EV Digest 2666
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: getting OT, Segway
by "Crabb, David" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Non-profit would never fly (was RE: ZAP RAP FEVER: page to sell or trade your
EV)
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Advice: drum to disk rear brakes for Civicwithacord
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Sob... I think if fried my motor.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: ZAP RAP FEVER: page to sell or trade your EV
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: ADC 8" testing
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Sob... I think if fried my motor.
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: ZAP RAP FEVER: page to sell or trade your EV
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: ZAP RAP FEVER: page to sell or trade your EV
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Was: Advice: drum to disk brakes, now update Civicwithacord
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) TEVan charger schematic
by "Rod Hower" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Motor, surprise!
by "garry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Motor, surprise!
by "garry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Motor, surprise!
by "garry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Motor, surprise!
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Motor, surprise!
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Motor, surprise!
by "garry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Motor, surprise!
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Got the amps not the ???
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Anyone know of anyone who can fix Curtis Controllers?
by Lee Workman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Got the amps not the ???
by "garry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Sob... I think if fried my motor.
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: Fridge based energy sources
by "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Anyone know of anyone who can fix Curtis Controllers?
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Charging regulators.... (medium to long)
by "Rick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
The statement was "what can he do on the seqway that a bike wouldnt be a
good substitute"..
not.. "what is the best EV alternative to a bike."
segway vs scooter has been well debated.. no need to go into it.
:)
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Peter VanDerWal [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Friday, March 21, 2003 11:31 AM
> To: EV
> Subject: RE: getting OT, Segway
>
>
> Standard electric scooters can be equally useful, lighter, and a whole
> lot cheaper.
>
> On Fri, 2003-03-21 at 08:32, Crabb, David wrote:
> > Not everyone can ride bikes.
> > Some are not able to bend over well.. some have knees that
> are not conducive
> > to repeated
> > bending.
> >
> > This, however could be a good argument about using the
> segway on the way to
> > the gym..
> > provided you don't suffer the above maladies and are just
> going to work the
> > upper body
> > /swim, etc
> >
> >
> > this vehicle can't be everything to everyone.
> >
> > perhaps there are not many, but people with one foot
> certainly might find it
> > useful..
> > and may draw smiles versus stares if they are in a wheelchair.
> >
> >
> >
> > Andrew King wrote:
> >
> > > Joseph
> > > I guess I'm still not seeing what I could do on a Segway that
> > > I couldn't
> > > do on my old 10 speed.
> >
> >
> --
> EVDL
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 21 Mar 2003 at 16:42, David Roden (Akron OH USA) wrote:
> Your argument is correct for the rather obvious case that a for-profit
> company can't build a product that doesn't turn a profit.
Actually, I should amend this. A for-profit company CAN build a product
that doesn't turn a profit. It's done all the time, for many reasons:
- To positively affect the company's image (positioning).
- Because they believe that it ^will^ eventually generate profit.
- Even (gasp) because they believe it serves the public good.
(This last is, alas, pretty rare these days.)
Though it's now reportedly profitable, the initial sales of Toyota Prius
provide a good example of the first and second reasons above. It might even
embody some elements of the third reason. I'd like to think so.
What I should have said in the previous post is that a for-profit company
has to be able to show a profit ^across its entire product line^.
Similarly, a nonprofit has to have positive revenue flow ^across its entire
product line.^ But either one ^can^ produce some limited number of products
that lose money or generate negative revenue flow, if they choose to do so.
I should also have noted that "positive revenue flow" is not the same thing
as "profit," and "negative revenue flow" is not the same thing as "loss."
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Bath" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 9:46 PM
Subject: Advice: drum to disk rear brakes for Civicwithacord
> Hi All,
> Just got my e-meter wired (well, on the one end)
> into the dash,
I have blown more e-meters than I can remember . I now have them on a plug
and when ever I do anything I first unplug the e-meter . one of thoses wires
tuches the frame or the pack gets split betwen the bat on the sunt and the
the next one in line
. set up a plug as when you change your batteries you'll want to unplug it
then.
and am contemplating beefing up the
> rear brakes to handle that extra lead, at least
> knowing that disk is better than drum!
drum brakes don't rub as much ,
> There is a dead Civic at the salvage yard near me,
> and the caliper assy. and rotors are still intact.
