EV Digest 2662
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: getting OT, Segway
by "Humphrey, Timothy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Motors was Heibao
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Motor, surprise!
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Sob... I think if fried my motor.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Motor, surprise!
by [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Rhett T. George)
6) EVs park for free in San Jose
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Motor, surprise!
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Motors was Heibao
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: Reality closing in - LeSled wiring and universal input relays
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Motors was Heibao
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Golf cart tires/rims replacements.
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Motors was Heibao
by "garry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Motors was Heibao
by "garry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) ZAP RAP FEVER: page to sell or trade your EV
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Motor, surprise!
by "garry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Motor, surprise!
by "garry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Motor, surprise!
by "garry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: 2003 Tour de Sol Reports begin shortly ...
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
19) ADC 8" testing
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: EV insurance companies :-)
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: S-10 problems (was pick-up truck dimensions?)
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Non-profit would never fly (was RE: ZAP RAP FEVER: page to sell or trade your EV)
by "Edward Ang" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Non-profit would never fly (was RE: ZAP RAP FEVER: page to sell or trade your
EV)
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Fw: Sob... I think if fried my motor. If it's just a fuse there is a God.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) EVLN(BYD pushing ahead with plans into building electric cars)
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) EVLN($Lm3.2m invested in Malta EV for Euro/African markets)
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Andrew King wrote:
> Joseph
> I guess I'm still not seeing what I could do on a Segway that
> I couldn't
> do on my old 10 speed.
How about, .. ride it on the sidewalk. Here in NY it is illegal to ride a
bicycle on the sidewalk. Of course, few people obey bicycling laws, and they
are not enforced. But, nevertheless, they do exist.
However, I see your point and agree with it wholeheartedly.
I have a friend whose legs are in really bad shape. He can hardly walk, but
his pride will not allow him to use a wheelchair. I wonder if a Segway will
work for him. I doubt it. He has trouble even standing.
Stay Charged!
Hump
> The main advantage the Segway has is manuverability, if you
> want to ride
> any distance it makes more sense to me to have something that can go
> faster out in the street even if it can't make a U-turn in
> it's own length
> If I were a mail carrier or worked in a huge factory and had
> to carry 50
> pounds of tools it might be more useful.
> For the kind of zipping around town that I do I think a
> Segway would be
> slower, cost more and exercise my legs less than my 30 year
> old Motobecane.
> For that matter an E-bike would be better than the Segway and
> still cost
> a bunch less.
> Perhaps when I find a Segway at a garage sale I might try it out
> although a complex device bought cheap might require a lot of
> troubleshooting and/or expensive parts.
>
> --
> Andrew King
> Ann Arbor Michigan
> technology is the answer, what was the question?
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Motors require a magnetic field in order to work. This field can either
be produced by a permanent magnet or an electrical field coil.
Motors also require a seperate electrical coil that either moves through
the magnetic field or is fixed and moves the magnetic field (depends on
whether the magnets are fixed or moveable)
At any rate you end up with a coil moving through a magnetic field. This
generates electricity, what we call Back EMF. It's one of the basic
laws of magnetism.
The only way to avoid this is to have every wire in the coil parallel to
magnetic lines of force. Unfortunately if you do this then you can't
push against the magnetic field and the motor does run.
Any time you have the coil oriented so it can push against the magnetic
field it is also oriented to generate electricity from that movement.
The two functions are inseparable.
Study some basic physics and read up a bit on how motors work, then you
will understand that you are 100% wrong.
On Thu, 2003-03-20 at 01:59, garry wrote:
> Hi Peter,
>
> I'm always open to correction so please excuse me if I make a mistake, but I
> believe that back emf is the byproduct of an electric motor and just because
> it is dealt with in them doesn't mean it is good or has to be there.
>
> I am 100% sure I can remove any generated current in a motor, I haven't
> quite figured out how im going to do this in a standard motor but I know it
> can be done.
>
>
> Garry Stanley
>
> Cable.net.nz
>
>
>
--
EVDL
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Back EMF is NOT a loss. All Back EMF does is limit how much current the
motor draws. Without Back EMF a typical EV motor would draw thousands
of Amps all of the time.
One more time Back EMF is NOT a loss. It doesn't figure into motor
losses at any point. It is simply a function of how motors work.
Also Back EMF does NOT go up at 4:1 with speed. It is linear, Double
the speed you double the Back EMF. The reason you don't see double the
RPM when you double the voltage on your motors is probably because they
are low efficiency motors.
In a motor you have I2R losses, friction losses, windage losses, and
magnetic losses.
