EV Digest 2669
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: ZAP RAP FEVER: page to sell or trade your EV
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Evercel question
by Chris Weaver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Evercel question
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Motor, surprise!
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Motor, surprise!
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Motor, surprise!
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Motor, surprise!
by "garry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: ZAP RAP FEVER: page to sell or trade your EV
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Motor, surprise!
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: ZAP RAP FEVER: page to sell or trade your EV
by Peter Chast <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Motor, surprise!
by "Dave Davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: ZAP RAP FEVER: page to sell or trade your EV
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Better range from less weight
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Sob... I think if fried my motor.
by John RA Benson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: using duel motors
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Better range from less weight
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Better range from less weight
by "Dave Davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Hybrid Fuels
by Sam Harper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Better range from less weight
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Sob... I think if fried my motor.
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: using duel motors
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Sob... I think if fried my motor.
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I agree that there are too many 'EV trading POST'
wannabee sites. There are 10 on the 'EVs for Sale'
links on http://www.eaaev.org/eaaevsforsale.html
Many have the same ads on each one.
This is not only more work for the person looking for
an EV, it also is more work for the owners of the
pages all having the same ads.
But how are you going to tell the one site to stop
being the redundancy department of redundancy?
They all seem to think they can do it better or
want to offer a service they do not know is already
offered.
Some have no information, so have too much information,
some have old ads that need to be taken down, and some
show ads that are labeled 'sold' (who needs to know
it was sold? The added images just slow the loading
of the page).
But having just one site might not work either.
How many ads are there?
Too many for one webmaster? (people have lives too
you know, and these pages are a free service).
I suggest that North America have no more than four
EV for Sale sites: West, East, Canada & northern states,
and the southern sunbelt states. This would let people
who want to buy an EV near them go to an EV for Sale
site that is.
It is my guess that really only two sites are needed:
West and East coast.
I would like to see some uniformity in the ads, and a
way to allow for the seller's comments as well
(I made the follwing ad up as an example):
[image 250 x 250 pixel .jpg ]
Model Sparrow
Year 1998
Miles 10,000
Battery type, count and age: AGM 13 2years old
Charger: PFC-20
Tire type and age: came with EV, 4 years old, lots of tread.
In running condition (Yes or No): Yes
Price: $12,000 or BO
Location (City and State): Houstan TX
Contact: Luke Hazzard, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 713-530-9860
Comments: I've enjoyed this but now I need to move.
It has a nice radio/CD and a AVCON adaptor
goes with the purchase. Body is in great shape
except for minor scuff from an SUV fight. You
come pick it up, or you ship it yourself.
For more pic see my web site
http://texmex.texasnet.net/greatev/
But no one is going to following this. Its too organized,
and no fun.
-
It's redundant to have yet another EV Tradin' Post, isn't it?
Besides, I would rather have the details of who, where, and
point of contact in regards to the vehicle and ownership,
rather than just a dealer point of contact.
Christian
-
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. EV List Editor & RE newswires
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--- Begin Message ---
I saw on the Evercel site that they say the battery should be upright
during charging. Anyone have any info about whether that is a strict
requirement or just safe guidance? Also, anyone been able to get and use
the SAFT NiMH watercooled batteries?
Thanks,
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris Weaver wrote:
>
> I saw on the Evercel site that they say the battery should be upright
> during charging. Anyone have any info about whether that is a strict
> requirement or just safe guidance? Also, anyone been able to get and use
> the SAFT NiMH watercooled batteries?
>
> Thanks,
> Chris
Keep Evercells withing 60 deg of vertical, the vents need to be up so if
venting happens you vent gas not liquid.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
garry wrote:
>
> Hi Peter,
>
>
> The books you learn from and rely on are very good, but they are only as
> accurate as their last update, which by your own admission (I think) was 150
> years ago.
>
> Garry Stanley
>
> Cable.net.nz
Umm so what's the point of this thread????
And... what has the world learned new in motors and generators in 150
years???
Not much, we've just got better at buidling them. The same general rules
apply. YOU CAN't get somthing from nothing.
Why don't we get back to improving real motors, and helping fellow Evers
to NOT slag down thier motors.
%98 eff is NOT going to happen on a brushed motor, Well not one that
would fit in a road going EV.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
garry wrote:
>
> You can further test this by placing a flat battery in line with a charged
> battery and leaving them over night, the following morning you will have 2
> half charged batteries as the charged one has cascaded into the flat one
> until equilibrium has been reached.
