The cited Armstrong chapter is a collection of best practices provided at a very high level (meaning nothing for a specific type of circuit such as CAN bus), and there is nothing in there that hasn¹t appeared in multiple sources for decades previous. If one followed this chapter, the CAN bus would be shielded like MIL-STD-1553. I¹m okay with that I know it will help, but that¹s totally not the point. The point is that standard CAN bus practice appears to be no shield or at best a shield terminated at one end, and at the same time rf susceptibility requirements at 100+ V/m, and BCI limits OTOO 100 dBuA or higher. These type of requirements in a military or aerospace application normally elicit a shielded cable with the shield terminated peripherally to a connector backshell.
But that doesn¹t appear to be the case with automotive. Some possible answers are: > CAN bus isn¹t used for critical applications so that degradation is allowed. > > CAN bus terminals implement software filtering to ignore bad data and ceases > to respond to CAN bus inputs until data is good. This is a subset of first > alternative. > > CAN bus terminals implement physical filtering that allows kHz dm signals to > pass but blocks MHz common mode signals. > > Other? I have an application where they plan on using CAN bus for an engine with aerospace application and they have aerospace type requirements and I¹m seeing a disconnect between standard aerospace cabling techniques and CAN bus, and I¹m looking at how automotive makes this work, since the requirements aren¹t that different. Ken Javor Phone: (256) 650-5261 From: "McCallum, Andy" <andy.mccal...@mottmac.com> Reply-To: "McCallum, Andy" <andy.mccal...@mottmac.com> Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2018 14:17:12 +0000 To: <EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> Conversation: [PSES] Automotive EMC question Subject: Re: [PSES] Automotive EMC question See Keith Armstrongs many papers on this for example: https://www.emcstandards.co.uk/files/design_techniques_for_emc_1999_part_2_c ables_and_connectors.pdf Andy From: Ken Javor [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com] Sent: 13 June 2018 15:01 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Automotive EMC question I was hoping to get a virtual dissection right here on this forum :-) Ken Javor Phone: (256) 650-5261 From: John Woodgate <j...@woodjohn.uk> Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2018 14:36:08 +0100 To: Ken Javor <ken.ja...@emccompliance.com>, <EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> Subject: Re: [PSES] Automotive EMC question If capacitors do not work, there must be another solution, and it must be known, because it is in use. Perhaps you could dissect your own (or preferably someone else's) means of transport to find out. John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk <http://www.woodjohn.uk> <http://www.woodjohn.uk> <https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.woodj ohn.uk&data=01%7C01%7CAndy.McCallum%40mottmac.com%7Ca035ed5b025546661968 08d5d1363b63%7Ca2bed0c459574f73b0c2a811407590fb%7C0&sdata=sMC92jNd8ZdTbH KT4evCLk%2Fgui7NRIMzy33Dnbef> Rayleigh, Essex UK On 2018-06-13 14:26, Ken Javor wrote: > Re: [PSES] Automotive EMC question I don¹t doubt that is the rationale. But > what is the fix then for high frequencies where you have stringent RE/RS > limits with a shield grounded at one end only? > > John Woodgate offered one suggestion using caps at the ungrounded end, but to > me that is a commercial fix where you have RE limits imposed at three meters > or more above 30 MHz, and RI limits at 1/3/10 V/m, whereas for automotive thee > are very stringent RE limits imposed down to 150 kHz and at one meter > separation, and also RS limits up to 200 /m. > > Ken Javor > Phone: (256) 650-5261 > > > > > > From: Ted Eckert <000007cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org> > <mailto:000007cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org> > Reply-To: Ted Eckert <ted.eck...@microsoft.com> > <mailto:ted.eck...@microsoft.com> > Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2018 22:57:00 +0000 > To: <EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> > Conversation: [PSES] Automotive EMC question > Subject: Re: [PSES] Automotive EMC question > > Consider my thoughts as pure conjecture. Automotive electronics often use the > chassis as the return for power. For high power devices, you run one wire and > tie the device¹s ground terminal to the chassis nearby. If the shield was > terminated at both ends, would there be a risk of higher return currents > flowing on that shield from other devices? > > > Ted Eckert > Microsoft Corporation > > The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my > employer or the Society of Automotive Engineers. > > > From: John Woodgate <j...