> I'm contemplating pulling them off, and using them.
> My rig is originally a DX, which means drum in the
> back. If my (limited) knowledge serves me right, the
> master cylinder proportionally makes the front do most
> of the stopping. Ok-- cut to chase, Bob...
> 1) Any ideas if the rear calipers are just the same
> as the front? (Haven't checked the Helm manual yet,
> sorry).
> 2) Is there anything major that would need to be done
> to make the changeover that I am just too clueless on?
> Appreciatively,
you may already have the best .
Did you say what controller,batts and motor your are using ? I like these
updates speaking of witch How is the 3 motor giea monster doing?
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
> http://platinum.yahoo.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well I took the batteries off the top of the motor and hooked up a battery
charger. 2amps it went 10 amps faster and 50 amps faster yet. It probably
isn't the motor. I checked further and found the fuse blown in the Curtis
voltage sense line. I replace the fuse and put it back together. Nothing.
I now think the Curtis is blown. I get 1800 ohms across B+ & B-. Dead
short between B- and M-. 5v aprox. between M- and B+. A2 isn't hooked up.
I was in first gear going up a steep San Francisco hill. The car is 3200
pounds I am 250. Four 5th graders Probably 400 pounds maybe more. That is
close to 3900 pounds. I have gone up this hill many times and always almost
stall. This must have been the straw. Is there any way to test the Curtis
static and under power? Thanks for any help and I wonder how that little
1000 amp controller would work in my Aspire. Is the Curtis worth rebuilding
and does anyone soup them up. Lawrence Rhodes..........
----- Original Message -----
From: "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 8:18 PM
Subject: Re: Sob... I think if fried my motor.
> bummer ... what gear were you in? Hope its just a cable bruned off.
what
> motor do you have??
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 7:25 AM
> Subject: Sob... I think if fried my motor.
>
>
> > I went up a hill I almost stall on everytime with an extra 350 pounds.
I
> > stalled and tried to feather the clutch and something stopped working.
I
> > had to back down the hill. The big 400 amp fuse is good. I smell
> something
> > burnt coming up from the motor...sobbbbbbbb..... Gotta jack it up and
> test
> > the motor.l..What could it be.....????Lawrence Gotta drive an ice to
work
> > sob.....Rhodes.........
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey. I saw my old electric bug. I had heard one of the big bosses there
had gotten it. They put purple fenders on it. Lawrence
Rhodes..............
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 7:29 PM
Subject: Re: ZAP RAP FEVER: page to sell or trade your EV
>
>
> Bruce EVangel Parmenter wrote:
> ---------------------------------
> http://www.zapworld.com/rapcars.htm
> Offering pre-owned Sparrows, Force, conversions, nEVs, scooters.
> It sort of says to contact them to sell your EV through them
> (like a broker?).
>
> Has anyone used their service?
> ---------------------------------
>
> After buying and selling many, many vehicles over the years, I _never_
call
> on an ad that doesn't list an asking price. With rare exceptions, people
who
> do not list a price think their *stuff* don't stink and is always too high
> priced.
>
> Not one vehicle at this site/page has an asking price, even the
conversions.
>
> Buyer beware!
>
> IMHO
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Roy LeMeur Seattle WA
>
> My Electric Vehicle Pages:
> http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
>
> Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
> http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*.
> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I tried it and 2/10/ 50 amps all worked from slow to fast. Doesn't seem to
be the motor. On to the controller. Lawrence Rhodes....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 9:33 PM
Subject: Re: ADC 8" testing
> Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> >
> > I have the ADC 8" out in the open. It seems to spin freely. A2 & S2
are
> > shunted together normally. A1 is positive and S1 is negative. With a
> > multimeter what resistance values would I look for in a normal motor at
rest
> > and while spinning by hand . What values from connection to connection.
> > Can I hook up a batterycharger and spin a non loaded motor with it?
> > Lawrence Rhodes........