Gary... it seams you have been trying to prove something out here on
this list since I have been away.
I can't believe that nobody has called your bluff here. Since We all do
know a bit about batteries.
Your above test will in fact not work very well at all. Since you have
no additional voltage above the charged voltage of the full battery.
What you will have in the morning is a slightly disscharged battery and
Empty battery with a little more surface charge.
A lead Acid battery fully charged , can't supply the voltage to bring
itself or another battery above the chemical Hysterisis voltage that
will make the discharged one take on a charge. You will need about 13.5
volts to get a 12 volt PbLA to take on a charge. It's resting voltage
will be 12.8 to 13.2. You need about .3 to .4 more volts to really get
any charge of the dead or "flat" battery.
Using you equalibrium, it will happen very soon and no real amphour
transfer will happen. But they both will be at the same voltage.
Dump chargers need a extra battery or two in the charge pack to over
come this little common sense problem.
>
> "I think you have the concept here but there is only one current flowing and
> it can only flow in one direction at any one time. Its direction is
> determined by the greater EMF that of the motor/generator or that of the
> battery. The amount of current is determined by the magnitude of the
> difference between the motor/generator and battery EMFs and the resistance
> in the path of the current."
>
> Isn't this exactly what I said "that the shaft output of a motor can be
> defined as a/v in, minus a/v out, minus resistance" ?
>
This is a incorrect statment.
Power out = power in minus losses.
Losses can me a multitude of things.
Lets also restrict the power out to Shaft power. Where input power is VA
or watts. Assuming a PF of %100 and DC power of course.
> I can see that you all seem to be able to grasp that back emf is in one way
> or another, slowing your motors yet you all seem to think this is a good
> thing.
>
> Garry Stanley
>
> Cable.net.nz
back EMF is a result of having a classical motor do classical work. You
can build a motor with very little back EMF. They usually have very
little efficientcy also.
Ya move a wire in a magnetic field, you get current. You move current in
a wire, you get a magnetic field. Pretty clear to me.
Me 'n Faraday are in pretty good agreement here.
Help me Gary... just what are you trying to prove here???
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
garry wrote:
>
> Hi Peter,
>
> "No, EMF stands for Electro Motive Force. It IS voltage not the magnetic
> force. The magnetic field created by the back EMF is a secondary product
> of the voltage flowing in the coils."
>
> OK EMF is driving the motor so back emf is what ...driving the motor
> too...nope, sorry back EMF is anti EMF if you like, if it was aiding the
> motor they would call it forward EMF.
>
> "It does if you disconnect the battery. He was pointing that out to show
> that Back EMF does not resist the turning of the motor by itself. It is
> not a loss. It is simply a property of motors (and generators since
> they are both the same thing)."
>
> Yes I se that point here but mine is equally valid that there is never a
> time when power is applied to a motor that there is not a closed circuit and
> therefore there is always back EMF.
NO Sir!!! this is only true if the motor is spining. At 0 rpm there is
Zero Back emf. Power calcs become I^2R. Your motor is a resistor that
has LOTS of inductacnce.
>
> "Current is only actually flowing in one direction. Which direction
> depends on whether the Back EMF is higher or lower than the applied
> voltage."
>
> Yup I will agree with this one my point here is how much current is flowing,
> when the switch turns on and you comprehend what im saying here you will see
> that I am not trying to get more out than in, im simply trying to say that
> you can get more out from what you put in.
Ummm What!, Energy is neither created nor destroyed... where does the
"more than you put in" come from???
>
>
> Garry Stanley
>
> Cable.net.nz
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Rich,
I thought that removing back emf from a motor, would remove the magnetic
resistance and the electrical resistance in a motor and it might be
beneficial.
Thanx for the dump charger info that was something I was going to ask about
when I get closer to having an actual road going EV.
My problem here is I speak moron, while everyone else here speaks
technobabble ...no offence I just don't understand it any more than most
seem to understand what im on about.
I suggested that a motor in motion produces current and that the current
produced resists the input current and reduces its ability to do work, I
further suggested that this generated current in a motor creates magnetic
fields that resist the approach and attract the exiting rotor and that these
2 things once removed would mean that the shaft output would increase, you
would get more out, of what you are putting in, not more out than you are
putting in and I might have also suggested that both of these existing
"flaws" if you like in an electric motor lead to heat which is the third
enemy in a motor.
