Back to Brian's mail about the basis for the 1500A interrupt rating, my assumption has been that it stems from some other common requirement or application that made this the next step up. Presumably it isn't economical to have a bunch of different common interrupt ratings.
Cheers, Gary Tornquist - My opinion only, not that of my employer. -----Original Message----- From: Pete Perkins [mailto:00000061f3f32d0c-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org] Sent: Monday, November 20, 2017 12:09 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Regulatory requirements for MOVs placed line-to-ground on AC mains ports? Ralph, et al, My long term understanding is that the fault current is a curve. High values initially draining to lower values as the stored charge in the adjacent wiring is pulled thru the short circuit and maintained by the supply impedance at the longer term value. According to what UL has told us for years, the peak SS current from a usual commercial or residential 120V outlet on a 15A or 20A circuit is 7000 A peak (probably for microseconds). I have seen SS tests done on equipment used on 600V industrial circuits where a 10,000 A clearing capacity was tested. The failure in misapplication results in ionization of the gas in the fuse along with the metallic residue from the interrupted fuse which continues to conduct until some other component open (hopefully before the conflagration is fully underway). Europeans claim a lower SS current from their systems (higher impedance, it seems); so the fuses used there have lower clearing capacity. :>) br, Pete Peter E Perkins, PE Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant PO Box 23427 Tigard, ORe 97281-3427 503/452-1201 p.perk...@ieee.org -----Original Message----- From: Ralph McDiarmid [mailto:ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com] Sent: Monday, November 20, 2017 10:42 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Regulatory requirements for MOVs placed line-to-ground on AC mains ports? According to IEC/TR 60725, 90% of customers in the UK and in Australia, will have electricity supply impedance less than or equal to 0.25 + j0.23 ohms. That according to a survey or residential service for 230V/50Hz That tells me that short circuit current would be at least 680A, but could be twice that value or higher for some customers Ralph McDiarmid Product Compliance Engineering Solar Business Schneider Electric -----Original Message----- From: Brian O'Connell [mailto:oconne...@tamuracorp.com] Sent: Monday, November 20, 2017 10:26 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Regulatory requirements for MOVs placed line-to-ground on AC mains ports? Mr. Woodgate, Is there a recently published spec for a 'typical' 230V mains impedance for the EU? Have also noted that the source Zs in 61000-4-5 for the instrument seem rather high. So what is the basis for 1500A interrupt rating? For U.S., even for an artificially low-Z electronic AC source, seldom see fault currents exceed 200A peak for 120V mains. Conversely, have noted that at over 100A fault current, any fuse not rated for the 'high' interrupt value will probably explode. So either our ratings are suspect, or perhaps the physics behind the standards are not complete? Brian From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk] Sent: Friday, November 17, 2017 11:16 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Regulatory requirements for MOVs placed line-to-ground on AC mains ports? I'm afraid that's not so. The short-circuit current of a 20 A circuit is normally at least 500 A, maybe 1500 A. John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only J M Woodgate and Associates https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.woodjohn.uk&data=02%7C01%7Cgarytor%40microsoft.com%7C09a7e403f6374bbed33608d53053630f%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636468057063352253&sdata=3%2B1WpXmwsYl6CRIk0e3sHfCLxDEr%2B3Aw6podzTpJWK0%3D&reserved=0 Rayleigh, Essex UK On 2017-11-18 03:49, Joe Randolph wrote: Yes, that is a very good point. I may have misinterpreted what the term “adequate breaking capacity” means. If all it means is that the fuse must be able to safely break the short-circuit current, then a 20 Amp, 250 VRMS fuse would be fine for use on a 20 Amp, 240 VRMS circuit. Of course, this would not provide much protection against overheating of the MOV unless the MOV failed at an effective resistance of less than 12 ohms. Anything higher than that would just keep producing heat. Joe Randolph Telecom Design Consultant Randolph Telecom, Inc. 781-721-2848 (USA) j...