If the motor is generating the field (not a permanent magnet) then the
field might already be saturated at the lower voltage and doubling the
applied voltage results in less than double the magnetic field strength.
Windage losses go up as the square of the RPM, this can be a significant
portion of your losses.
Friction losses are typically linear.
If these losses end up slowing the motor so that it doesn't double it's
speed when doubling the applied voltage, then the motor draws more
current. The I2R losses go up as the square of the applied current
(that's by definition I2R stands for Current (I) squared times
Resistance (R) )
Typically speaking high efficiency motors WILL nearly double their RPM
when you double the applied voltage...up to a point. Sooner or later
you will saturate the magnetic fields or the motor will go into
self-disassembly mode.
This is of course talking about permanent magnet or shunt/sep ex
motors.
Series wound motors are much more complicated and their RPM depends on
both the applied voltage and the load they are experiencing. Typically
the load is not constant when doubling voltage so their actual RPM can
end up higher or lower than double the original RPM.
> I don't think what you are measuring is back emf.
>
> Back emf is the force generated by any magnetic field as it approaches and
> leaves a coil.
>
> In the case of an ev where they aren't generally going to have permanent
> magnets the rotor is still powered as it passes the stator coils and power
> is generated.
>
> It could be me using the wrong term here but let me assure you back emf
> never goes out the shaft to drive a motor it always works against the motor,
> and its value increases with motor speed at a rate up to around 4 to 1, this
> is one of the reasons that you take a motor and run it on 12 volts and
> measure its rpm and then on 24 volts its usually about 50% more speed rather
> than 100% more as the increased voltage would lead you to believe.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I went up a hill I almost stall on everytime with an extra 350 pounds. I
stalled and tried to feather the clutch and something stopped working. I
had to back down the hill. The big 400 amp fuse is good. I smell something
burnt coming up from the motor...sobbbbbbbb..... Gotta jack it up and test
the motor.l..What could it be.....????Lawrence Gotta drive an ice to work
sob.....Rhodes.........
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
- Greetings -
Just looking at the DC motor one sees the field (usually does not rotate
in a brushed machine) and the armature (does rotate and rotates the com-
mutator). The magnetic field may be provided by a permanent magnet,
winding in series with the armature circuit, winding in parallel with
the armature circuit, winding separately supplied by other than armature
circuit, or some combination. When the motor is normally powered, there
will be an armature current and a field providing magnetic flux.
If the load allows the motor to turn, then the conductors on the armature
move thru the flux provided by the magnetic field. If the load is driven
by the motor torque (instead of some bigger motor on the other end), then
as the armature rotates, conductors cut the magnetic flux and a voltage
is generated in the armature conductors which lessens the current. This
is called back EMF.
What is the effect of back EMF? Here is what happens to the voltage.
Supply voltage = motor current x armature (+ brush) resistance +
back EMF.
Motor current x resistance = Power lost as heat in the resistance.
This observation about motor current x resistance shows that part of the
voltage is lost in heating the motor.
Where does the shaft power come from? Heating the motor does not yield
any shaft power. The total power equation looks like this.
Power in (supply voltage x current) = power lost to heat +
power to shaft
Power to shaft = back EMF x current
If one wishes to get rid of back EMF, one may:
a) remove conductors from armature,
b) remove the magnetic field and flux, or
c) do not let the armature rotate.
Hope this helps.
Rhett George
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Steve for your efforts.
Its good to have others try.
My original POST was to share an experience at the San Fernando
parking structure (not San Pedro), and the experience of the
EV driver who got burned by the City of San Jose with a
parking ticket.
Email to me and POSTs on other EV groups state a mix of
experiences of EV drivers parking in San Jose. Some EV drivers
have had no problems, and some had to talk the parking
structure employee into not paying (they werenot informed).
Most EV drivers parked the San Jose convention center.
My main reason for the original and follow up POSTs on this
topic is to warn that, while the City of San Jose gives
'damage control' lip service, the people on the ground are
not informed, thus San Jose's stated free parking is not a
sure thing.
Though they have touted and shouted there is free parking
for EVs, San Jose City parking is not Sacramento City parking,
where all Sacramento parking employees are informed and
know what they are doing.
*Always carry with you a print-out of their statement.
But do not be surprized if that does not do much. The
parking employees at the San Fernando structure, did not
want to hear anything the driver had to say. They said
to go to their main office to contest what they have
been 'told'.
I did that (it was several blocks away) and was told to go
another office, just to be told to go to another office
(basically given the run around). The last office said the
people that handle EV parking were not there (at 3 pm?).