I think this is simple logic and I know how to stop the current flowing,
which removes the magnetic field and therefore the heat, but no one else
seems to think so.
What do you think ?
Garry Stanley
Cable.net.nz
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bruce wrote:
I agree that there are too many 'EV trading POST'
wannabee sites. There are 10 on the 'EVs for Sale'
links on http://www.eaaev.org/eaaevsforsale.html
<SNIP>
Some have no information, so have too much information,
some have old ads that need to be taken down, and some
show ads that are labeled 'sold' (who needs to know
it was sold? The added images just slow the loading
of the page).
<SNIP>
But having just one site might not work either.
How many ads are there?
Too many for one webmaster? (people have lives too
you know, and these pages are a free service).
<SNIP>
It is my guess that really only two sites are needed:
West and East coast.
Gotta love this thread! I created the EV Tradin' Post because I was
unhappy with many of the existing sites, both in format and in
maintenance. Yes, the EV Tradin' Post does show "Sold" ads, but only for
about a week, then the ads are completely deleted. I do that because when
I just deleted sold EVs I usually got an email asking what happened to the
such and such ad. I like the idea of a more standardized format, and I
will look into trying to use some of your points. All I would have to do
is modify the input form, but given the range of EV related items sold I am
not sure it would work.
I don't think the regional idea would work, as it seems EVs do move about
quite a bit. For example, three local (Kansas City) EVs sold on the
Tradin' Post. One went to the Washington DC, one to Oregon, and one to
Tennessee. Another came to KC from Vermont. I think a regional post would
probably limit that flexibility and leave us central folks with no EVs to
buy or sell. Maybe we should look into creating a multiple web master,
single Tradin' Post concept. One site with separate listings by
region. That would keep the maintenance down to something that wouldn't
overwhelm any one person, and while grouping EVs by regional location it
would allow single point access to all ads.
To keep the ads current I run a roughly monthly check on all ads. When I
get no response, the ad gets deleted. I also screen the ads, some are just
not EV related and don't belong. I am considering splitting the Tradin'
Post into a for sale page and a wanted page. Should I?
It does get to be more than a handful. With the EV Album, the EV Tradin'
Post, the MAEAA website, my personal EV webpage, the C-Car, MAEAA, and
TEVan egroups, and the "electric" emblems it is easy for me to get
behind. I actually took a day off from work this week to try and catch
up. I think I need about two more days to get even. Of course on the side
I am trying to get the two Forces back on the road and fix my house. It
does get to be a bit much. I know Bruce is covering even more and I don't
know how he does it.
BTW, I will be traveling this week, I leave this morning for Portland,
Oregon to drive a truckload of furniture back to Kansas City for my
mother. I will probably not be able to do any Tradin' Post or EV Album
updates while I am on the road. I will have my laptop along, but it is
very limited in capability (90 mhz Pentium) and Internet access will be a
challenge in route. Anyone got a faster one in the Portland area you want
to give me a great deal on? :^)
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
'95 Force (x2)
Kansas City, Missouri
EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Have fun with him Rich. He doesn't understand how a motor works so
naturally he thinks he can improve it. He thinks that Back EMF is a
loss and won't believe me when I tell him it's not.
Good luck, he is so fixated on his own theories that he won't listen to
reason and he actually believes that physical laws don't apply to him.
On Sun, 2003-03-23 at 01:35, garry wrote:
> Hi Rich,
>
> I thought that removing back emf from a motor, would remove the magnetic
> resistance and the electrical resistance in a motor and it might be
> beneficial.
>
> Thanx for the dump charger info that was something I was going to ask about
> when I get closer to having an actual road going EV.
>
> My problem here is I speak moron, while everyone else here speaks
> technobabble ...no offence I just don't understand it any more than most
> seem to understand what im on about.
>
> I suggested that a motor in motion produces current and that the current
> produced resists the input current and reduces its ability to do work, I
> further suggested that this generated current in a motor creates magnetic
> fields that resist the approach and attract the exiting rotor and that these
> 2 things once removed would mean that the shaft output would increase, you
> would get more out, of what you are putting in, not more out than you are
> putting in and I might have also suggested that both of these existing
> "flaws" if you like in an electric motor lead to heat which is the third
> enemy in a motor.