>
> Sure. It will take 20-30 amps though. A 10-amp charger will probably
> trip its circuit breaker.
> --
> Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
> Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 21 Mar 2003 at 15:17, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> Is there any way to test the Curtis static and
> under power?
The classic test is to replace the motor with a 100 watt light bulb.
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Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Size is what counts. I agree that with a big pack that is true. But with a
very small & efficient two seat car and a very light pack it might be
possible. I have seen pictures. It is small. Can't imagine it has more
than 250 pounds of batteries. I'm just guessing though. Lawrence Rhodes...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 9:09 PM
Subject: Re: ZAP RAP FEVER: page to sell or trade your EV
> I was recently contacted by Zap. They wanted to buy our Street Rod
> with stock that the sales person said would be skyrocketing because
> they have a new battery that the government wants but they won't sell
> them the technology. This salesperson then told me that this battery
> would take a car over 250 miles on a charge and could be charged
> fully in an hour. First I tried to explain to him the feasability of
> replacing this much energy so quickly and how much energy it takes to
> move a vehicle down the road. I finally gave up trying to educate a
> salesperson who may or may not have graduated from grade school. I
> further told him, and I quote. "There is no way in hell that I would
> take your stock for this car" Don't they know that we know who they
> are.
>
> Roderick
>
>
>
> >Bruce EVangel Parmenter wrote:
> >---------------------------------
> >http://www.zapworld.com/rapcars.htm
> >Offering pre-owned Sparrows, Force, conversions, nEVs, scooters.
> >It sort of says to contact them to sell your EV through them
> >(like a broker?).
> >
> >Has anyone used their service?
> >---------------------------------
> >
> >After buying and selling many, many vehicles over the years, I
> >_never_ call on an ad that doesn't list an asking price. With rare
> >exceptions, people who do not list a price think their *stuff* don't
> >stink and is always too high priced.
> >
> >Not one vehicle at this site/page has an asking price, even the
conversions.
> >
> >Buyer beware!
> >
> >IMHO
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Roy LeMeur Seattle WA
> >
> >My Electric Vehicle Pages:
> >http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
> >
> >Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
> >http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >_________________________________________________________________
> >MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*.
> >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
>
>
> --
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mr. Wilde you crack me up. I saw what I think is my old VW bug. All the
components are good. The rust in the pan could be fixed by replacing the
pan. If the pan has been replaced it would be a good buy because it has a
56 body on it. If not buyer beware. It weighs 100 pounds less than
Waylands Blue car and has a little more battery weight. Hmmm. With the
right controller it would move. It has a 1221 now. Lawrence Rhodes....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 9:09 PM
Subject: Re: ZAP RAP FEVER: page to sell or trade your EV
> I was recently contacted by Zap. They wanted to buy our Street Rod
> with stock that the sales person said would be skyrocketing because
> they have a new battery that the government wants but they won't sell
> them the technology. This salesperson then told me that this battery
> would take a car over 250 miles on a charge and could be charged
> fully in an hour. First I tried to explain to him the feasability of
> replacing this much energy so quickly and how much energy it takes to
> move a vehicle down the road. I finally gave up trying to educate a
> salesperson who may or may not have graduated from grade school. I
> further told him, and I quote. "There is no way in hell that I would
> take your stock for this car" Don't they know that we know who they
> are.
>
> Roderick
>
>
>
> >Bruce EVangel Parmenter wrote:
> >---------------------------------
> >http://www.zapworld.com/rapcars.htm
> >Offering pre-owned Sparrows, Force, conversions, nEVs, scooters.
> >It sort of says to contact them to sell your EV through them
> >(like a broker?).
> >
> >Has anyone used their service?
> >---------------------------------
> >
> >After buying and selling many, many vehicles over the years, I
> >_never_ call on an ad that doesn't list an asking price. With rare
> >exceptions, people who do not list a price think their *stuff* don't
> >stink and is always too high priced.
> >
> >Not one vehicle at this site/page has an asking price, even the
conversions.
> >
> >Buyer beware!
> >
> >IMHO
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Roy LeMeur Seattle WA
> >
> >My Electric Vehicle Pages:
> >http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
> >
> >Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
> >http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >_________________________________________________________________
> >MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*.