So, if you want to take advantage of the San Jose free
parking statement, it really depends on which parking
employee you will deal with, their mood, and ...
"How lucky do you feel?"
=====
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'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Garry Stanley wrote:
> Back emf is the force generated by any magnetic field as it
> approaches and leaves a coil.
More specifically, it is the VOLTAGE generated across a coil when it
moves in a magnetic field.
> In the case of an ev where they aren't generally going to have
> permanent magnets the rotor is still powered as it passes the
> stator coils and power is generated.
EMF is FORCE, not power. If the current is zero, the power is zero. So
an open-circuited coil moving in a magnetic field generates a voltage
(EMF), but it generates no power and does no work. You will find you can
move this coil freely in the magnetic field; it does not resist movement
any more than a block of wood.
The direction of current flow determines whether the coil is producing
energy, or consuming energy.
> It could be me using the wrong term here but let me assure you
> back emf never goes out the shaft to drive a motor
Again, terminology is getting you mixed up. First, understand that EMF
is a polite fiction; an analogy that we use to help understand how a
motor works. Like pretending that electricity in a wire behaves like
water in a pipe. And like most analogies, it breaks down when used
incorrectly (how come water leaks out when you make a hole in a pipe,
but electricity doesn't leak out when you make a hole in a wire?).
The EMF doesn't literally "come out the shaft of a motor". What does
happen is that there is ideally a 1:1 relationship between back EMF and
motor shaft speed. The voltage you see across a motor is approximately
equal to its back EMF, which is in turn approximately equal to its
speed. The difference between them is due to resistance, friction, and
other losses (the motor isn't perfect). To a first approximation, we can
say that the voltage controls the speed, so "the back EMF comes out the
shaft as speed."
> its value increases with motor speed at a rate up to around 4 to 1;
> this is one of the reasons that you take a motor and run it on 12
> volts and measure its rpm and then on 24 volts its usually about
> 50% more speed rather than 100% more as the increased voltage would
> lead you to believe.
This error is due to using inefficent motors. An ordinary automotive or
toy PM motor is only about 50-60% efficient. Almost half the power that
goes in is burned up as heat. Doubling the voltage roughly quadruples
the losses (frictional and magnetic losses double; but resistive losses
quadruple; wind resistance losses from the spinning rotor go up even
faster).
Take the same motor, and spin it as a generator. Put a very high
impendance meter on the motor's leads (so the current is zero, making
the resistive losses zero). Friction, magnetic, and wind resistance
losses will be made up for by the torque you need to apply to the motor
to turn it. You will find that doubling the speed doubles the voltage
over a very wide range, exactly as theory predicts.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
garry wrote:
> I am 100% sure I can remove any generated current in a motor, I haven't
> quite figured out how im going to do this in a standard motor but I know it
> can be done.
>
> Garry Stanley
Oh, brother...
Now I know why you suggested rewinding fridge motor.
Have fun, report your achievements.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks to everyone for the responses!
Lee Hart wrote:
> > Alternatively, is there a simple circuit you can put ahead of the
> > relay coil that would give it a consistent voltage
> regardless of what
> > the plug sees?
>
> Yes again. The simplest circuit is a plain old light bulb in
> series with the coil. Light bulbs work as a crude
> constant-current source. Pick a bulb that happens to provide
> 120vac across the coil when the line voltage is 240vac.
> You'll find that on 120vac, the bulb will barely glow, but
> the relay coils still has 90-100vac (enough to guarantee that
> a 120vac coil will pull in).
I like this. Nice and simple. The only problem I see is that if the
light doesn't light (because the bulb blew), the interlock is not
active, causing a hazardous situation.
> On my LeCar, I've taken the opposite approach. The main
> contactors have an auxiliary switch; its contacts are wired
> to the charger so the key has to be off to enable the charger.
This is perhaps the cleanest solution of all. If I understand
correctly, there are low current NC contacts that open as the main
contacts close. Where do I find a contactor like this? I looked for an
Albright contactor with this feature, but there is almost no data in the
"data" sheets on the Curtis site.
Richard Furniss wrote:
> Here are a couple of thing to think about, if you install
> a relay to break either the high voltage or low voltage
> circuit of your traction pack, that will be inserting another
> possible failure point into your system making it harder to
> find those pesky intermittent no go problem,
It's a good point, but I'd prefer to keep the interlocks and lay out my
electrical boxes so troubleshooting such things is easy.