@woodjohn.uk> <mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk> > Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2018 2:53 PM > To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG > Subject: Re: [PSES] Automotive EMC question > > I hope it also at least recommends that the grounding is at the sending end, > so that the cable capacitance is charged from the low-impedance source. I > guess that, e.g. in the auto environment, the risk of large shield currents is > too great to allow routine grounding at both ends. But I suppose that > grounding via a capacitor at the receiving end is not banned. If possible, > this capacitor should be of the lowest possible inductance, which is not > difficult with SMD, and if several capacitors are disposed radially around the > end of the shield and grounded at their outer ends on a metal ring, the > grounding should be good up to at least 1 GHz. > John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only > J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk <http://www.woodjohn.uk> > <http://www.woodjohn.uk> > <https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.woodjoh > n.uk&data=01%7C01%7CAndy.McCallum%40mottmac.com%7Ca035ed5b02554666196808d5 > d1363b63%7Ca2bed0c459574f73b0c2a811407590fb%7C0&sdata=sMC92jNd8ZdTbHKT4evC > Lk%2Fgui7NRIMzy33Dnbef> > <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.woodjohn. > uk&data=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C06dcf9fa28b84b06c1c008d5d0b > 00768%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C1%7C636644376846940054&sdat > a=L8vMop3oUcGnJh9%2F1N > <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.woodjohn. > uk&amp;data=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C06dcf9fa28b84b06c1c008d > 5d0b00768%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C1%7C636644376846940054& > amp;sdata=L8vMop3oUcGn> > > <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.woodjohn. > uk&amp;data=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C06dcf9fa28b84b06c1c008d > 5d0b00768%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C1%7C636644376846940054& > amp;sdata=L8vMop3oUcGn > <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.woodjohn. > uk&amp;amp;data=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C06dcf9fa28b84b06c1c > 008d5d0b00768%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C1%7C636644376846940054& > amp;amp;amp;sdata=L8vM> > > Rayleigh, Essex UK > On 2018-06-12 22:41, Ken Javor wrote: > >> The CAN bus spec says that shield(s) are to be grounded at one end only. How >> does this work vs. meeting stringent rf RE and RS requirements at frequencies >> where cables are electrically long? >> >> Thank you, >> >> Ken Javor >> Phone: (256) 650-5261 >> >> >> - >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc >> discussion list. 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To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > <emc-p...@ieee.org> <mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org> > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > <https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-ps > es.org%2Femc-pstc.html&data=01%7C01%7CAndy.McCallum%40mottmac.com%7Ca035ed > 5b02554666196808d5d1363b63%7Ca2bed0c459574f73b0c2a811407590fb%7C0&sdata=D2 > b16IoVAHoTDOw%2BFE5nty> > > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at > http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ > <https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fproduct-com > pliance.oc.ieee.org%2F&data=01%7C01%7CAndy.McCallum%40mottmac.com%7Ca035ed > 5b02554666196808d5d1363b63%7Ca2bed0c459574f73b0c2a811407590fb%7C0&sdata=fY > x8XTwAOEg38AHhhI1Y9Nax> can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), > large files, etc. > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > <https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-ps > es.org%2F&data=01%7C01%7CAndy.McCallum%40mottmac.com%7Ca035ed5b02554666196 > 808d5d1363b63%7Ca2bed0c459574f73b0c2a811407590fb%7C0&sdata=CkYcm%2BGOtbVjN > hQjE9xgiUW2FWuUXoIW1pt> > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html > <https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-ps > es.org%2Flist.html&data=01%7C01%7CAndy.McCallum%40mottmac.com%7Ca035ed5b02 > 554666196808d5d1363b63%7Ca2bed0c459574f73b0c2a811407590fb%7C0&sdata=6qS56S > K0slvresYzOQdRMnkkH5G2> (including how to unsubscribe) > <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> > <https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-ps > es.org%2Flist.html&data=01%7C01%7CAndy.McCallum%40mottmac.com%7Ca035ed5b02 > 554666196808d5d1363b63%7Ca2bed0c459574f73b0c2a811407590fb%7C0&sdata=6qS56S > K0slvresYzOQdRMnkkH5G2> > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > <https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-ps > es.org%2Flistrules.html&data=01%7C01%7CAndy.McCallum%40mottmac.com%7Ca035e > d5b02554666196808d5d1363b63%7Ca2bed0c459574f73b0c2a811407590fb%7C0&sdata=E > z2zjDUeby%2B%2FGaRSAF5> > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org> <mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org> > Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> <mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org> > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher <j.bac...