Ralph --
Pete Perkins is the expert.
0.5 mA is the "reaction/startle" threshold.
6 mA gets you into where some of the population experiences muscle contraction
("letgo-immobilization").
I don't know the risk trade-offs various committees made to get from 5 mA to
15, 25, or 30.
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ralph McDiarmid" <ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com>
To: "EMC-PSTC" <EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2018 12:02:37 PM
Subject: Re: [PSES] GFCI vs GFPE discussion
“current limit of 30mA protects 95 % of the population”
They didn’t want to try for 100% ? I'm no expert and I don't know if we have
one on this forum for this complex topic, but ask how can one limit be 5X the
other and still afford the same level of protection? Perhaps not intended to,
as in shock versus electrocution protection.
Is 6mA enough for strong muscle reaction or a startle reaction sufficient to
cause someone to loose balance for instance?
Still, some protection better than none at all.
Ralph McDiarmid
Product Compliance Specialist
Solar Business
Schneider Electric
From: Pete Perkins [mailto:00000061f3f32d0c-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org]
Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2018 10:06 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] GFCI vs GFPE discussion
Brian, et al
Low current protection devices are intended to protect people.
The long term letgo-immobilization current of 5mA covers the full population
and opens any circuit which exceeds this level (ok, the UL limit for GFCIs is
4mA to 6 mA), But you get the idea.
The long term Ventricular Fibrillation current limit of 30mA protects 95 % of
the population on the face of the earth. The Euro systems use of RCDs require
this protection in many installations (but I’m not familiar with the
installation code details).
Here in the US we are developing protection devices that will work at 15 mA and
25 mA. These are intended for use with charging electric vehicles. The 15 mA
device will be used in residential installations and the 25 mA device will be
used in commercial installations (haven’t followed the code development but
believe that this is how it is going).
All of these devices have been designed for sinusoidal AC systems and they all
have false tripping issues when used with equipment with line switching. SMPS
and VSD units are a problem today in that they trip a small number of
protection devices; their use is spreading into many more types of products.
From my perspective the units each have a statistical range of protection or
operation and they seem to overlap a small percentage of the time; this gives
rise to ‘nuisance tripping’ (meaning undiagnosed tripping). This is an issue
both in North America (GFCI & AFCI country) as well as the EuroZone (RCD
devices).
I worked with a student project last year which published a paper for the 2017
IEEE PSES ISPCE Symposium; Yuen et al, ‘Why do GFCIs keep tripping’. This paper
show that some GFCIs can be tricked into operating when they shouldn’t.
The non-sinusoidal nature of the earth/ground current as well as the CM/DM
signals have not been fully understood nor taken care of in a harmonized way
between the protection device and the load.
Lot’s of opportunity here for investigation and recommendation of mitigation
techniques.
:>) br, Pete
Peter E Perkins, PE
Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant
PO Box 23427
Tigard, ORe 97281-3427
503/452-1201
IEEE Life Fellow
mailto:p.perk...@ieee.org
From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2018 2:04 PM
To: mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] GFCI vs GFPE
I’ve recently come to understand that the 30mA Ground-Fault protectors, often
built into a circuit breaker, is intended to protect the Protective Earth
(Safety Ground) circuit in the case of a short circuit (opening the circuit
before the safety ground could be damaged. It this correct?
Here is my question. I’m evaluating a cut-off saw (5hp) which uses water to
keep the blade and material cool. The manufacturer uses a 3-phase supplementary
circuit breaker which includes the 30mA GFPE option. This is a very expensive
part. When I asked them why they use the GFPE part, they couldn’t give me a
good answer.
Would such a part be required on a 3-phase motor driven cutoff saw in either
North America or Europe? What standard would dictate this?
If the only purpose of a GFPE is to protect the Ground Circuit, on products
that can handle shorts without damaging the ground circuit, would a GFPE still
be necessary?
Where are GFPE typically used? What industry?
Please educate me. This is a new one on me.
Thanks,
Brian
From: Doug Nix [mailto:d...@ieee.org]
Sent: Friday, January 26, 2018 2:48 PM
To: mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] JOB POSTING - ONTARIO, CANADA
PLEASE CONTACT TED TYCZKA DIRECTLY
A very notable, “high-profile” client who is seeking a Safety & Services
Sales/Business Development Professional - to join their Machine Services
Division - the focus of the role is to spearhead/lead the sale of Engineering
Services related to “functional safety.”
The company sells safety training (workshops), machine assessment/audits,
engineering design per CSA and/or TUV Safety requirements (“Regulatory
Compliance”). The company also sells Remediation and Repair Services (of
industrial machines) together with Service Contracts ... to customers in the
aerospace, automotive, forestry, food & beverage, as well as, the packaging
sectors.
The Safety & Services/Business Development Professional can work from a home
office - anywhere in Ontario. A Bachelor of Science in Mechanical or Electrical
Engineering, together with the sale of Machine Safeguard devices and the
application of these, would be desired ... together, with some exposure to
Industrial Automation and perhaps Robotics. The key is to have some knowledge
of safety components, safety scanners, switches, controllers, etc. as well as
machine building experience.
The employer (a very reputable, Global entity/brand) ... who provide a very
competitive base salary, lucrative annual bonus/incentive program vs. results,
plus monthly car allowance, Benefits, Matching RRSP + (Training, Career
Opportunities and upward mobility).
They are good people, seek an ambitious self-starter who can cover sales from
the “shop floor” level to the “C Suite” (Boardroom). The company have
established Sales Reps across Canada ... who can work with the Safety &
Services Sales Specialist ... this role requires “consultative and solutions
oriented selling ability.
I will ensure absolute confidentiality. Nice opportunity with a great
organization and strong, capable leadership. Thanks.
Kind professional regards,
Ted Tyczka
President
Golden Mile Management – Consulting Services
2630 Eglinton Avenue East, Toronto, Ontario M1K 2S3
Tel: (416) 266 - 4434
Email: mailto:t...@gmmcs.com
Website: http://www.gmmcs.com/
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