> that setup
> disables the traction motor, or you could use a non-disabling
> circuit, something like a back-up alarm inside the car and
> connect it so that when the relay see A/C voltage it close
> the relay to the alarm and the ignition key supplies the D/C
> to the alarm warning you not to drive off, either way you do
> it there is a chance of driving off while the car is still
> plugged in, like when the breaker pops or the plug gets
> knocked loose at the wall end.
Yeah, but I prefer an idiot-proof solution. I'd like to be able to lend
the car to someone with no EV experience and be confident they can't
hurt themselves.
> But to answer your question a
> solid state relay has a universal A/C input and a isolated
> D/C output, try www.mouser.com
Thanks for the link. A quick look suggests this might be a good way to
go, if a bit more expensive.
David Roden wrote:
> Get a 12v universal switching supply, such as a laptop computer power
> supply. This can be used for 12v "house power," including
> the start inhibit
> relay, when the vehicle is plugged in.
Great idea. I never realized laptop supplies were universal input. I
have a 15V, 2A and a 16V, 4A laying around. Plenty for a relay and
fans. And the price is right! Still, if the power supply fails, the
interlock fails without any indication.
Thomas Shay wrote:
> A simpler and in my opinion a better way is to arrange the
> charging cord and receptacle so that the cord can be pulled
> out without doing any damage when you forget to unplug it.
This is also a good point. After thinking about this, it may actually
be easier to put a charge port somewhere other than the former gas
filler on my car. I'll keep this in mind as I figure out where that
might be.
Victor Tikhonov wrote, responding to Steve Clunn:
> Use a reed switch and small magnet attached to the filler
> hatch door If you use it for inlet location). This way you
> can't drive with hatch open even if nothing plugged in,
> *ensuring* you can't drive away while charging.
>
> Victor
>
>
> 1sclunn wrote:
> >
> > I have done that, drive down the road with the extension cord
> > following behind . Very humiliating. neighbor got a good laugh. My
> > though is that you want somthing that will not let the car run when
> > cord is pluged into car even if the cord is not pluged into the
> > house..some small micro switch that the cord pushes agenst ../....
> > then you don't have to worry about the voltage or if the cord is
> > pluged into the house . Steve Clunn
Now this is a subtlety I missed at first. I figured putting a switch on
the charge port door was the same as a relay sensing charger input. But
you're right, the cord can cause you a problem without being plugged in.
Thanks again everyone. I started out lost, now I'm buried in options!
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This wasn't suppose to go on the list... Sorry...
Victor
>
> Oh, brother...
>
> Now I know why you suggested rewinding fridge motor.
>
> Have fun, report your achievements.
>
> Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> My Laher takes a 5 lug 18 x 9.50 - 8. What tread pattern is
> legal in California? Do Trailer tires with 5 lug fit? Is it
> wise to go with narrower tires? The Laher runs. Gotta
> figure out how to speed it up a bit. Don't really want to run
> wide tires unless it is to my benefit. Lawrence Rhodes...
Hi Lawrence,
I don't have a good answer, but I have questions. First, that looks
like an industrial tire spec, with the 18 possibly being the overall
tire diameter? As opposed to the rim diameter as you would expect for a
car tire. If that's true and you use car or trailer tires, be very
careful that the rim is compatible with the tire. You would select a
tire width based on the rim width. The tire specs will list a range of
widths.
I think I remember a post suggesting the Laher has little or no
suspension. If that's the case you can get into deep trouble in
speeding it up (and maybe even without). The tires are your suspension.
If there are no shocks, it's possible to hit a series of bumps at the
right speed to start a resonance in your suspension. Without sufficient
damping you can literally go end-over-end. I've seen it happen.
Can you give us some more detailed description? Pictures maybe?
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Peter,
Perhaps we cant agree that it can be done, but surely we can agree that it
would be beneficial ?
Garry Stanley
Cable.net.nz
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Victor,
Lets clear this up, if I really was advocating rewinding a fridge motor then
I would have simply removed one from my dead fridge in the back yard and
taken it to the rewinders and paid a few hundred to have it rewound.
Instead I have several traction motors designed and built for the job, im
simply changing the job they were doing.
I'm going to try and keep this simple, so for this reason we will use a
magnet and a coil and a meter.
Connect the meter to the coil and then move the magnet to the coil, then
move it away from the coil.
What you will find is called back emf, indirectly, it is not actually back
emf you are seeing, but it is the current flow that is responsible for the
back emf, which is actually the magnetic field which results from that
current flow.
This is a/v out, but you are only reading the v part of it.
As Lee says in an open circuit the magnet will pass the coil with no
resistance at all and there will be no losses but of course due to the width
of brushes in an electric motor there is a closed circuit for the entire 360
degrees of rotation.