> >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
>
>
> --
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Did you say what controller,batts and motor your are
> using ? I like these
> updates speaking of witch How is the 3 motor giea
> monster doing?
DCP controller; got it before Damon stopped
(temporarily) making them. DCDC also DCP if I can get
one! 8" ADC series wound motor, and 18, yes, 18 USGC8V.
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
http://platinum.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I posted some scanned schematics of the TEVan
battery charger control card.
http://www.qsl.net/w8rnh/battchgr.pdf
This is 1 Mb and may be somewhat difficult to see all
component values.
http://www.qsl.net/w8rnh/batchgr.pdf
This schematic is more detailed with all components
easy to see.
Rod
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Andre,
Thanx for making me think a bit more about that.
You are right, electrons only flow in one direction and this would mean that
electron flow from the charger is opposite that of electron flow of the
battery even though the like terminals are connected.
Garry Stanley
Cable.net.nz
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Peter,
"Back EMF is the voltage created in a motor by the coils (which also
happen to be energized by the applied voltage) moving through the
magnetic field. This created voltage is in opposition to the applied
voltage.
The issue here is that in order for a motor to work you need a magnetic
field and an energized coil that pushes against that field. In order
for the motor to be useful it must turn, this turning means that our
energized coil must move through the magnetic field correct?? (hint the
answer is YES)
Whether it is energized or not, when you move a coil through a magnetic
field it creates a voltage, called back EMF. It is impossible to move
our coil through a magnetic field without creating this voltage "
I see from this that we both seem to understand the action / reaction
scenario of this equation, even if we are using different words to describe
it.
"Huh? There is back EMF in a motor that is turning (assuming at least a
residual magnetic field) whether there is closed circuit or not.
I often have power applied to my motor when there is no closed circuit.
It's called coasting, I let my foot off the throttle and the motor
contactor opens. The power in this case is being applied to the motor
via the wheels and transmission."
Your version of reality and mine seem to differ here, even though there is
surely going to be a residual magnetic field in all motors when power is
removed they do not generate unless they have a closed circuit.
"Again Huh? At any case you are wrong. People have built motors (with
back EMF) that run close to 98% efficient, how exactly are you going to
get more power out than that? The 2% is going up in friction and
windage losses and a tiny bit in magnetic losses."
About 50 odd years ago, maybe more a device was invented that produced more
than 100% efficiency, this caused a bit of an uproar in the scientific world
because "you just cant do it".
The problem was that not only could you do it,but anyone who put in a little
effort into making one could do it, so what do you do when reality proves
that theory is wrong, you simply remodel reality and suddenly we have COP.
Now if a heat pump and a fridge and a air conditioner can produce more than
100% efficiency why exactly do you stand fast to 100% efficiency being the "
be all and end all" of a motors output ability.
What is wrong with a motor that is 98% efficient ....nothing, but the method
of determining its efficiency is surely in question because we already know
its wrong.
Lee clearly understands how to make a motor with no back emf and he has all
the right terminology to go with it, so I know you could grasp this if you
tried.
To cover your other universe posts here let me just say that a piece of
paper has only 2 dimensions while a motor has 3, and as long as you think in
2 dimensions you will not be able to see this for what it is, and it may
turn out to be nothing, but I will know for sure and you will always be
hoping that the guy who wrote the book really knew, not just what he was
taking about, but all there was to know, because that guy 150 years ago sure
didn't have the technology we have today and if he was that smart back then
just imagine what he might figure out today.
The books you learn from and rely on are very good, but they are only as
accurate as their last update, which by your own admission (I think) was 150
years ago.
Garry Stanley
Cable.net.nz
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi People,
I have to say I was wrong about the battery and charger scenario I posted
earlier, this was not intended to confuse anyone it was only me who was
confused and I would like to apologize for my ignorance.
Victor, I think I have the answer to your "other universe", even though I
wasn't going to reply to it directly.
I know that assuming just makes an ass out of u and me, but humor me here
and reapply your math's please.
