https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups=#!topic/talk.politics.misc/QHC5EmTCysc
Let's move over to where this is on topic. I didn't really expect discussion to follow my post. Most of the things I post get few if any replies. You can point back to this thread if you like, but it might bring in a bunch of yahoos to epistemology if you do. I suspect that my libertarian views will never agree with your liberal ones. Let's leave it at that, shall we? Lonnie Courtney Clay On Saturday, March 23, 2013 9:35:44 AM UTC-7, nominal9 wrote: > > Thank you for your reply (Mr. ) Lonnie Clay...... > I am not trying to "bait" you....I suggest to you that some of your > "concepts" or proposed ways of reasoning may themselves be of a > "totalitarian" bent or direction or leaning (all metaphors) to say that, in > their abstract sense or definition, maybe you do not see that they are > Preferential to one or some and Restrictive against the others or many.... > > (under the fixed term electoral system) the representatives are elected by > those motivated to steal the fruits of other's work / LC > > See?.... now "factually" in any close-to-democratic system.... the > representatives are elected by the "majority" of the popular votes of the > citizen voters....By your claim, LC, the majority of "individual voters" > here in the U.S. are motivated by "greed" and bent on "stealing" ... If > that were actually so.... then the majority of voters would be in > prison.... but prisoners don't get to vote... I know, that's a > statistically "minor" effect argument... but the true factual contrary to > your point is that .... for all this supposed "thievery".... the majority > of voters do not seem to be getting very rich off it....To the contrary, it > is the actual "rich" that seem to benefit the most from the way the > politically disbursed money pie is cut up....Cases in point.... Wall Street > bailouts... too big to fail....Military Industrial Complex...Oil and Energy > subsidies..... Agriculture subsidies.... Business Tax subsidies and > Deregulation... and on and on.... > > In another sense.... it would seem to me that you want to somehow further > negate or nullify the "majority vote" of the "little guy" voters even > more.....as degraded and economically ineffective as it actually is. > > Entitlements blossom into a burden on society that gobbles up all excess > capital through sales of government debt with deficit budgets. / LC > > > Well, again, factually the governmental "burden on society" economically > stems a lot more from the "woes" that the Wall Street-Banking, > Military-Industrial Complex, Business-Industrial-Energy-Agricultural > subsidies an deregulation, etc. that the so-called "private entrprise" > corporate sector have imposed and caused.... not on what the actual > "worker" little folks get and pay for (income tax, FICA, etc.).... > > > Business investments and research decline leading to stagnation of the > economy. /LC > > Business investments are "hoarded".... they say that money is fungible.... > it can be kept in the "pocket" just as easily as spent or invested.... the > rich just stow it away or let it stagnate, as gold or durable commodities > and such.... that's the stagnation.... and that's the actual "trigger" for > what the Federal Reserve(s) and the Treasury (s) world wide have been > forced to do.... "create" new money to replace that"pocketed" moneythe rich > took out of circulation (Wall Street / Banks didn't Crash.... they stole > the money that was there to begin with.... and they get first dibs on the > "new" money coming in).... As for the research.....most of that is "public > sector"....what little of it there is left, in actual "research"......the > "private sector" doesn't "do" research... at least not here in the U.S. > > > http://www.locomotive-project.org/cms/Content/download/The_Global_View_on_Outsourcing_of_RandD.pdf > > > Anyway... Lonnie.... it's obvious that you and I are miles apart....on the > facts.... I think you are mistaken (I can go that far, for sure.....) > > > > On Saturday, March 23, 2013 11:13:39 AM UTC-4, Lonnie Clay wrote: >> >> I never encountered the term "Communal Modesty" before and there are only >> 189 google hits on it, so it is probably NOT something of which I am >> guilty. I am quite familiar with personal greed both as work and steal. The >> problem assaulting governments worldwide is that (under the fixed term >> electoral system) the representatives are elected by those motivated to >> steal the fruits of other's work. Entitlements blossom into a burden on >> society that gobbles up all excess capital through sales of government debt >> with deficit budgets. Business investments and research decline leading to >> stagnation of the economy. >> http://www.economist.com/content/global_debt_clock >> >> With government debt growing faster than economic expansion there is a >> ticking bomb which will go off within the next decade or two. At what point >> will government debt be downgraded to junk status, wiping out the >> accumulated wealth of debt holders? What is a way to fix the system so that >> there is no debt, and entitlements are under control? That is the question >> which I was trying to answer in 1997... >> >> You can assign your proxy to yourself and spend all your time reading >> proposed legislation, but unless you are a billionaire it probably would be >> better to find a compatible professional representative to whom you assign >> a proxy voting right. >> >> Business stockholders meetings operate on one voting share one vote which >> is not strictly one dollar one vote because some types of stock are not >> allowed to vote, receiving a dividend instead. >> >> I loathe all forms of totalitarianism, but since you seem to be fond of >> jumping to conclusions on little evidence, I'll keep in mind that you are >> probably trying to bait me rather than meaning your accusation seriously. >> >> Lonnie Courtney Clay >> >> >> On Friday, March 22, 2013 8:20:31 AM UTC-7, nominal9 wrote: >>> >>> Believe me, (Mr. ) Lonnie Clay.... I read your whole linked article (or >>> blog).... considering how far it goes back (1990s) you were very >>> intelligent then and probably still are.... but I'm not here to stroke >>> egos, yours or my own.....My point is that when anyone chooses one >>> "approach" (in all walks -fields-or senses) they deny others.....The >>> options to your own approach to the "politcal-economic" questions you raise >>> embodies certain "ways and mans" that automatically negate others.... Let's >>> assume that for purposes of argument each "variation" is doable (which may >>> well NOT be the case, depending on the math or base assumptions >>> involved..... but let's assume that they are... doable). The next question >>> is... which is "ethically better"?.....let me propose the same overall >>> social-economic quandary in another way to you >>> >>> Personal Greed / Steal....... Communal Modesty / Work >>> >>> Personal Greed / Work........Communal Modesty / Steal >>> >>> This is a bit lower down the "taxonomic " scale...... So... (Mr.) Lonnie >>> Clay.... can I assume that you opt for the Communal Modesty / Steal pole of >>> the opposition? >>> >>> BY the way, from your article.... Why "proxy".... and not direct >>> personal vote... in politics?..... you do know that "stockholders" operate >>> on the principle... One dollar One vote.... not One stockholder One Vote >>> (proxy has nothing to do with the "power" relationship)......Capitalism is >>> not a "shared" authority environment.... Frankly, I believe that your >>> "tendency" is toward a totalitarian politics..... by your >>> suggestion.....not a democratic politics.... >>> >>> On Friday, March 22, 2013 10:31:25 AM UTC-4, Lonnie Clay wrote: >>>> >>>> That's a very simple minded two dimensional view of reality. You know >>>> that the real world is much more complex. I'm not going to get into an >>>> argument except on the contents of my posting. Debate my propositions and >>>> facts, not some academic mumbo-jumbo catch phrases. To answer, I prefer >>>> capitalism democracy but not in its purest form. >>>> >>>> Lonnie Courtney Clay >>>> >>>> On Thursday, March 21, 2013 11:38:03 AM UTC-7, nominal9 wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Democracy = One Person, One Vote. >>>>> Totalitarianism = One Person, All the Votes. >>>>> >>>>> Socialism = One Person, One Dollar. >>>>> Capitalism = One Person, All the Dollars. >>>>> >>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square_of_opposition >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Democratic / Socialism...........Totalitarian / Capitalism >>>>> >>>>> Democratic / Capitalism..........Totalitarian / Socialism >>>>> >>>>> Where do you stand, Lonnie... "governmentally' and "economically".... >>>>> combined? >>>>> >>>>> Choose one and you oppose the others... either in part or in the >>>>> whole.... >>>>> >>>>> Totalitarian / Capitalism is usually referred to as "Fascism".... >>>>> Totalitarian / Socialism.......Communism.... >>>>> >>>>> On Wednesday, March 20, 2013 12:24:56 PM UTC-4, Lonnie Clay wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> http://lonniecourtneyclay.blogspot.com/2011/07/blast-from-halloween-1997.html >>>>>> >>>>>> Lonnie Courtney Clay >>>>>> >>>>>> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Epistemology" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to epistemology+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to epistemology@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/epistemology?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