Lenz, being a smart guy for his time noted that no matter what direction the
magnet approaches from the magnetic field it creates is always resisting the
magnets movement, either to or from the coil.
Now if the magnet is a north pole approaching the coil and the coil resists
it approaching, then the coil is making a north pole as the magnet
approaches and if you did the test at the beginning you will know the
current changes direction as the magnet leaves creating a south pole.
You will also know that the faster the magnet arrives and leaves the more
current flows and so the stronger the magnetic field is.
So when you look at your ev motor that doesn't have magnets, it still has
coils creating the same magnetic fields, except now you have current flowing
opposite the direction that is required, both in the stator and the rotor.
Now we can use the simple water analogy, if you have a pump pumping 8 pounds
in one direction and another pumping 12 pounds in the other direction into
the same hose, the math's is simple only 4 pounds of water pressure gets
past the 8 pound pump.
Hope this was worth the read.
Garry Stanley
Cable.net.nz
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.zapworld.com/rapcars.htm
Offering pre-owned Sparrows, Force, conversions, nEVs, scooters.
It sort of says to contact them to sell your EV through them
(like a broker?).
Has anyone used their service?
=====
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'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Peter,
"Back EMF is NOT a loss. All Back EMF does is limit how much current the
motor draws. Without Back EMF a typical EV motor would draw thousands
of Amps all of the time."
I think if you changed your interpretation of this to back emf and its
associated current limit the amount of input power that can be converted to
shaft output, you will be on a better track.
"One more time Back EMF is NOT a loss. It doesn't figure into motor
losses at any point. It is simply a function of how motors work."
Good sales pitch, bad science, see the post in this group in reply to victor
by me prior to this one.
"Windage losses go up as the square of the RPM, this can be a significant
portion of your losses."
Aren't you confusing windage losses in a motor with aerodynamic losses of a
vehicle at speed here ?
Thanx for the other comments ...never hurts to learn a little.
Garry Stanley
Cable.net.nz
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi George,
If the load allows the motor to turn, then the conductors on the armature
move thru the flux provided by the magnetic field. If the load is driven
by the motor torque (instead of some bigger motor on the other end), then
as the armature rotates, conductors cut the magnetic flux and a voltage
is generated in the armature conductors which lessens the current. This
is called back EMF.
This explains it nicely "a voltage is generated in the armature conductors
which lessens the current".
The current is what is doing the work and a motor is about work, so why
would you want to reduce the current ?
Eventually the load will stop the motor from doing more work as it equals
the input so why do motors internally self regulate the amount of work
output for a given input ?
Torque may not increase with rpm but horsepower sure does.
Garry Stanley
Cable.net.nz
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Lee,
"More specifically, it is the VOLTAGE generated across a coil when it
moves in a magnetic field."
You are spot on here but I suspect for the wrong reason, back emf is the
magnetic resistance to rotation caused by the current movement in a wire.
"EMF is FORCE, not power. If the current is zero, the power is zero. So
an open-circuited coil moving in a magnetic field generates a voltage
(EMF), but it generates no power and does no work. You will find you can
move this coil freely in the magnetic field; it does not resist movement
any more than a block of wood."
This is also spot on but if you check your motor you will find you have a
closed circuit to the battery for 360 degrees of rotation so it doesn't
apply to a motor.
"The direction of current flow determines whether the coil is producing
energy, or consuming energy"
Spot on, but if ive laid this out properly, you will know that current is in
fact traveling in both directions in the coil and it is only that the
current in, is exceeding the current out, that causes the device to be a
motor not a generator.
Garry Stanley
Cable.net.nz
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Mike,
Please leave me off the regular list.
I am only interested in something new and radically different such as a
flywheel or supercapacitor assisted lead acid EV or an EV using Bipolar
or Tripolar batteries of any kind. Normal Hybrids and fuel cell
powered cars are of no interest to me. Thanks.
Menlo Park III,
Bill Glickman
On Wed, 19 Mar 2003 11:05:35 -0500 M Bianchi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
writes:
> Subject: 2003 Tour de Sol Reports begin shortly ...
>
> Hi! Another year has passed and I am getting ready to crank up the
> 2003 edition of the Tour de Sol Reports. You are on my list from
> last
> year (e-mail address [EMAIL PROTECTED] ).
>
> If you wish to be on the direct-feed (these e-mails sent to
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) then you are all set.
>
> If you would like a change, reply to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and
> I'll adjust the list as you wish.