What I would like you to do is "assume" that I am correct and that the motor
will spin, but without any magnetic or electrical resistance ( im not sure
here, but I think this means you cant use ohms law to define it, cause
resistance is resistance and your back emf is increasing the electrical
resistance and this is why your motor winds down to only pulling 15 amps
while mine can still pull 100 ).
We could of course run it in a vacuum and with magnetic bearings to reduce
friction, but that's another level of development.
So please tell me using your math's skills what the input of a standard
motor will be relative to its shaft output and what my scenario will be.
The way I see it using your numbers the shaft output of mine, assuming I can
make it spin, will always be 100 amps times input voltage minus frictional
losses, while your motor will fall to a 15 amp draw limiting its output to
15 amps times input voltage minus losses.
So instead of just letting it run to destruction because of too many rpm,
lets feather it by means of say PWM and calculate the on time for my motor
to achieve the same shaft output as your standard motor.
There is a good chance that you can show the on time of my motor and its
draw to be the same as the draw for your standard motor, but I doubt it
cause there is no electrical resistance or magnetic resistance in my design,
so it isn't likely to match, unless Lee is right and all standard motors are
made this way, but again if they were, we wouldn't need to argue the
advantages and disadvantages of back EMF, because it wouldn't exist in a
motor.
Again, No offence meant here and im not trying to confuse anyone, I really
believe I have something of value to contribute with this if we can just get
past the "you cant get better than 98% barrier".
Garry Stanley
Cable.net.nz
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Now that that's over How is you project comming alone . It sounded like you
got some parts to work with , fork lift motor ect .
I sure learned alot about motors.
----- Original Message -----
From: "garry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, March 21, 2003 6:53 PM
Subject: Re: Motor, surprise!
> Hi Andre,
>
> Thanx for making me think a bit more about that.
>
> You are right, electrons only flow in one direction and this would mean
that
> electron flow from the charger is opposite that of electron flow of the
> battery even though the like terminals are connected.
>
> Garry Stanley
>
> Cable.net.nz
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Your version of reality and mine seem to differ here, even though there is
> surely going to be a residual magnetic field in all motors when power is
> removed they do not generate unless they have a closed circuit.
They generate back EMF, however without a closed circuit no current
flows. So granted power is not being generated, but voltage certainly
is being generated.
> About 50 odd years ago, maybe more a device was invented that produced more
> than 100% efficiency, this caused a bit of an uproar in the scientific world
> because "you just cant do it".
Rubish. If such a device actually existed then we would all be using
it. We are not, in fact nobody is.
Making silly statements that can not be backed up by fact won't win ANY
arguments.
>
> The problem was that not only could you do it,but anyone who put in a little
> effort into making one could do it, so what do you do when reality proves
> that theory is wrong, you simply remodel reality and suddenly we have COP.
>
Really? So why haven't you made one? If they are so simple why haven't
I heard of ANYBODY making one? There should be millions of them.
There are in fact several organizations willing to pay millions to
anyone that can prove an over-unity device works, so far nobody has even
applied.
> Now if a heat pump and a fridge and a air conditioner can produce more than
> 100% efficiency why exactly do you stand fast to 100% efficiency being the "
> be all and end all" of a motors output ability.
They are not over 100% efficient. They merely move energy with a total
heat that is more than 100% of the input energy, however they do this by
moving energy not creating it.
They are not even close to 100% efficient at moving energy, otherwise we
wouldn't have the new "Energy efficient" versions coming out.
>
> What is wrong with a motor that is 98% efficient ....nothing, but the method
> of determining its efficiency is surely in question because we already know
> its wrong.
>
ROTFL you mean YOU think they are wrong, however YOU are wrong, not the
rest of the world.
The methods they use are very scientific unlike your guestimations.
> Lee clearly understands how to make a motor with no back emf and he has all
> the right terminology to go with it, so I know you could grasp this if you
> tried.
No Lee does not know how to make one, you misunderstood him. Ask him if
you doubt.
>
> To cover your other universe posts here let me just say that a piece of
> paper has only 2 dimensions while a motor has 3, and as long as you think in
> 2 dimensions you will not be able to see this for what it is, and it may
> turn out to be nothing, but I will know for sure and you will always be
> hoping that the guy who wrote the book really knew, not just what he was
> taking about, but all there was to know, because that guy 150 years ago sure
> didn't have the technology we have today and if he was that smart back then
> just imagine what he might figure out today.