>
> I think this is simple logic and I know how to stop the current flowing,
> which removes the magnetic field and therefore the heat, but no one else
> seems to think so.
>
> What do you think ?
>
> Garry Stanley
>
> Cable.net.nz
>
>
>
--
EVDL
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike
you have done good work, Thanks
Why not just provide a sorted web page by region instead. It could be done by
the server if the information is there.
Pete
3/23/03 5:19:55 AM, Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Bruce wrote:
>>I agree that there are too many 'EV trading POST'
>>wannabee sites. There are 10 on the 'EVs for Sale'
>>links on http://www.eaaev.org/eaaevsforsale.html
>
>><SNIP>
>Gotta love this thread! I created the EV Tradin' Post because I was
>unhappy with many of the existing sites, both in format and in
>maintenance. Yes, the EV Tradin' Post does show "Sold" ads, but only for
>about a week, then the ads are completely deleted. I do that because when
>I just deleted sold EVs I usually got an email asking what happened to the
>such and such ad. I like the idea of a more standardized format, and I
>will look into trying to use some of your points. All I would have to do
>is modify the input form, but given the range of EV related items sold I am
>not sure it would work.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Garry
What you seem to be missing, and folks have been trying to describe to you
is that back EMF is simply how a motor works. It effectively limits the
power produced by the motor to that needed at the output shaft.
Here's a simple experiment that may help you better understand. Take a
motor (brushed DC that you have on hand), put a load on it and connect it to
a couple of batteries. Now, start increasing the load on the motor so more
power is needed. You will see the back EMF decrease so the motor will draw
more current and thus produce more power. At the same time, as the current
increases, the resistance of the wire causes more heat to be generated.
This heat is what determines motor ratings, and is why you can run a motor
above it's rated power as long as you remove the heat or stop the motor
before the heat builds up to damaging levels.
To see the back EMF exceed your input voltage, connect the motor to a
partially discharged battery and measure the rpm. Now, connect a gasoline
engine to the output shaft of the motor. Connect everything back up and use
the engine to turn the motor faster than the battery can turn it. You will
find that the motor is now a generator and is charging your battery! Back
EMF is exceeding your input voltage and current is flowing the other way.
This is what everyone means when they say a motor is also a generator. With
an AC system or a shunt DC system, it's easy to do this and is how
regenerative braking works. With a series DC motor, it's harder to build a
controller to do this, but you just proved it will also act as a generator.
Dave Davidson
Laurel, Maryland
1993 Dodge TEVan
From: "garry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Motor, surprise!
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 20:35:41 +1200
Hi Rich,
I thought that removing back emf from a motor, would remove the magnetic
resistance and the electrical resistance in a motor and it might be
beneficial.
Thanx for the dump charger info that was something I was going to ask about
when I get closer to having an actual road going EV.
My problem here is I speak moron, while everyone else here speaks
technobabble ...no offence I just don't understand it any more than most
seem to understand what im on about.
I suggested that a motor in motion produces current and that the current
produced resists the input current and reduces its ability to do work, I
further suggested that this generated current in a motor creates magnetic
fields that resist the approach and attract the exiting rotor and that
these
2 things once removed would mean that the shaft output would increase, you
would get more out, of what you are putting in, not more out than you are
putting in and I might have also suggested that both of these existing
"flaws" if you like in an electric motor lead to heat which is the third
enemy in a motor.
I think this is simple logic and I know how to stop the current flowing,
which removes the magnetic field and therefore the heat, but no one else
seems to think so.
What do you think ?
Garry Stanley
Cable.net.nz
_________________________________________________________________
STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 04:19 AM 3/23/2003 -0600, Mike Chancey wrote:
Gotta love this thread! I created the EV Tradin' Post because I was
unhappy with many of the existing sites, both in format and in
maintenance. Yes, the EV Tradin' Post does show "Sold" ads, but only for
about a week, then the ads are completely deleted. I do that because when
I just deleted sold EVs I usually got an email asking what happened to the
such and such ad. I like the idea of a more standardized format, and I
will look into trying to use some of your points. All I would have to do
is modify the input form, but given the range of EV related items sold I
am not sure it would work.
Does your site host allow Server Side Includes or Server Side Scripting?
One thing I did for one site with LOTS of data that changed frequently was
write a Server Side Javascript that built the pages out of simple text
files. It would just get a list of files in a certain directory, then
build the page on demand.