>
> Exactly the same text will be available at:
> http://www.AutoAud.com/Tour_de_Sol_Reports
>
> The official information about the Tour de Sol is at:
> http://www.TourdeSol.com
>
>
> --
> Mike Bianchi
> Foveal Systems
> 190 Loantaka Way
> Madison NJ 07940-1910
>
> +1 973 822-2085 Voice and Fax
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> The Tour de Sol Reports are sponsored again this year by the
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--- Begin Message ---
I have the ADC 8" out in the open. It seems to spin freely. A2 & S2 are
shunted together normally. A1 is positive and S1 is negative. With a
multimeter what resistance values would I look for in a normal motor at rest
and while spinning by hand . What values from connection to connection.
Can I hook up a batterycharger and spin a non loaded motor with it?
Lawrence Rhodes........
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>
> "Ok, an electric conversion, what voltage is it?
> And what range ?"
This is where you say the 9" adc motor is 28 hp ,,,not I'm putting 2000amp
with 336 volts and tire spinning is a problem . I wonder if this was for
NEV's . It would be nice to be able to slip some conversions into the NEV
insurance plan .
> Yikes! An insurance company that knows electric cars
> exist, and that they aren't all milkfloats?? Cool!
> What's even better is, she **didn't** ask what current
> the controller can put out. So they have no idea
> whether my pickup's got a wimpy Curtis with 40kW of power
> ( which it has got :-( ), or whether it's got a
> monster high-current controller like a Zilla!
> But I'm sure the forms I'll have to fill out will ask
> how much power the vehicle has...
>
> So, I got a quote for a limited mileage policy, the
> cost's not too bad, considering there's no no-claims
> discount that I can use ( it'll all be used up on
> insuring either my Smartie, or a Supra )
>
> It'll be interesting to see if other specialist
> insurers are this clued-up, as I ask around for quotes...
>
> to be continued.....
>
>
> Richard Bebbington
>
> Electric Mini pickup
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "David (Battery Boy)
There is an s-10 up the street form me with a blown motor that I am paying
for with grass mowing right now. I've been using my 83 ford ranger EV for a
long time and it's a bit raggy , leaks when it rains bad , but its like an
old friend , . anyway I read your stuff with intrest , .
Steve Clunn,,,, wet when it rains
> I waste bandwidth talking about all the problems with S10's (and other
> "American made" light duty trucks/cars)? Other than one off-list e-mail,
> nobody else asked about the particulars. And, do you just want to know
> about chassis and body problems as they relate to a conversion, because I
> can also talk about the ICE and related component problems, as I'm trying
> to keep a '92 gasser on the road?! On the other hand, we could talk about
> the politics of why people buy vehicles from the big three, thinking
> they're "Made In The U.S.A.". My S10's were assembled in Canada, using
> components that could have been built by sweat-shop labor in GM factories
> just over the Mexican border! Maybe I should have converted a Toyota,
which
> I've heard have a very good maintenance record, but I'm wondering if they
> are sweat-shop labor free.
>
> Snow bound lately,
> Dave (B.B.) Hawkins
> Executive VP of the Denver Electric Vehicle Council
> (With an emphasis on youth education)
> http://www.devc.org/
> Lyons, CO
> 1979 Mazda RX-7 EV (192V of YT's, for the 16 year-old son!)
> 1989 Chevy S10 Ext. Cab (144V of floodies, for Ma and Pa only!)
>
>
> >From: "Thomas Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 16:16:38 -0800
> >
> >It sounds like you believe that something or several things are seriously
> >wrong
> >with S-10s. Please tell us what the problem or problems are. If we are
> >going
> >to take your comments seriously, we need to know why.
> >
> >Tom Shay
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "David (Battery Boy) Hawkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: "EV Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 12:39 PM
> >Subject: Re: pick-up truck dimensions?
> >
> >
> >> Jim and All,
> >> Having converted an S10, I agree with Alan and his list of reasons to
use
> >> an S10 (pre '94) instead of a Ranger or Asian truck for a conversion:
both
> >> rear shocks are aft mounted, frame rails are wide, drive shaft is
> >centered.
> >> However, you need to realize that the S10 is a piece of sh*%, and in
the
> >> words of people like Bill Dube, if you start with a gas piece of sh$@,
> >> $6000+ and 100-200 hours later, you'll end up with an electric piece of
> >> sh!&. I do know that new and used S10 parts are cheap and plentiful,
but
> >> again, you get what you pay for! Instead of using an S10, some people
have
> >> made suspension modifications on one of the other truck brands, and
might
> >> have ended up with a better chassis and body. After all, you'll be
living
> >> with your conversion for a while. Maybe the '94 and newer S10's are
> >better,
> >> and someone else can chime in and tell us.