>
> The books you learn from and rely on are very good, but they are only as
> accurate as their last update, which by your own admission (I think) was 150
> years ago.
Now there you go making false assumptions again. I haven't read any
books written 150 years ago, they were all written in the last twenty
years.
I have also performed numerous experiments, but you wouldn't know that
because you are so busy jumping to conclusions.
FWIW Just because something is old doesn't make it wrong.
The laws of thermodynamics have stood for 140 years, so far they have
always, ALWAYS been proven correct.
You on the other hand have so far proven nothing.
It has become clear that you are firmly fixated on your own ideas and
are unwilling to learn. I am not going to bother trying to correct you
any more.
Please feel free to continue your experiments, I'm sure that you (like
all the others before you) will get years of enjoyment out of it (which
is a good thing). That fact that you will never achieve your goals is
immaterial and who knows, perhaps you will figure out something useful.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Steve,
The forklift had a few little unexpected things in it like a series wound
motor instead of shunt and its continuous rated even though I was expecting
it to be less according to the fork lift people.
I ran into a bit of a problem stripping it in that unlike the toer it had 2
controllers and 2 motors, but I didn't expect them to be inter wired, even
though the main wiring is clearly separate there are a group of small wires
going to the main controller that I don't understand the reason for.
Some of these go to things like the horn button which had the Curtis fuel
gauge connected to it as well and without a wiring diagram im a bit
reluctant to just pull it apart and expect it to go once I put it back
together again.
I'm still looking for a small diff with a better ratio so I don't have to
add the friction losses in gearing up the motor 3 to 1 just to have it
changed back in the diff which is 6 to 1 ratio.
Garry Stanley
Cable.net.nz
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Garry Stanley wrote:
> About 50 odd years ago, maybe more a device was invented that
> produced more than 100% efficiency, this caused a bit of an uproar
> in the scientific world because "you just can't do it".
Garry, when you go back 50-150 years, the meters and equipment they had
were less sophisticated than what we have now. There were many cases
where inventors thought they had achieved over 100% efficiency, but it
turned out to be an artifact of their instrumentation.
This was the same situation we discussed earlier with your meters. Cheap
meters give you inaccurate measurements.
One of the great things about science is that if you can break a
scientific law, you get a Nobel prize. But because the rewards are great
(Nobel prizes are worth millions, not to mention the fame), the tests
that need to be made to prove your claim are also great.
You have to describe your work in sufficient detail so others can
duplicate it, and test it for themselves. They're not out to "get" you;
it is the JOB of all good scientists to meticulously check your work,
and try to find any errors, omissions, or alternate explanations for
what you observed.
> Now if a heat pump and a fridge and a air conditioner can produce
> more than 100% efficiency
They don't. COP is not efficiency; it is the "Coefficient of
Performance". A simpler word for it would be the "gain" of the system.
An amplifier takes a small input signal and outputs a much larger
signal. It has gain, but its efficiency is not 100%. The extra energy in
the output came from its power supply.
It's the same with an air conditioner or heat pump. The energy input is
a) what it takes from the AC power line, and b) the heat it takes from
its environment.
> What is wrong with a motor that is 98% efficient... nothing, but
> the method of determining its efficiency is surely in question
> because we already know its wrong.
You *can* have a 98% efficient motor. There are lots of working
examples. It's not easy, and it's expensive to build -- but it is
possible.
> Lee clearly understands how to make a motor with no back emf
I do? Hrmm... The ways I can think of you won't like.
One is that there can be no relative motion between the magnetic field
and the coils; thus no induced voltage. You can still have current
flowing in the coil, though. This creates a motor with torque, but zero
speed. Thus it produces zero horsepower.