@ieee.org> <mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org> > David Heald <dhe...@gmail.com> <mailto:dhe...@gmail.com> > > - > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > <emc-p...@ieee.org> > > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > <https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-ps > es.org%2Femc-pstc.html&data=01%7C01%7CAndy.McCallum%40mottmac.com%7Ca035ed > 5b02554666196808d5d1363b63%7Ca2bed0c459574f73b0c2a811407590fb%7C0&sdata=D2 > b16IoVAHoTDOw%2BFE5nty> > > > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at > http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ > <https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fproduct-com > pliance.oc.ieee.org%2F&data=01%7C01%7CAndy.McCallum%40mottmac.com%7Ca035ed > 5b02554666196808d5d1363b63%7Ca2bed0c459574f73b0c2a811407590fb%7C0&sdata=fY > x8XTwAOEg38AHhhI1Y9Nax> can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), > large files, etc. > > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > <https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-ps > es.org%2F&data=01%7C01%7CAndy.McCallum%40mottmac.com%7Ca035ed5b02554666196 > 808d5d1363b63%7Ca2bed0c459574f73b0c2a811407590fb%7C0&sdata=CkYcm%2BGOtbVjN > hQjE9xgiUW2FWuUXoIW1pt> > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html > <https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-ps > es.org%2Flist.html&data=01%7C01%7CAndy.McCallum%40mottmac.com%7Ca035ed5b02 > 554666196808d5d1363b63%7Ca2bed0c459574f73b0c2a811407590fb%7C0&sdata=6qS56S > K0slvresYzOQdRMnkkH5G2> (including how to unsubscribe) > <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> > <https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-ps > es.org%2Flist.html&data=01%7C01%7CAndy.McCallum%40mottmac.com%7Ca035ed5b02 > 554666196808d5d1363b63%7Ca2bed0c459574f73b0c2a811407590fb%7C0&sdata=6qS56S > K0slvresYzOQdRMnkkH5G2> > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > <https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-ps > es.org%2Flistrules.html&data=01%7C01%7CAndy.McCallum%40mottmac.com%7Ca035e > d5b02554666196808d5d1363b63%7Ca2bed0c459574f73b0c2a811407590fb%7C0&sdata=E > z2zjDUeby%2B%2FGaRSAF5> > > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org> > Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> > > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher <j.bac...@ieee.org> > David Heald <dhe...@gmail.com> > - ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <emc-p...@ieee.org> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html <https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee- pses.org%2Femc-pstc.html&data=01%7C01%7CAndy.McCallum%40mottmac.com%7Ca0 35ed5b02554666196808d5d1363b63%7Ca2bed0c459574f73b0c2a811407590fb%7C0&sd ata=D2b16IoVAHoTDOw%2BFE5nty> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ <https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fproduct-c ompliance.oc.ieee.org%2F&data=01%7C01%7CAndy.McCallum%40mottmac.com%7Ca0 35ed5b02554666196808d5d1363b63%7Ca2bed0c459574f73b0c2a811407590fb%7C0&sd ata=fYx8XTwAOEg38AHhhI1Y9Nax> can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ <https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee- pses.org%2F&data=01%7C01%7CAndy.McCallum%40mottmac.com%7Ca035ed5b0255466 6196808d5d1363b63%7Ca2bed0c459574f73b0c2a811407590fb%7C0&sdata=CkYcm%2BG OtbVjNhQjE9xgiUW2FWuUXoIW1pt> Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) <https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee- pses.org%2Flist.html&data=01%7C01%7CAndy.McCallum%40mottmac.com%7Ca035ed 5b02554666196808d5d1363b63%7Ca2bed0c459574f73b0c2a811407590fb%7C0&sdata= 6qS56SK0slvresYzOQdRMnkkH5G2> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html <https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee- pses.org%2Flistrules.html&data=01%7C01%7CAndy.McCallum%40mottmac.com%7Ca 035ed5b02554666196808d5d1363b63%7Ca2bed0c459574f73b0c2a811407590fb%7C0&s data=Ez2zjDUeby%2B%2FGaRSAF5> For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org> Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher <j.bac...@ieee.org> David Heald <dhe...@gmail.com> - ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <emc-p...@ieee.org> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org> Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher <j.bac...@ieee.org> David Heald <dhe...@gmail.com> - ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <emc-p...@ieee.org> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org> Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: <j.bac...@ieee.org> David Heald: <dhe...@gmail.com>
