Marx and Henry George got a lot right. I believe we need some constructive arguments that take more of modern science into similar account. Deep questions remain on such models of thought in use. Pretty much anything under discussion neglects much that could be brought into consideration. We seem to conduct much of argument without memory coming into the critical frame. Ideology is not safe in most hands, perhaps not even our own. Even science leads me to think the killing fields are close again. We are not living in peace with homo erectus or the Neanderthals - other than as assimilated in our gene history. The problems of 19th century imperialism have not gone away either, It's easy to conclude we don't take enough of human nature into account - most of the time we hear this it comes with the signature that the speaker has little clue on human nature.
One argument in current economics is that we don't have 'capitalism' but more of a hidden politburo rigging markets. I would say Berlusconi in Italy could give us clues about how easy a democracy is to manipulate and this probably translates across the world. In the end the questions are about just what the 'American Empire' is really about and quite how we come to justify it. We have to remember in this that we do operate under it and consider it better than trusting the rest of the world not arm and just sweep over us. This is true even as we are critical of it. I don't believe philosophy is much use because human beings have little general capability in it. On Jun 29, 9:36 pm, nominal9 <nomin...@yahoo.com> wrote: > Society and its institutions is complicated.... Archytas... > I always favored the notion that those who actually "invent" should > have the most social power... the engineers, scientists and such... > but the middle men usually get all the power and profit... even the > big corporations were alright, or at least better, as long as the > original owner - inventors were at their head.... then along came the > corporate structure... stocks... options... controlling interest... > etc. the motivation was not any longer building and innovating > "product" but marketing it at the greatest profit for the > investors.....investors are fickle... they look for the quick profit, > take their gain then look for the next "growing venture" to glom on to > and bleed dry.... > > Marxism gets a bad name, from the Capitalists,... actually Marx was on > to something, apart from the "workers unite" usual reduction that is > given to his notions.... alienation... the separation of the worker > (or producer) from the actual product he or she creates and > makes....that's where to look for a possible cure to society's > illshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marx%27s_theory_of_alienation > > Alienation reversed, to give the majority of producers control of > their "product'.... might help... I always thought. > > On Jun 27, 8:37 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > There was a really good novel on this called Flicker. The Cathars > > were putting stuff in black and white films that trained brains to go > > digital so that we would eventually be either on or off - with no > > return from off. The unsaid joke was that colour film ended the > > 'cunning plan'. > > > The current utter-bolloxs is that we need to keep 'growing economies' > > to do well. Oddly, this must be done on the basis of cuts to the > > quality of everyone's life except a parasitic few who go about > > bwanking in public. Having screwed the economy to such an extent that > > vast amounts more money are caught up doing nothing other than > > covering up losses of vital fluid, these are the people to entrust > > with our public services and everything so solid it can't melt into > > air, all bought with a loan from us so they can buy everything out > > from under. Hayek got the road to serfdom right, he just couldn't > > tell who the bad guys really were. > > > The jobs never come back once manufacturing or mining leave an area. > > One reason is that there is sod all to do really. We don't know what > > productive work is and are pretty useless in praise of idleness. > > > On Jun 28, 12:51 am, Lonnie Clay <claylon...@comcast.net> wrote: > > > > The questioning of big issues has been driven into the domain of cranks > > > and > > > crackpots > > > :https://sites.google.com/site/lonniecourtneyclay/home/tc5526ataoldotcom > > > > Psst! Hey buddy, want to go insane? LOLOL LOLOL > > > > Let's talk about the deterioration of *society* over the past 50 years due > > > to television then computers. Actually, it has been declining ever since > > > the > > > beginning of the industrial revolution, having reached its height in > > > Victorian times. Some would even say that the mental capabilities have > > > been > > > declining ever since the middle ages when the printing press was > > > invented. > > > Let's look forward in a quick whirl from before the printing press up to > > > now. > > > > 1) Everybody had to *remember* important things, if they knew them. It > > > took > > > a *long* time to write things down, and besides - who would read it? > > > People > > > talked talked talked, about anything and everything. There were oral > > > histories. News was passed from town to town by minstrels, gaining > > > embellishments along the way. Not much was known in the way of technology, > > > but we used the heck out of what we knew. Loyalty to family, relatives, > > > home > > > town, district, nation, mankind, God was practiced, not necessarily in > > > that > > > order. People were, as a general rule relatively selfless in the sense > > > that > > > to be known as "greedy" was a pejorative. > > > > 2) The printing press was invented, people started to learn how to read, > > > being taught by their relatives. Centers of "learning" started to pop up > > > outside of the religious enclaves. To be a person of letters became the > > > hallmark of achievement. To be illiterate was to be known as stupid, > > > regardless of