John, Thanks for your advice! Normally accessibility of live parts is checked by the application of test finger. With reference to BS 1363-2, the conformity of accessibility of live parts shall be checked by the application of the test pin. Is it still qualified as a fault situation?
Thanks and regards, Scott On Tue, 17 Jul 2018 at 19:11, John Woodgate <j...@woodjohn.uk> wrote: > Well, strictly, an electric shock incident would be a 'two-fault' > situation - plug reversed AND conducting object inserted into the live > socket. In general, two-fault situations are almost impossible to avoid > but luckily also occur very rarely. > > John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only > J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk > Rayleigh, Essex UK > > On 2018-07-17 10:58, Scott Xe wrote: > > Hi Pete, > > Thanks for your view! Firstly I dare to say it is not a new issue since I > have read some reviews with this concern in the past plus a quick search of > products available on the market showing some models in exist. I do > believe the standard committee and manufacturers are well aware of it. It > must have a reason to be tolerated or in a lower priority. This forum has > lots of expert and senior and looking for their enlightenment or common > alignment. > > Regards, > > Scott > > > On Tue, 17 Jul 2018 at 01:26, Pete Perkins <peperkin...@cs.com> wrote: > >> Scott, >> >> >> >> In watching this thread it is clear that the technical >> assessment and the regulatory certification are two separate issues but >> linked by local law so we need to be cognizant of the regulatory >> environment. >> >> >> >> The technical assessment (per the standard) is organized >> by an ongoing group of (fallible) folks who work very hard to cover all of >> the risks (usually) from the product manufacturers point of view (since >> they seem to dominate the technical committees). Since the requirements >> are usually written in retrospect from experience and, usually, not >> organized in a top down approach (using the usual risk assessment tools – >> FMEA, etc) it is incomplete is some (usually) unexpected ways – as you have >> discovered. When exposed, the standards committee then scrambles to fill >> the hole identified. This is a never ending process, approaching >> perfection asymptotically. >> >> All this ignores the clever manufacturer who seeks out these holes and >> makes use of them to gain advantage in some way. >> >> >> >> The regulatory certification reflects the level of >> development of the National bureaucracy responsible for setting >> requirements. Additionally, the lobbying of legislators and bureaucrats by >> special interest groups affects the final rules applied. So it ends up >> being a patchwork of requirements that need to be applied by the >> manufacturer. >> >> John Woodgate assures us that the world is happy with the UK approvals; >> check it out carefully. Oh yes, a question – does Hong Kong or Singapore >> still use the British plug design? What residual of this usage is still >> left in the world? >> >> >> >> All of this is the reason that you and I (and most of the >> others on this net) have a meaningful job – once we get a little experience >> and are willing to put up with the uncertainty regarding the roles of >> requirements along with the varied level of enforcement by the legal >> jurisdictions. >> >> >> >> You are uncomfortable with this hole in the >> requirements. When we feel that the requirements or the application of >> requirements is either too strict or too slack our only recourse is to get >> (directly or indirectly) involved in fixing things (in which managers and >> technical folks excel) by joining a technical committee or lobbying the >> political process that needs fixing. >> >> >> >> My advice is: pick your fights carefully and pursue them >> with all you have – personal and corporate. You may even be successful in >> some of the efforts. >> >> >> >> So much philosophizing; good luck in fixing the world. >> >> >> >> :>) br, Pete >> >> >> >> Peter E Perkins, PE >> >> Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant >> >> PO Box 23427 >> >> Tigard, ORe 97281-3427 >> >> >> >> 503/452-1201 >> >> >> >> IEEE Life Fellow >> >> p.perk...@ieee.org >> >> >> >> *From:* Scott Xe <scott...@gmail.com> >> *Sent:* Monday, July 16, 2018 9:48 AM >> *To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG >> *Subject:* Re: [PSES] Safety design of shutter opening >> >> >> >> Dear Johns, >> >> >> >> Thanks for advice abt other countries using 13A plugs & sockets! Do they >> require specific approved bodies for issuing certification like UK? >> >> >> >> Regards, >> >> >> >> Scott >> >> >> >> *From: *John Allen <000009cc677f395b-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org> >> *Reply-To: *John Allen <john_e_al...@blueyonder.co.uk> >> *Date: *Monday, 16 July 2018 at 3:45 PM >> *To: *<EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> >> *Subject: *Re: [PSES] Safety design of shutter opening >> >> >> >> Also used in Malta and Cyprus (even in “Turkish” Northern Cyprus IIRC!) – >> and then there is Gibraltar. >> >> >> >> John E Allen >> >> W. London, UK >> >> >> >> *From:* John Mcauley [mailto:john.mcau...@cei.ie <john.mcau...@cei.ie>] >> *Sent:* 16 July 2018 01:03 >> *To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG >> *Subject:* Re: [PSES] Safety design of shutter opening >> >> >> >> Hi Scott >> >> >> >> Ireland uses the same plug as the UK as per I.S. 401:1997 - Safety >> Requirements For Rewireable And Non-rewireable 13A Fused Plugs. >> >> >> >> IS 401 is the equivalent of BS 1363. >> >> >> >> Interesting issue about plugs being able to be inserted upside down in >> some extension sockets. >> >> >> >> John McAuley >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* Scott Xe <scott...@gmail.com> >> *Sent:* 15 July 2018 23:32 >> *To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG >> *Subject:* Re: [PSES] Safety design of shutter opening >> >> >> >> Thank you for the clarification. >> >> >> >> On Mon, 16 Jul 2018, 12:47 am John Woodgate, <j...@woodjohn.uk> wrote: >> >> GPS applies to anything; that's why is called 'General...'. Anything can >> fall within more than one Directive, in fact all electrical products fall >> within both LVD and EMCD, as well as GPSD. >> >> BS 136X connectors are used outside the UK; the EU is not relevant to >> that. >> >> John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only >> >> J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk >> >> Rayleigh, Essex UK >> >> On 2018-07-15 17:33, Scott Xe wrote: >> >> The product is for UK market only since 13A rectangular pins. I believe >> only UK uses this type of plug within EU. As far as I remember, a couple >> of such product reviews raised this concern in the past but I did not know >> the BS standard does not prohibit it. I am uncomfortable with such design >> if it meets the standard. >> >> >> >> According to LVD guidance, this type of product falls into LVD, not GPS. >> John, how does this product relate to GPS? >> >> >> >> Thanks and regards, >> >> >> >> Scott >> >> >> >> *From: *John Woodgate <j...