I don't understand why was a unused key defined in advance ?

  Michael

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Yoshihiro Ohba
> Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 6:57 AM
> To: Lakshminath Dondeti
> Cc: Yoshihiro Ohba; Alper Yegin; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [Hokeyp] [Emu] Re: MSK but no EMSK
> 
> On Thu, Nov 16, 2006 at 10:54:20AM -0800, Lakshminath Dondeti wrote:
> > At 10:30 AM 11/16/2006, Yoshihiro Ohba wrote:
> > >Hi Lakshminath,
> > >
> > >RFC 3748 says:
> > >
> > >"
> > >   Extended Master Session Key (EMSK)
> > >      Additional keying material derived between the EAP client and
> > >      server that is exported by the EAP method.  The EMSK 
> is at least
> > >      64 octets in length.  The EMSK is not shared with the
> > >      authenticator or any other third party.  The EMSK is 
> reserved for
> > >      future uses that are not defined yet.
> > >"
> > >
> > >Since EMSK usage is not defined yet, the use of EMSK is virtually 
> > >optional at this momement.  Since it was not mandated in the 
> > >beginning, it is not possible to change it mandatory for a 
> particular 
> > >use in a future without loss of interoperability with the existing 
> > >deployment.
> > 
> > I read it differently.  The EMSK is reserved for future 
> uses.  It is 
> > of course mandatory to derive the EMSK, but the use of it is simply 
> > not defined.  It is not optional to use.  It is not 
> mandatory either, 
> > it simply is unused.  When the EMSK is defined for a specific use 
> > case, then the question of whether the use is optional, 
> recommended or 
> > mandatory comes up.
> 
> I agree that this is more precise reading.  However, even 
> after defining a usage of EMSK, it is difficult to assume 
> that all peers and servers will always support the usage of 
> EMSK unless we can upgrade the existing EAP implementations 
> which do not use EMSK to the new ones *at one time*.  Thus, 
> as a proactive answer to the question, I don't really believe 
> that a specific use of EMSK can be mandated without breaking 
> interoperability with existing EAP implementations.
> 
> Yoshihiro Ohba
> 
> 
> > 
> > Lakshminath
> > 
> > 
> > >Am I missing something?
> > >
> > >Yoshihiro Ohba
> > >
> > >
> > >On Thu, Nov 16, 2006 at 09:38:10AM -0800, Lakshminath 
> Dondeti wrote:
> > >> At 06:27 AM 11/16/2006, Yoshihiro Ohba wrote:
> > >> >I made one comment around this in the HOKEY session.  
> The intent 
> > >> >of my comment was that use of EMSK is optional.
> > >>
> > >> Hi Yoshi,
> > >>
> > >> Which document says that the "use" of EMSK is optional?
> > >>
> > >> >There would be an
> > >> >interoperability issue if peer and server do not 
> negotiate on the 
> > >> >use of EMSK before actually using it.
> > >>
> > >> The interoperability issue would only come up if there is
> > >ambiguity or options.
> > >>
> > >> Lakshminath
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> >Yoshihiro Ohba
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >On Thu, Nov 16, 2006 at 11:01:15AM +0200, Alper Yegin wrote:
> > >> > >
> > >> > > I remember someone in Hokey WG meeting mentioned 
> that not all 
> > >> > > methods generate EMSK (even though they generate 
> MSK). Is that accurate?
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Despite this RFC 3748 text?
> > >> > >
> > >> > >    In order to provide keying material for use in a
> > >> > >    subsequently negotiated ciphersuite, an EAP 
> method supporting key
> > >> > >    derivation MUST export a Master Session Key (MSK) 
> of at least 64
> > >> > >    octets, and an Extended Master Session Key (EMSK) 
> of at least 64
> > >> > >    octets.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Alper
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > _______________________________________________
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> > >> > >
> > >> >
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> > 
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