That made it VERY easy to add/remove things, as all I had to do was add a
new text file (with specific format) or delete one. You would probably
want 2 files per listing, a jpg, and a text data file.
By having specific named fields, you could also easily have a page that
displays only Wanted, only ForSale, Only Vehicles, Only East Coast, etc....
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Pick-your-brains POST
Range on lead-acid wet cell conversions is generally 50
miles (at 65mph), unless you improve the battery to
vehicle weight ratio (cut out the Detroit metal).
How much weight can one strip from a conversion project?
If the heavy metal body was lifted from the chassis
and a fiberglass body made, how much weight could be
saved and how much range could be added?
How hard it is to make a fiberglass body? Is there
a url showing how to do it?
How would one design a better aerodynamic fibergalss
body. Wind pusher trucks, SUVs, and vans lose range to
wind resistance.
If a person took an existing conversion and lighted
the vehicle, could they reach the 70 mile range
(at 65mph) mark?
Is this too much work, or a project of deminising
returns?
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
http://platinum.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I totally agree here. I'm on my third Curtis, the first two being 1221C's.
The first 1221 was repaired or replaced by Curtis under warranty, the second
also replaced under warranty by Curtis almost a year later, but I swapped up
to the 1231. So far, so good. Curtis was *excellent* in the repair/replace
dept., at least for warranty repairs.
I hate advocating tossing rather than fixing, but a bigger controller will
be worth the $ spent. Even though the 1221 is rated for 400 amps, I don't
think it likes it too much, especially if it's warmed up.
Otmar's new Zilla Z1K would be looking really tempting.
On another note - now that I have the 500 amp controller, I noticed my wet
cells didn't deliver the amps. The e-meter rarely popped up past 400. Even
when I floored it, the amp usage appeared the same as with the 1221. But it
"felt" healthier, knowing that I'm not pegging the controller anymore.
Moral: To make a performance advantage of the higher power controllers, you
really need to upgrade the battery pack to something that can deliver the
amps as well.
JRAB
On 3/22/03 9:58 AM, "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> You probable won't believe this but "This is your lucky day" . As now you
> can move right on up to a bigger controller. Once you plug in one of those
> monster controllers and hit the go pedal you'll feel better . At least you
> didn't burn it out hooking it up wrong . At least you didn't Burn out the
> motor. At least it didn't blow out and stay full on. At least now your a
> member of the "I blow up a Curtis club" ,was this your first? At least you
> have the people on the list to empathize with you. We may get a thread of
> blown crutis controllers stories ( how would ya like to work for Curtis and
> see that) . I will say this (just because I may have to have one repaired
> someday) there new one's are much better that the old one's . The last one I
> had fixed (from the factory) runs much better the it did before , I call
> them and told them they were doing something right and was told the fets and
> better , lower R ect.
> I'm almost sure that you can't take off from a stop and go up hill at the
> same time with one. That voids the warranty . (joke)
> Any time I have problems like this and I'm testing around I put a light (500
> watt halogen light so at least I get some amps) in line with the batteries .
> This way if something is shorted all that happens is the light comes on .
> Put it on the batteries side , a good place is were you have the fuse, just
> take out the fuse and put your light bulb there. (I have learned most of
> these tricks the hard way ) , also unplug your E- meter dc/dc converter and
> bat charger (and anything else you want to keep working) before doing any
> testing ( did you unplug you meter before testing your motor? ) . Stuff
> just happens. At least you didn't blow your e-meter/dc converter and
> charger. I hope we can say "at least he didn't buy a gasser"
> Last one I blow and this was quite a while ago I was so discussed I decided
> I'd just drive home (it blow full on coming off a red light) . Sparks and
> flames coming out under the hood , It had that DCP acceleration , " @#$ if
> it last 1 minute I'll make it home " it didn't , I did get across the light
> . That was one controller that can't be fixed .
> Steve Clunn
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Friday, March 21, 2003 9:37 PM
> Subject: Re: Sob... I think if fried my motor.
>
>
>> What model Curtis controller? Which hill in SF? - if I'm down
>> there with my EV, maybe I will give it a try sometime... Some of
>> those hills are downright scary! Gulp!
>>
>> Chuck Hursch
>> Larkspur, CA
>> NBEAA treasurer and webmaster
>> www.geocities.com/nbeaa
>> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Sent: Friday, March 21, 2003 3:17 PM
>> Subject: Re: Sob... I think if fried my motor.
