at the UL versions of these standards as well as the IEC versions? With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.jmwa.demon.co.uk&data=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C97c9a2ff182e4e7a8bec08d4a9c85d3c%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636320125403340378&sdata=WEyHQjkkjIQQHBFpJqMcpDoj3%2BILX4R9lKDMSB%2BjQ4k%3D&reserved=0 J M Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England Sylvae in aeternum manent. -----Original Message----- From: Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com] Sent: 01 June 2017 17:19 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Min size of double insulation symbol relaxed Hi Peter, Thanks for your advice! I read the previous 60056/60950-1/60335-1 standards back to 199x and still could not trace the following requirements. The dimensions of the symbol for Class II construction shall be such that the length of the sides of the outer square is about twice the length of the sides of the inner square. The length of the sides of the outer square shall not be less than 5mm, unless the largest dimension of the appliance does not exceed 15cm, in which case the dimensions of the symbol may be reduced, but the length of the sides of the outer square shall not be less than 3mm. I am unable to recall the originate of this requirement and suspect if it comes from the safety standards. For the time being, I have just to refer to the latest requirements in safety standards without above requirement. Regards, Scott On 1/6/2017, 12:38 AM, "Peter Tarver" <ptar...@enphaseenergy.com> wrote: Scott - The CE mark size is mentioned in RED, but not the double insulation symbol. The LVD implicitly defers to the CE Marking Directive for size. IEC 60417 doesn't have a symbol size for Symbol 5172. You might need to refer to the standard used for the product bearing the Symbol 5172 for the answer. Peter Tarver > -----Original Message----- > From: Scott Xe > Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2017 08:55 > > Is the minimum size of 5 mm relaxed to the legible reading > in LVD and RED? Where and when does it introduce? The information contained in this message may be privileged and confidential. It is intended to be read only by the individual or entity to whom it is addressed or by their designee. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are on notice that any distribution of this message, in any form, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please immediately notify the sender and delete or destroy any copy of this message! - ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <emc-p...@ieee.org> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2Femc-pstc.html&data=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C97c9a2ff182e4e7a8bec08d4a9c85d3c%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636320125403340378&sdata=7GW5UCLQIonggQf8OGcy%2BYqXOYlVcQxgYHQcjVulRLQ%3D&reserved=0 Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fproduct-compliance.oc.ieee.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C97c9a2ff182e4e7a8bec08d4a9c85d3c%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636320125403340378&sdata=xGcYOPBJvId3Rw0d8cCIFW8QKwCO%2B1jTE2UMUSjXdSY%3D&reserved=0 can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C97c9a2ff182e4e7a8bec08d4a9c85d3c%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636320125403340378&sdata=NGvP1yaemPAo%2FCPnmDrBYbmhZbAGJj7jupdVTJQ%2BpOI%3D&reserved=0 Instructions: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2Flist.html&data=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C97c9a2ff182e4e7a8bec08d4a9c85d3c%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636320125403340378&sdata=N62AtqtKYkhDjGlbSIuIL476ekizeald%2FmlqIJjhRJw%3D&reserved=0 (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2Flistrules.html&data=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C97c9a2ff182e4e7a8bec08d4a9c85d3c%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636320125403340378&sdata=V0VlyqWu8tqllFEFQBfv%2FsGmDdi09mUhvVX9X76gEIE%3D&reserved=0 For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org> Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: <j.bac...@ieee.org> David Heald: <dhe...@gmail.com> - ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <emc-p...@ieee.org> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2Femc-pstc.html&data=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C97c9a2ff182e4e7a8bec08d4a9c85d3c%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636320125403340378&sdata=7GW5UCLQIonggQf8OGcy%2BYqXOYlVcQxgYHQcjVulRLQ%3D&reserved=0 Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fproduct-compliance.oc.ieee.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C97c9a2ff182e4e7a8bec08d4a9c85d3c%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636320125403340378&sdata=xGcYOPBJvId3Rw0d8cCIFW8QKwCO%2B1jTE2UMUSjXdSY%3D&reserved=0 can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C97c9a2ff182e4e7a8bec08d4a9c85d3c%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636320125403340378&sdata=NGvP1yaemPAo%2FCPnmDrBYbmhZbAGJj7jupdVTJQ%2BpOI%3D&reserved=0 Instructions: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2Flist.html&data=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C97c9a2ff182e4e7a8bec08d4a9c85d3c%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636320125403340378&sdata=N62AtqtKYkhDjGlbSIuIL476ekizeald%2FmlqIJjhRJw%3D&reserved=0 (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2Flistrules.html&data=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C97c9a2ff182e4e7a8bec08d4a9c85d3c%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636320125403340378&sdata=V0VlyqWu8tqllFEFQBfv%2FsGmDdi09mUhvVX9X76gEIE%3D&reserved=0 For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org> Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: <j.bac...@ieee.org> David Heald: <dhe...@gmail.com> - ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <emc-p...@ieee.org> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2Femc-pstc.html&data=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C97c9a2ff182e4e7a8bec08d4a9c85d3c%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636320125403340378&sdata=7GW5UCLQIonggQf8OGcy%2BYqXOYlVcQxgYHQcjVulRLQ%3D&reserved=0 Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fproduct-compliance.oc.ieee.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C97c9a2ff182e4e7a8bec08d4a9c85d3c%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636320125403340378&sdata=xGcYOPBJvId3Rw0d8cCIFW8QKwCO%2B1jTE2UMUSjXdSY%3D&reserved=0 can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C97c9a2ff182e4e7a8bec08d4a9c85d3c%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636320125403340378&sdata=NGvP1yaemPAo%2FCPnmDrBYbmhZbAGJj7jupdVTJQ%2BpOI%3D&reserved=0 Instructions: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2Flist.html&data=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C97c9a2ff182e4e7a8bec08d4a9c85d3c%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636320125403340378&sdata=N62AtqtKYkhDjGlbSIuIL476ekizeald%2FmlqIJjhRJw%3D&reserved=0 (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2Flistrules.html&data=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C97c9a2ff182e4e7a8bec08d4a9c85d3c%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636320125403340378&sdata=V0VlyqWu8tqllFEFQBfv%2FsGmDdi09mUhvVX9X76gEIE%3D&reserved=0 For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org> Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: <j.bac...@ieee.org> David Heald: <dhe...@gmail.com> - ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <emc-p...@ieee.org> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org> Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: <j.bac...@ieee.org> David Heald: <dhe...@gmail.com>
