If I were advertising, there are better places to do it, and better ways. I feel like adding class to JS would be detrimental to the language and the users of the language, and I feel that the previous discussions on the topic did not make a strong enough argument against it.
- Eric On Jun 29, 2013 9:05 AM, "Domenic Denicola" <dome...@domenicdenicola.com> wrote: > FYI this thread honestly feels like you're trying to get more people to > watch your video and use your library. I'm sorry not enough people are > using/watching your stuff, but this mailing list isn't really the place to > push it. > > On Jun 29, 2013, at 8:58, "Eric Elliott" <e...@ericleads.com> wrote: > > Hi Alex, > > Your response is extremely vague. It doesn't seem to say more than "I > think you're wrong. Oh, and lots of other people think you're wrong too." > > 1) Who are these "many" who disagree with the potential for harm? Can you > cite some references? > > 2) Have you watched the talk? https://vimeo.com/69255635 > > 3) Are there specific points that you disagree with? > > - Eric > > > On Sat, Jun 29, 2013 at 7:11 AM, Alex Russell <slightly...@gmail.com>wrote: > >> >> On 28 Jun 2013 19:31, "Eric Elliott" <e...@ericleads.com> wrote: >> > >> > I'm not here to discuss the mechanics of what class does. I'm just >> saying we shouldn't do it in the spec. >> >> And many, including me, disagree with you: both in the potential for harm >> and for reasons that are about our own codebases. >> >> > There are better alternatives that pose less threat to the JavaScript >> ecosystem. >> > >> > A handful of libraries and JavaScript authors twisting prototypes to >> make them less useful is one thing. Getting a blessing from on-high for >> people to teach that it's "how to do inheritance in JavaScript" in teaching >> materials is quite another thing. >> > >> > My arguments (and a few suggested alternatives) are in the video. >> > >> > If you're going to blow off what I have to say about it because you >> don't have time to watch a video, I guess the conversation is over. =) >> > >> > - Eric >> > >> > >> > On Fri, Jun 28, 2013 at 10:45 AM, Tab Atkins Jr. <jackalm...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> On Fri, Jun 28, 2013 at 10:42 AM, Eric Elliott <e...@ericleads.com> >> wrote: >> >> > I know this has been batted around already. I know everybody's >> totally >> >> > stoked about class sugar in ES6. I just wanted to register my >> protest. I >> >> > made my arguments in this talk at Fluent: >> >> > >> >> > >> http://ericleads.com/2013/06/classical-inheritance-is-obsolete-how-to-think-in-prototypal-oo/ >> >> > >> >> > I'm already seeing nasty codebase arthritis creep into JavaScript >> projects >> >> > thanks to things like Backbone.View.extend() being essentially >> mandatory. >> >> > >> >> > Providing sugar to extend classes in JavaScript proper is like >> officially >> >> > sanctioning that nonsense. >> >> > >> >> > I'm not the only one who feels that way. Here's an excerpt from one >> viewer's >> >> > comment on my presentation: >> >> > >> >> > "I think this will only get worse with ES6 and I am rather upset >> about it. >> >> > While 'class' will be elective of course, I can only imagine more >> and more >> >> > libraries adopting the ES6 class pattern, and then we will wind up >> facing >> >> > the same set of challenges that exist in the Java world." >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > In my opinion, the clamoring for class in JavaScript is because >> JavaScript >> >> > tries to hide prototypes, rather than make it easy to deal with them. >> >> > Instead of class, we should let library authors continue to >> experiment with >> >> > other inheritance patterns in JavaScript. Here's an example: >> >> > >> >> > https://github.com/dilvie/stampit >> >> > >> >> > We do need a bit more object sugar in JS, but I think we should wait >> for >> >> > some patterns to gain a foothold in the wild, and only when popular >> patterns >> >> > emerge and have time to be tested and proven to be well-thought-out >> and a >> >> > valuable addition (unlike Backbone's .extend(), which is causing >> lots of >> >> > problems in the real world), only THEN should the idea be blessed by >> the >> >> > specification. >> >> > >> >> > Is class a good idea in JavaScript? I say, prove it. In fact, >> anything that >> >> > can have a reference implementation should be proven - not just by >> >> > implementing it to see if it can work, but if it can be polyfilled >> (or >> >> > something like it could be polyfilled), put it in a library and see >> if it >> >> > catches on before you add it to the spec, and everybody starts to >> write >> >> > about it in their "new JavaScript features" posts. >> >> > >> >> > So far, NO IMPLEMENTATION of class in JavaScript has become a >> de-facto >> >> > standard. I think we should set the bar a little higher where a new >> feature >> >> > could actually cause damage to the language ecosystem. >> >> > >> >> > Until Backbone came along and made .extend() the default way to >> create any >> >> > Backbone object, it was very easy for a JavaScript programmer to >> spend an >> >> > entire career having never extended from an existing class. And that >> was a >> >> > good thing. >> >> >> >> Lots and *lots* of code already uses "the class pattern" is JS, >> >> because the class pattern is nothing more than: >> >> >> >> function Foo(){...} >> >> Foo.prototype = ...; >> >> Foo.prototype.method1 = function(){...} >> >> >> >> The class syntax just makes this super-common idiom easier to read and >> write. >> >> >> >> ~TJ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> es-discuss mailing list >> >> es-discuss@mozilla.org >> >> https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/es-discuss >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > es-discuss mailing list >> > es-discuss@mozilla.org >> > https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/es-discuss >> > >> > > _______________________________________________ > es-discuss mailing list > es-discuss@mozilla.org > https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/es-discuss > >
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