@randolph-telecom.com https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.randolph-telecom.com&data=02%7C01%7Cgarytor%40microsoft.com%7C09a7e403f6374bbed33608d53053630f%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636468057063352253&sdata=id9AHN8CuHSd%2F2%2Btqb19N88h8sGFm8ZAGpLfkU4ZVDg%3D&reserved=0 From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk] Sent: Friday, November 17, 2017 4:47 PM To: Joe Randolph <j...@randolph-telecom.com>; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Regulatory requirements for MOVs placed line-to-ground on AC mains ports? I agree with this step-wise route to failure. But I wonder about the intended meaning of 'adequate breaking capacity'. In the context of the fuse standard IEC 60027 (multi-part), this means that the fuse must not shatter or arc-over with the largest fault current that can be applied to it. It's all about the fuse, not about what it is supposed to protect. I believe TVSs (BIG diodes with integral heat sink) are much nicer devices to use than MOVs. They don't suffer from energetic disruption. John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only J M Woodgate and Associates https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.woodjohn.uk&data=02%7C01%7Cgarytor%40microsoft.com%7C09a7e403f6374bbed33608d53053630f%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636468057063352253&sdata=3%2B1WpXmwsYl6CRIk0e3sHfCLxDEr%2B3Aw6podzTpJWK0%3D&reserved=0 Rayleigh, Essex UK On 2017-11-17 21:39, Joe Randolph wrote: I have not performed any actual testing, but I believe that the basic problem is that MOV leakage current increases slightly each time the MOV experiences a big surge. So, in the early stages of this mechanism, the leakage current will increase step-wise each time the MOV experiences a big surge. In practice, these successive "big surges" could be spaced months or years apart. Each successive surge will increase the leakage current, but if the current remains well below the level that causes significant self-heating of the MOV, the situation will remain stable. After some number of big surges (which could take years to accumulate), the leakage current will have increased enough that the self-heating process itself leads to higher leakage current. This sets up a positive feedback loop that causes the MOV to go into thermal runaway and self-destruct. I'm not sure the thermal runaway could be described as an "avalanche," since the process might take considerable time to destroy the MOV, but the general direction of the failure gets establishes as soon as the positive feedback mechanism gets started. If it could be shown that any dissipation level less than 240 W cannot cause ignition of nearby materials, then a 1A fuse would appear to provide the "adequate breaking capacity" called for in 60950-1. Joe Randolph Telecom Design Consultant Randolph Telecom, Inc. 781-721-2848 (USA) j...@randolph-telecom.com https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.randolph-telecom.com&data=02%7C01%7Cgarytor%40microsoft.com%7C09a7e403f6374bbed33608d53053630f%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636468057063352253&sdata=id9AHN8CuHSd%2F2%2Btqb19N88h8sGFm8ZAGpLfkU4ZVDg%3D&reserved=0 -----Original Message----- From: Ralph McDiarmid [mailto:ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com] Sent: Friday, November 17, 2017 1:05 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Regulatory requirements for MOVs placed line-to-ground on AC mains ports? I wonder if a 1A fuse would protect against MOV flameout just as well as a 100mA, if these MOV fail as an avalanche. (get hotter = more leakage) I've seen some standards use 240VA (assume 240W) as a power limit for protection against fire. However, I wonder if a MOV could burn nicely at say 0.5A without further increase in current. Ralph McDiarmid Product Compliance Engineering Solar Business Schneider Electric -----Original Message----- From: Joe Randolph [mailto:j...