@woodjohn.uk> <j...@woodjohn.uk> >> *Date: *Sunday, 15 July 2018 at 10:53 PM >> *To: *Scott Xe <scott...@gmail.com> <scott...@gmail.com>, >> <EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> <EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> >> *Subject: *Re: [PSES] Safety design of shutter opening >> >> >> >> I believe that no-one thought of the possibility of a design that allowed >> that incorrect insertion. It is known to the responsible BSI committee, but >> of course it takes time for the standard to be amended. Until it is, >> conformity to the existing standard cannot be denied. However, the >> marketing of such a device might violate the GPS Directive in Europe, >> although that is not certain because unshuttered sockets are legal in some >> EU/EFTA countries. Since it only affects those countries that use the >> BS136X system, the appropriate regulatory action may be problematical. >> >> John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only >> >> J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk >> >> Rayleigh, Essex UK >> >> On 2018-07-15 14:52, Scott Xe wrote: >> >> I received a sample of portable extension sockets with a compliance >> certificate of BS 1363-2. It is noted the slim enclosure design allows the >> mains plugs to be inserted into the sockets up-side-down by mistake. In >> such circumstance, only the earth pin is inserted and the plug opens the >> shutter of L and N terminals posting the risk to access the L and N >> terminals with a test pin. It is a foreseeable misuse but seems no breach >> of the safety standard. Can someone share why it can be tolerated by the >> standard? >> >> >> >> Thanks and regards, >> >> >> >> Scott >> >> - >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc >> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to < >> emc-p...@ieee.org> >> >> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: >> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html >> >> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site >> at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in >> well-used formats), large files, etc. >> >> Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ >> Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to >> unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> >> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html >> >> For help, send mail to the list administrators: >> Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org> >> Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> >> >> For policy questions, send mail to: >> Jim Bacher <j.bac...@ieee.org> >> David Heald <dhe...@gmail.com> >> >> >> >> >> >> - >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc >> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to < >> emc-p...@ieee.org> >> >> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: >> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html >> >> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site >> at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in >> well-used formats), large files, etc. >> >> Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ >> Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to >> unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> >> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html >> >> For help, send mail to the list administrators: >> Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org> >> Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> >> >> For policy questions, send mail to: >> Jim Bacher <j.bac...@ieee.org> >> David Heald <dhe...@gmail.com> >> >> - >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc >> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to < >> emc-p...@ieee.org> >> >> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: >> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html >> >> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site >> at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in >> well-used formats), large files, etc. >> >> Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ >> Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to >> unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> >> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html >> >> For help, send mail to the list administrators: >> Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org> >> Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> >> >> For policy questions, send mail to: >> Jim Bacher <j.bac...@ieee.org> >> David Heald <dhe...@gmail.com> >> >> - >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc >> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to < >> emc-p...@ieee.org> >> >> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: >> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html >> >> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site >> at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in >> well-used formats), large files, etc. >> >> Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ >> Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to >> unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> >> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html >> >> For help, send mail to the list administrators: >> Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org> >> Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> >> >> For policy questions, send mail to: >> Jim Bacher <j.bac...@ieee.org> >> David Heald <dhe...@gmail.com> >> >> - >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc >> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to < >> emc-p...@ieee.org> >> >> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: >> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html >> >> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site >> at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in >> well-used formats), large files, etc. >> >> Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ >> Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to >> unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> >> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html >> >> For help, send mail to the list administrators: >> Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org> >> Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> >> >> For policy questions, send mail to: >> Jim Bacher <j.bac...@ieee.org> >> David Heald <dhe...@gmail.com> >> > - > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to < > emc-p...@ieee.org> > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at > http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in > well-used formats), large files, etc. > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org> > Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher <j.bac...@ieee.org> > David Heald <dhe...@gmail.com> > > > - ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <emc-p...@ieee.org> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org> Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: <j.bac...@ieee.org> David Heald: <dhe...@gmail.com>