Another is with a short-circuited coil. By definition, there can be no
voltage in that coil. Put it in a changing magnetic field. If the coil
were rigid, flux CAN NOT go through it, because the short prevents a
voltage from being induced. So if you force flux thru it, the coil has
to move or change dimensions. If you can arrange it mechanically, the
motion of the coil can be somehow used. An example of this is the
magnetic pulsers the amateur radio satellites use to "pump" themselves
into different earth orbits. They are extracting energy from the earth's
magnetic field and putting it into kinetic energy in the satellite. Note
that the energy they gain is TINY; it takes years to gain a mile of
altitude. Only the fact that they have free solar power and a weightless
zero-friction environment makes it worthwhile.
There are probably some other methods buried in quantum physics; things
that individual atoms can do. But I'm no expert on this.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I live in San Francisco. Famous for hills. I finally met my match. Would
a 600 amp controller be a better choice or what might I have done not to fry
the controller. I always almost stall on this hill anyway. I had about a
hundred more pounds in the car than I had ever had. I also didn't run the
stop sign as fast as I usually do. I was being careful. The 1221C has
worked well so far. I have a fairly heavy vehicle 3200 pounds. What
modifications to the Curtis for abuse or what beefier controller might I get
to replace the Curtis if that might be more cost effective. Lawrence
Rhodes........Wasn't there some beta units out there that might work
well?????
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Everyone,
This is Ivan Lee Workman. I am looking for someone who
can fix my Curtis Controller. Curtis won't touch it
because it was an engineering sample, so I am stuck.
If there is someone who can fix my curtis controller
for me, I would really like to know. I am in Southern
California near Anaheim area. Any info would be great.
Thanks,
Ivan Lee Workman
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
http://platinum.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Lawrence,
If I found myself in your situation where there is just one hill that maybe
only takes a minute or so to get up and my EV couldn't quite do it, but did
everything else flawlessly I would simply add some power for the hill and
nothing more.
I don't know what a car starter motor weighs, but its not much just like its
cost and while it draws heaps, if you only need a boost for 1 hill it might
even be economical to use it.
In a standard EV you could give yourself a boost from your single 12 volt
battery without taking a bit out of your pack and unbalancing them.
Garry Stanley
Cable.net.nz
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What model Curtis controller? Which hill in SF? - if I'm down
there with my EV, maybe I will give it a try sometime... Some of
those hills are downright scary! Gulp!
Chuck Hursch
Larkspur, CA
NBEAA treasurer and webmaster
www.geocities.com/nbeaa
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
----- Original Message -----
From: Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, March 21, 2003 3:17 PM
Subject: Re: Sob... I think if fried my motor.
> Well I took the batteries off the top of the motor and hooked
up a battery
> charger. 2amps it went 10 amps faster and 50 amps faster yet.
It probably
> isn't the motor. I checked further and found the fuse blown in
the Curtis
> voltage sense line. I replace the fuse and put it back
together. Nothing.
> I now think the Curtis is blown. I get 1800 ohms across B+ &
B-. Dead
> short between B- and M-. 5v aprox. between M- and B+. A2
isn't hooked up.
> I was in first gear going up a steep San Francisco hill. The
car is 3200
> pounds I am 250. Four 5th graders Probably 400 pounds maybe
more. That is
> close to 3900 pounds. I have gone up this hill many times and
always almost
> stall. This must have been the straw. Is there any way to
test the Curtis
> static and under power? Thanks for any help and I wonder how
that little
> 1000 amp controller would work in my Aspire. Is the Curtis
worth rebuilding
> and does anyone soup them up. Lawrence Rhodes..........
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 8:18 PM
> Subject: Re: Sob... I think if fried my motor.
>
>
> > bummer ... what gear were you in? Hope its just a cable
bruned off.
> what
> > motor do you have??
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 7:25 AM
> > Subject: Sob... I think if fried my motor.
> >
> >
> > > I went up a hill I almost stall on everytime with an extra
350 pounds.
> I
> > > stalled and tried to feather the clutch and something
stopped working.
> I
> > > had to back down the hill. The big 400 amp fuse is good.
I smell
> > something
> > > burnt coming up from the motor...sobbbbbbbb..... Gotta
jack it up and
> > test
> > > the motor.l..What could it be.....????Lawrence Gotta drive
an ice to
> work
> > > sob.....Rhodes.........