how well a person could remember. Craftsmanship bloomed, > > > along > > > with trades and mechanical arts. > > > > 3) The industrial age began, with commerce being ruled by oligarchical > > > elites who owned corporations and private enterprise. Power shifted from > > > those who had held it by monarchial tradition to those who could find the > > > "main chance" and exploit it. Guilds died out, being replaced by unions, > > > and > > > eventually mass production was the dominant means of production. People > > > leaned how to do their jobs by reading manuals of instruction and the > > > master-apprentice relationships withered. Not that learning to do a job > > > was > > > particularly difficult, with everything becoming rote and specialized. > > > > 4) Radio, movies, and television were invented, displacing with > > > entertainments those hours of time outside the workplace where people once > > > gathered together in public places or read books, newspapers etc. > > > Computers > > > were invented to begin the grand project of automating jobs out of > > > existence. Personal computers were invented, permitting usage of computer > > > power by the technologically incompetent through standard packages of > > > software. The insidious infection of minds by computer gaming began, > > > competing with literature, music, and movies for attention. > > > > 5) The internet was invented and blossomed, permitting people to really > > > get > > > rolling online with web sites, UseNet and Google groups, then Blogs. > > > Nobody > > > had to learn how to use a computer anymore, we had gadgets and GUI > > > interfaces, so numbskulls could use computers as effectively as savvy > > > folks. > > > Having blossomed as an art before the invention of personal computers, > > > computer programming skills withered away, being replaced by web design. > > > Nobody needed logic to think about solving problems, because they just > > > needed to point and click and text each other on computers or cellphones. > > > > 6) Guess what? The art of cursive writing is almost extinct, manual > > > writing > > > with pencil or pen on paper is dying. Now you have ipads, ipods, iphones, > > > GPS, PCs, peak oil, and the oil price is driving the economy worldwide > > > into > > > the pits. Green is "good", smokestacks are "bad", nuclear power is > > > anathema, > > > solar is economically unviable, wind power is blossoming, tidal power > > > hasn't > > > been tapped, hydroelectric power is tapped out. Everything is electronic. > > > Nobody knows anything without looking it up in a manual anymore. Nobody > > > knows how to remember things except a select few self chosen or those > > > mentored by them. Nobody knows how to learn except those who studied > > > specially or who had conscientious parents. > > > > 7) See boy wizard Harry Potter waving his hands. Guess what happens if > > > (for > > > example) eight EMP devices are set off in low earth orbit to take out all > > > electronics and crash civilization on Earth? Renaissance man arises. > > > Wizards > > > rule! What's *your* contingency plan? > > > > Lonnie Courtney Clay (The Wizard Of Arlington) > > > p.s. I'm not making threats, just predicting. > > > > On Monday, June 27, 2011 12:20:29 PM UTC-7, archytas wrote: > > > > > Around the world economics is in disarray. Most of the west is being > > > > told it must face austerity and cut and sell its public sector to the > > > > NuPolitburo of the filthy rich. China zooms ahead - except it has > > > > built 64 million apartments no one lives in - including 12 ghost > > > > cities. Deng has shades of Mao and is inflating GDP with a housing > > > > bubble. > > > > > It's obvious the world needs to change. Human beings don't think much > > > > and much of what we think up to feel superior to animals turns out to > > > > be rot. We even find syntax in bird song. We now know that human > > > > decision-making is not rational and there are good reasons to believe > > > > over-focus on the rational does not produce Mr Spock but psychopaths. > > > > > I looked at the exams our 15-16 year olds do at school recently - in > > > > the UK these are called GCSEs. Even the higher level is drivel and I > > > > find it hard to fell right about incarcerating our young for this > > > > crude testing over 11 years. The hack-drivel of university is no > > > > better. I sometimes witness intelligent people being taught by idiots > > > > with the answer book. > > > > > We lack an epistemology of 'things this big'. What we once called > > > > bildung is now just a dreadful burden in what seems a freezing moral > > > > climate as bad as Soviet Paradise (and there still is Sino Paradise) > > > > or that of other vile imperialism. I don't mean to raise the Gulags > > > > and various genocides of long history other than in wondering if the > > > > same underlying crap with its more cuddly modern face is driving the > > > > same old society of despair. > > > > > Lonnie talked of the game of exchanging 'names' in discussion on Kant > > > > - I happen to think this wrong when trying to get at what might matter > > > > for realist or other epistemology, but he undoubtedly has a point. > > > > Intellectuals are bought off or bought up very easily in our economic > > > > systems. Many of the conferences I attended were just places for us > > > > to talk and let our hair down instead of teaching the rot expected of > > > > us. They became Lonnie's Game with food and exotic locations. > > > > > How can 'cuts' be an answer to anything when there is so much that > > > > needs doing? I understand the muck about the private sector cavalry > > > > rushing in - but this is drivel on any empirical basis. Centralising > > > > authority tends to > > ... > > read more » -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Epistemology" group. To post to this group, send email to epistemology@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to epistemology+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/epistemology?hl=en.