>>
>>
>>> Well I took the batteries off the top of the motor and hooked
>> up a battery
>>> charger. 2amps it went 10 amps faster and 50 amps faster yet.
>> It probably
>>> isn't the motor. I checked further and found the fuse blown in
>> the Curtis
>>> voltage sense line. I replace the fuse and put it back
>> together. Nothing.
>>> I now think the Curtis is blown. I get 1800 ohms across B+ &
>> B-. Dead
>>> short between B- and M-. 5v aprox. between M- and B+. A2
>> isn't hooked up.
>>> I was in first gear going up a steep San Francisco hill. The
>> car is 3200
>>> pounds I am 250. Four 5th graders Probably 400 pounds maybe
>> more. That is
>>> close to 3900 pounds. I have gone up this hill many times and
>> always almost
>>> stall. This must have been the straw. Is there any way to
>> test the Curtis
>>> static and under power? Thanks for any help and I wonder how
>> that little
>>> 1000 amp controller would work in my Aspire. Is the Curtis
>> worth rebuilding
>>> and does anyone soup them up. Lawrence Rhodes..........
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 8:18 PM
>>> Subject: Re: Sob... I think if fried my motor.
>>>
>>>
>>>> bummer ... what gear were you in? Hope its just a cable
>> bruned off.
>>> what
>>>> motor do you have??
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 7:25 AM
>>>> Subject: Sob... I think if fried my motor.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I went up a hill I almost stall on everytime with an extra
>> 350 pounds.
>>> I
>>>>> stalled and tried to feather the clutch and something
>> stopped working.
>>> I
>>>>> had to back down the hill. The big 400 amp fuse is good.
>> I smell
>>>> something
>>>>> burnt coming up from the motor...sobbbbbbbb..... Gotta
>> jack it up and
>>>> test
>>>>> the motor.l..What could it be.....????Lawrence Gotta drive
>> an ice to
>>> work
>>>>> sob.....Rhodes.........
>>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think you might want to restate what you are
saying.
Dual motors do not need to be on the wheels.
Wheel motors do not have to be dual.
For one example of a belted dual motor EV, see
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/120.html
I beleive the largest number of belted motors feeding
the drive train was four ADV DC 8" 'rs on a Saturn
conversion made for a lawyer trying to get his name on
a land speed record category. There was so much power,
in loading the EV on the flat bed, the drive shaft was
twisted (damaged). (white lightning excepted as it was
not a street vehicle)
For wheel motor links see
http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=%22wheel+motor%22+electric
Perhaps you could tell us what you trying to do (?).
-
From: "donmedon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Sun Mar 23, 2003 7:26 am
Subject: using duel motors
hello
Can anyone direct me to some information on using duel DC
motors in a EV, one on each wheel ?
Don Medon
-
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--- Begin Message ---
Most modern cars don't have a frame per se. It is a "unitized body
construction". They aren't too bad in terms of structural efficiency,
IMHO.
Trucks (including most SUVs) are body on frame and are less efficient,
IMHO.
Losing weight is really a holistic affair. You lighten the body which
means lighter springs, shocks, axles, uprights brakes wheels, etc can be
used. So you need a smaller engine/motor to push. This is a
simplification on a grand scale.
Building a body from scratch is not a hobbyist thing.
To get to a 70 mile range, I would suggest
a) slow down
b) LRR tires
c) reduce the drag coefficient
d) reduce the frontal area
e) you could do lexan rear windows, if it is legal in your state
f) lighter (cheap aftermarket) front fenders and hood
g) LED marker/tail/turn/ stop lights
h) xenon headlamps
i) lighter lubricating oils
j) removal of all sound deadening on the under floor, behind kick panels
k) if you only use 2nd, 4th and reverse, then remove 1st, 3rd and 5th
from the transmission.
l) investigate a lower loss rear axle, I believe Solectria E-10s had a
custom S-10 axle made, for example
m) regen
n) obtain a motor/controller efficiency map and use it to change your
driving habits
o) in lieu of regen, use an axle driven alternator to charge the 12V
battery (like some stock cars) only when drive motor throttle input is
zero, and throw out the DC/DC, supplement with a roof PV panel
HTH
Seth
Bruce EVangel Parmenter wrote:
>
> Pick-your-brains POST
>
> Range on lead-acid wet cell conversions is generally 50
> miles (at 65mph), unless you improve the battery to
> vehicle weight ratio (cut out the Detroit metal).