> > >
> >
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
But still you'd have the fundamental problem that we can only extract energy
from a heat differential, not a uniform heat, no matter how hot
it may be.
(At least as far as fridge based energy sources are concerned)
Imagine if we had an alien technology energy extractor that converted heat
into electricity (a bit like solar cells do with light).
We could have a container of liquid or gas that we extracted the heat from,
creating electricity, and a Stirling engine plus generator to create
more electricity as it warmed back up.
It would take the intellect of Douglas Adams to make such a thing
reality, and unfortunately, he is no longer with us.
It actually take energy (electricity) to create the
fridge's temperature differential (colder inside than outside).
Seems weird to put energy into a system (electricity) to pump
even more energy out of it (heat), but that's how it works.
Opening the fridge door lets all that heat energy come rushing
back in, throwing away the temperature differential you have
used electricity to create.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Lee Hart [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, 21 March 2003 4:52 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Motors was Heibao ot
Steve Clunn wrote:
> This rewinding fridge motors has got me thinking. Heat is energy;
> could we pump the heat/energy out of the fridge, spinning that
> motor and powering the house from the fridge>
The principle is sound, but the valves in a refrigerator's compressor
won't let it run backwards as a heat engine (heat difference used to run
the compressor as an air motor). Even if you re-valved it, you'd find
that quite a substantial temperature difference was needed between its
hot and cold sides to run.
There are heat engines more suitable for this. The Stirling engine is
the classic choice.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There is a place in Vegas that fixes and hot rods them. Richard Furniss
posted their contact info here about a month ago. Mostly 48V stuff, but
probably worth a call?
it is :
<paste>-----------
Stan over at Logisystems gave me the ok to give out his e-mail address
[EMAIL PROTECTED] you can contact him with your questions, he is
specializing in High Performance Custom golf carts. Low Voltage!
As for the squeal, good luck ;)
LOGISYSTEMS
5301 W. Oakey Blvd
Las Vegas, NV, 89146
702-498-9047
www.lasvegasev.com
Richard Furniss
Las Vegas, NV
1986 Mazda EX-7 192v
1981 Lectra Centauri 108v
3 Wheel Trail Master 12v
Board Member, www.lveva.org
Las Vegas Electric Vehicle Association
<end paste>-----------
HTH
Seth
Lee Workman wrote:
>
> Hello Everyone,
>
> This is Ivan Lee Workman. I am looking for someone who
> can fix my Curtis Controller. Curtis won't touch it
> because it was an engineering sample, so I am stuck.
> If there is someone who can fix my curtis controller
> for me, I would really like to know. I am in Southern
> California near Anaheim area. Any info would be great.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ivan Lee Workman
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
> http://platinum.yahoo.com
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Folks,
I have some solar panels I want to use to charge my ebike batteries with. I
bought charge controllers that seem a bit off in their performance. The
cut-off voltage for the one I have opened seems to be around 13.2 volts. Way
too low for my instincts regarding proper finish charging voltage for my
SLA/AGM's.
I have regulator circuits galore that are part of various 13.8 volt power
supplies I use in my other hobbies. One is even used to charge (ever so
slowly) the pack on my ebike.
If I were to parrallel the output from teh solar cells into the power supply
circuit, putting the wires across the same connections as the output side of
the transformer, it seems it should work as a charge controller, except it
wouldn't pulse or just "cut off". It would give me a nice trickle charge and
taper for finishing off the charge cycle.
This is assuming that I don't do any of the following;
1. Power up the supply with 110 vAC.
2. Connect too many panels together, which could supply more current than
teh silicon was originally designed to handle, thus burning up biasing
resistors and regulator IC and pass transistors.
I'm also wondering about a toggle switch or safety lock-out relay to
disconnect the high voltage side in case I accidentally ingest idiot juice
before charging, and plug it into a wall outlet and have the power switch in
the on position. That will go into the ~later upgrades~ category. Would
applying DC to the output side of the step-down transformer cause it to
become a huge inductor, and thus short circuit the whole scheme?
Thanks for your analysis.
Regards,
Rick
--- End Message ---