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I meant to post this for a long time, but I just didn't get a chance to.
The real reason why GM, Toyota, Ford, Chrysler, etc. pulled their plugs on
EVs is: They can't make (or make as much) money selling them. If they could
make as much money selling EVs as they do selling SUVs, all of them would
jump it. Well, we could argue to death it is the economy of scale, but, all
they care is the bottom line at the end of the quarter. This is how most
(if not all) companies run. Money talks in corporations.
I often think about EV companies that failed over the years. Guess what?
They ran out of money. If they don't make money, they are forced to close
the door.
Then, I think about how a company could make money in this EV business.
And, the only conclusion I could draw is they have to get a large profit
margin. This way, they survive to do further research and development.
And, one day, they might just have enough money to deal with the "economy of
scale". Rich, Otmar, Lee, and others might agree with me on this. Let the
early adopters (us?) pay a premium price for a good product in low volume
production. Only if the companies stay in business and make money for a few
years, we could hope for higher volume production.
Sometimes, I think of small used ICE car dealers. They make some money and
survive. But, with all these free websites providing free used EV postings,
how is a company going to make money from selling used EVs? May be we
should let ZAP and others make some money so that they stay in business to
move us forward. If they fix these things and resell them in working order,
we could see more EVs on the road. At least, a lot of members on this list
would just buy one from them instead of converting or fixing their own.
Let's face it. If you ain't making money, you are out of here. May be I am
way off on this. But, I doubt it.
Ed Ang
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Bruce EVangel Parmenter
> Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 3:30 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: ZAP RAP FEVER: page to sell or trade your EV
>
>
> http://www.zapworld.com/rapcars.htm
> Offering pre-owned Sparrows, Force, conversions, nEVs, scooters.
> It sort of says to contact them to sell your EV through them
> (like a broker?).
>
> Has anyone used their service?
>
>
>
>
> =====
> ' ____
> ~/__|o\__
> '@----- @'---(=
> http://geocities.com/brucedp/
> EV List Editor & RE newswires
> (originator of the above ASCII art)
> =====
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
> http://platinum.yahoo.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Usually you cant "make" money on EV having in the beginning nothing
but good intentions. You need a large up front investment or grant
to sustain the business even if operates at loss for few years,
so the volume goes up no matter what. By the time you run of invested
money you should make your own money to survive (hundreds EVs on
the road) and pay back.
Talk to Gates or Oprah.
Their pocket change *could* change the future of EV business,
if they would only care...
Victor
Edward Ang wrote:
>
> I meant to post this for a long time, but I just didn't get a chance to.
>
> The real reason why GM, Toyota, Ford, Chrysler, etc. pulled their plugs on
> EVs is: They can't make (or make as much) money selling them. If they could
> make as much money selling EVs as they do selling SUVs, all of them would
> jump it. Well, we could argue to death it is the economy of scale, but, all
> they care is the bottom line at the end of the quarter. This is how most
> (if not all) companies run. Money talks in corporations.
>
> I often think about EV companies that failed over the years. Guess what?
> They ran out of money. If they don't make money, they are forced to close
> the door.
>
> Then, I think about how a company could make money in this EV business.
> And, the only conclusion I could draw is they have to get a large profit
> margin. This way, they survive to do further research and development.
> And, one day, they might just have enough money to deal with the "economy of
> scale". Rich, Otmar, Lee, and others might agree with me on this. Let the
> early adopters (us?) pay a premium price for a good product in low volume
> production. Only if the companies stay in business and make money for a few
> years, we could hope for higher volume production.
>
> Sometimes, I think of small used ICE car dealers. They make some money and
> survive. But, with all these free websites providing free used EV postings,
> how is a company going to make money from selling used EVs? May be we
> should let ZAP and others make some money so that they stay in business to
> move us forward. If they fix these things and resell them in working order,
> we could see more EVs on the road. At least, a lot of members on this list
> would just buy one from them instead of converting or fixing their own.
>
> Let's face it. If you ain't making money, you are out of here. May be I am
> way off on this. But, I doubt it.
>
> Ed Ang
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Behalf Of Bruce EVangel Parmenter
> > Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 3:30 PM
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: ZAP RAP FEVER: page to sell or trade your EV
> >
> >
> > http://www.zapworld.com/rapcars.htm
> > Offering pre-owned Sparrows, Force, conversions, nEVs, scooters.
> > It sort of says to contact them to sell your EV through them
> > (like a broker?).