>
> How much weight can one strip from a conversion project?
>
> If the heavy metal body was lifted from the chassis
> and a fiberglass body made, how much weight could be
> saved and how much range could be added?
>
> How hard it is to make a fiberglass body? Is there
> a url showing how to do it?
>
> How would one design a better aerodynamic fibergalss
> body. Wind pusher trucks, SUVs, and vans lose range to
> wind resistance.
>
> If a person took an existing conversion and lighted
> the vehicle, could they reach the 70 mile range
> (at 65mph) mark?
>
> Is this too much work, or a project of deminising
> returns?
>
> =====
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> . EV List Editor & RE newswires
> . (originator of the above ASCII art)
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>
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--- Begin Message ---
I think a lot of this will depend on what you start out with. A good place
to start would be to look at the kit car market. For example, compare VW
bug based kits to a stock bug weight. Aerodynamics can improve quite a bit,
though, over some cars. However, a stock aerodynamic car will show less
improvement. I believe some Karmen Ghia conversions have already acheived
what you suggest.
However,in doing this, you have two different effects. Weight is a big
penalty in stop and go driving, what EVs are often used for. If you keep a
steady speed, weight is less of a factor. Conversely, aerodynamics is a big
factor in highway driving, but not much in stop and go type driving (low
speed).
One thought I had - and might do if I were 30 years younger - is to buy an
aerodynamic kit body, possibly one that someone started and lost interest in
(i.e. cheap). Then take a small pickup/blazer type vehicle with a similar
wheelbase and track, strip it down to just the frame and suspension, adapt
the kit body to it and build it up as an EV. You could probably easily get
a 50% battery weight or better without exceeding the GVW of the
chassis/suspension of the original truck.
As far as designing a body for the chassis, and making it as aerodynamic as
possible, that is beyond my abilities. However, I believe some on the list
could easily build up a fiberglass body, using similar techniques used for
boats. The hardest part, then, will be the design, mockup, wind tunnel
testing, etc (or take a casting of an EV-1 for the easy way out).
As for whether a project of this type is worth it, only you can answer that.
I believe it would have to be a labor of love, as I doubt it would ever
pay off financially. If you decide to experiment, you might want to try to
get a kit manufacturer interested in running a batch of bodies for a
particular vehicle, for example a SWB S-10 pickup donor. Include battery
boxes, etc. It could make for a very nice kit, but the market of people who
want to do that much work is fairly limited. Maybe sell a rolling chassis
with motor, controller, etc already installed, and a body ready to bolt on.
Just enough of a kit to avoid crash certification. Still a limited market,
though.
Just my thoughts...
Dave Davidson
Laurel, Maryland
1993 Dodge TEVan
From: Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Better range from less weight
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 07:24:48 -0800 (PST)
Pick-your-brains POST
Range on lead-acid wet cell conversions is generally 50
miles (at 65mph), unless you improve the battery to
vehicle weight ratio (cut out the Detroit metal).
How much weight can one strip from a conversion project?
If the heavy metal body was lifted from the chassis
and a fiberglass body made, how much weight could be
saved and how much range could be added?
How hard it is to make a fiberglass body? Is there
a url showing how to do it?
How would one design a better aerodynamic fibergalss
body. Wind pusher trucks, SUVs, and vans lose range to
wind resistance.
If a person took an existing conversion and lighted
the vehicle, could they reach the 70 mile range
(at 65mph) mark?
Is this too much work, or a project of deminising
returns?
=====
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. (originator of the above ASCII art)
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--- Begin Message ---
I know everyone here is pretty much against hybrid vehicles, but they
may be the necessary stepping stone between fuel and electric. What
type of fuels, besides unleaded gasoline, can be realistically used in
a hybrid vehicle design? Range is a big consideration.
Anything besides:
-LPG
-CNG
-BioDiesel
-Diesel
-Sam Harper
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sun, 2003-03-23 at 08:24, Bruce EVangel Parmenter wrote:
> Pick-your-brains POST
>
> Range on lead-acid wet cell conversions is generally 50
> miles (at 65mph), unless you improve the battery to
> vehicle weight ratio (cut out the Detroit metal).
>
> How much weight can one strip from a conversion project?