@randolph-telecom.com] Sent: Monday, November 13, 2017 7:56 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Regulatory requirements for MOVs placed line-to-ground on AC mains ports? Hi Mick: Annex Q in 60950-1 shows that the authors were concerned about increased leakage current in MOVs that are subjected to multiple surges. Perhaps the authors assumed that if the equipment passed the earth leakage test with new MOVs, allowing the MOVs to deteriorate by up to 10% after the Annex Q surges would be acceptable. Unfortunately, Annex Q does not help to define the term "adequate breaking capacity" as called for in clause 1.5.9.2 for fuses required in series with the MOV. As Rich Nute has pointed out, a fuse that will open when the leakage current exceeds 0.5 mA cannot be expected to survive a 3 kA surge. So, the purpose of the fuse does not appear to be directed at the 0.5 mA leakage current requirement. Rather, I think the authors were trying to use the fuse to protect against the three conditions itemized in clause 1.5.9.2: * Temporary overvoltages * Thermal overload due to increased leakage current * Burning and bursting of the MOV in the event of a short-circuit fault The problem with this is that it takes very little leakage current to cause thermal overload of the MOV. At 230 VRMS, and RMS leakage current of 100 mA would dissipate 23 Watts in the MOV. A fuse that reliably opens at 100 mA will not survive a 3 kA surge. In general, MOVs subjected to thermal overload allow more leakage current as they heat up. With a fixed voltage supply (such as 230 VRMS), this creates a positive-feedback condition of ever-increasing power dissipation that eventually drives the MOV to destruction. So, perhaps the requirement for "adequate breaking capacity" was directed at trying to prevent burning and busting of the MOV, rather than excessive earth leakage current. So far, it appears that the term "adequate breaking capacity" is not actually defined in 60950-1. I suppose that the authors intended "adequate breaking capacity" to mean "adequate to prevent burning and bursting" of the MOV. I'm not sure that this is even possible if that same fuse has to survive a 3 kA combination wave surge. However, it is possible that 60950-1 does not actually require the circuit to survive such surges. Perhaps all that 60950-1 requires is that the MOV itself tolerates such surges with no more than 10% degradation. It would then be left to the product designer to select a suitable fuse. Between the conflicting goals of preventing nuisance tripping of the fuse and preventing overheating of the MOV, I'm not sure that an ordinary fuse can be found that meets both goals. This may be why 62368-1 seems to be steering us to using a thermal fuse that senses overheating of the MOV, rather than a fuse that responds only to current. Joe Randolph Telecom Design Consultant Randolph Telecom, Inc. 781-721-2848 (USA) j...@randolph-telecom.com https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.randolph-telecom.com&data=02%7C01%7Cgarytor%40microsoft.com%7C09a7e403f6374bbed33608d53053630f%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636468057063352253&sdata=id9AHN8CuHSd%2F2%2Btqb19N88h8sGFm8ZAGpLfkU4ZVDg%3D&reserved=0 -----Original Message----- From: Mick Maytum [mailto:mjmay...@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2017 3:55 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Regulatory requirements for MOVs placed line-to-ground on AC mains ports? For my sins I am currently editing a 40 page MOV application guide. As the guide was written by a Chinese expert I have the additional task of translating the Chinlish to English. However this forces understanding and I found the document contains many gems I did not appreciate. On degradation three areas are mentioned: 1. Varistor voltage at 1mA has decreased by more than 10 % of the initial value. 2. Surge limiting voltage at a specified impulse current has increased by more than 10 % of the initial value. 3. Leakage current or watt-loss shows a steady increase. Then the comment is made that generally if the Varistor voltage has decreased by 10 %, the limiting voltage will have only increased by 3 %. Thus the Annex Q limiting voltage change limit of 10 % would be better replaced by a Varistor voltage change. On fuses I did some calculations and found an anti-surge fuse in the 4 A region was required to withstand the Annex Q MOV requirement of a 3 kA 8/20 surge. It should be remembered that most fuses will not interrupt an 8/20 surge as the fuse link plasma carries on conducing the 8/20 impulse current. Ted makes the excellent point that in the equipment additional series impedances will exist that reduce the peak the peak surge current from an 1.2/50-8/20 generator. Tests are now appearing for thermally protected MOVs, which disconnect the MOV in the event of exceeding a pre-set body temperature limit. Thermal disconnect, rather than current disconnect, gets to the heart of the matter. But, as far as I'm aware, none of these tests apply a surge voltage to check for open thermal switch arc over. 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