> >
> > Has anyone used their service?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > =====
> > ' ____
> > ~/__|o\__
> > '@----- @'---(=
> > http://geocities.com/brucedp/
> > EV List Editor & RE newswires
> > (originator of the above ASCII art)
> > =====
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
> > http://platinum.yahoo.com
> >
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The fuse on the sense line to the controller was blown. Let's hope.
Lawrence Rhodes.....
> I went up a hill I almost stall on everytime with an extra 350 pounds. I
> stalled and tried to feather the clutch and something stopped working. I
> had to back down the hill. The big 400 amp fuse is good. I smell
something
> burnt coming up from the motor...sobbbbbbbb..... Gotta jack it up and
test
> the motor.l..What could it be.....????Lawrence Gotta drive an ice to work
> sob.....Rhodes.........
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(BYD pushing ahead with plans into building electric cars)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/mar2003/tc20030311_8873_tc058.htm
MARCH 11, 2003 ONLINE ASIA
By Bruce Einhorn [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Einhorn is a Hong Kong-based correspondent for BusinessWeek
China's Dueling High-Tech Deltas
Shanghai's Yangtze River Delta has lots of big corporate
names. But Hong Kong's Pearl River region may have an edge
in its go-go culture
[...]
BYD is China's leading manufacturer of rechargeable
batteries for cell phones. This Shenzhen-based
private-sector company is listed in Hong Kong and is pushing
ahead with a risky plan to diversify into building electric
cars.
[...]
[more http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=BYD+battery+electric+car ]
-
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
http://platinum.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EVLN($Lm3.2m invested in Malta EV for Euro/African markets)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.businesstimes.com.mt/2003/03/19/l1.html
Electric vehicle production to begin in Malta - Lm3.2m
invested, 500 new jobs expected in five years
In what Economic Services Minister Josef Bonnici described
as "an innovative new venture that will seek to develop and
tap new technology", Innovative Transport Systems Malta Ltd
yesterday inaugurated its operations at the Mosta
Technopark, where it will undertake research and development
activities on the production of electric-powered vehicles.
Finance Minister John Dalli was also present for the
launch.
The German firm has made an investment of approximately
Lm3.2 million, which is expected to rise further upon
expansion of production. Production numbers, meanwhile, are
expected to reach some 15,000 units per year by 2008.
In addition to the Technopark facility, another site,
comprising a large factory at Hal Far, has been earmarked by
the Malta Development Corporation for the company�s
production facilities.
Asked yesterday why Malta was chosen for the investment big
investment, ITS Chairman Neville Chamberlain commented that
there were various reasons including the fact that the
Maltese workforce is multilingual, highly skilled, educated,
and perhaps most important of all, flexible.
"Crucial is also the fact that Malta was an EU applicant
until last week and is now expected to join the Union later
next year. This greatly enhances funding opportunities in
order for research and development to be carried out on the
island," he explains.
He adds, "According to research conducted prior to
considering Malta as our production base, we have come
across an excellent report on the production levels achieved
by Maltese workers compared to European ones. Moreover,
there are more university graduates on a pro rata basis,
than in many other competitor countries.�
He also insisted that Malta offers easy access to all
markets due to its advanced infrastructure and air/shipping
connections and is an ideal base to penetrate both European
as well as the North African markets and beyond.
The vehicle to be produced is the �Innovan�, which is
engineered to specifically address the requirements of niche
markets mainly in Europe. The promoters are confident that
vehicle will be sold in metropolitan cities, where the
authorities are actively demanding and mandating clean air
transportation services.
Speaking at yesterday�s launch, Profs. Bonnici applauded the
fact that ITS will produce electric vehicles in Malta. He
explains, "We have all become more conscious about the
threat, to the environment and to our health, from vehicle
emissions as traffic has continued to increase.
"Wearing one of my other hats, as the Minister responsible
for Enemalta, I am proud to have been involved in the
decisions to phase out leaded petrol and to switch over to a
more environmentally friendly type of diesel, with a much
lower sulphur content.
"I am convinced this project will provide our manufacturing
sector with yet another tangible and concrete success story
that will provide the best advertisement for the future
development of our manufacturing sector. Government is
convinced that manufacturing is destined to remain one of
the pillars of the Maltese economy and we are confident
that, with the additional opportunities that will be borne
out of EU membership, it can realistically aspire to further
employment opportunities and stronger growth prospects."
Copyright � Network Publications Malta. Editor: Saviour
Balzan The Business Times, Network House, Vjal ir-Rihan San
Gwann SGN 07, Malta Tel: (356) 21382741-3, 21382745-6 | Fax:
(356) 21385075 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-
=====
' ____
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'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
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--- End Message ---