>
> If the heavy metal body was lifted from the chassis
> and a fiberglass body made, how much weight could be
> saved and how much range could be added?
>
Not much. Durable fiberglass bodies weigh almost as much as steel. As
a guess replacing the entire body with a similar fiberglass body would
save maybe 200-300 lbs.
> How hard it is to make a fiberglass body? Is there
> a url showing how to do it?
Tons of them. Glass over foam is probably the easiest way to build a
one off body. Unfortunately getting it to look nice requires a lot of
work and fiberglass filler. End result is almost as heavy as the
original body.
Some of the basics are covered here:
http://www.rqriley.com/frp-foam.html
>
> How would one design a better aerodynamic fibergalss
> body. Wind pusher trucks, SUVs, and vans lose range to
> wind resistance.
That is where you would get the best results. You want to keep the
airflow laminar as long as possible. The easiest way to do this is to
keep expanding the frontal area as you go back. In other words keep
sloping the front of the vehicle as far back as possible. You want the
slope to be fairly gentle with no major disruptions or changes in angle.
This is why the "cab forward" design is becoming popular with the
windshield sloped at almost the same angle as the hood.
Once you hit maximum width/height you want to start sloping at at no
more than 16 degrees. When you get to the back chop it off square at
whatever width it is, don't use curves on the back corners and don't try
to increase the angle beyond 16 degrees.
>
> If a person took an existing conversion and lighted
> the vehicle, could they reach the 70 mile range
> (at 65mph) mark?
>
It depends on how much you could lighten it. I think the aero
improvements would help more though. Weight only matters when
starting/stopping and climbing hills.
> Is this too much work, or a project of deminising
> returns?
Depends. You could end up with a very cool looking vehicle with better
aerodynamics and better range. Is this worth all of the extra work to
you? If you build the body yourself cost will be around $1,000, give or
take. Maybe $1,300-$1,400 if you used Kevlar instead of fiberglasss
(save a bit of weight).
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Batteries definitely limit the power available, however more powerful
controllers have more low end torque which 'feels' more powerful.
Even though you might not pull more than 400 amps from the batteries,
the motor loop has increased from 400 amps to 550 amps.
> On another note - now that I have the 500 amp controller, I noticed my wet
> cells didn't deliver the amps. The e-meter rarely popped up past 400. Even
> when I floored it, the amp usage appeared the same as with the 1221. But it
> "felt" healthier, knowing that I'm not pegging the controller anymore.
> Moral: To make a performance advantage of the higher power controllers, you
> really need to upgrade the battery pack to something that can deliver the
> amps as well.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yahoo is only an Archive for the EV discussion list. Messages posted to
the Yahoo archive do NOT go out on the EV Discussion List.
If you post your messages to the Yahoo archive only a small percentage
of the list will see them. You really should follow the directions and
join the EV Discussion list and not just the Yahoo archive.
Unless, that is, you only want a few people to read your posts.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
For the newbies, back pre circa 1990, curtis was the
controller of choice. It was the only choice. There
wasn't anything else for the price/performance. It
was wonderful when compared to what came before.
But, the design of the early models died. They got
the label cursit because of how many EV drivers
found it had smoked.
When my Blazer was originally made back in 1992 by
Solar Electric (now defunct), I was told that my
4500 lb Blazer was too heavy for a curtis and that
it would blow.
The curtis 1221B was mounted on its side against a
1' x 2" metal plate. This worked well for about a
year. It was replaced, and worked for another year.
But in turned out that the way the curtis was mounted,
and the cheap curtis potting material, was causing
cracks in the potting material which allowed moisture
in the controller. The heating, cooling, and changing
climatic conditions, allowed corrosion which to made
the controller fail.
I opted not to replace the cursit for the third time.
The Auburn Scientific (now defunct) C600 controller
I went with, has worked as solid as a rock (knock on
keyboard) ever since and continues to be strong.
As POSTed in the past, I have continuously pushed my
envelope, repeatedly climbing the Santa Cruz mountains
(to Big Basin) and the Sunol grade (trips to
Sacramento), I have gotten the controller as hot as
a pistol, and it has not failed.
If it ever needs to be replaced, I will look for
another air cooled controller about the 600-800 amp
ability, but I will see if I can get regen. The regen
is more for dynamic braking than getting a couple
extra miles in range. Coming down a mountain in a
5000 lb Blazer, is second gear and brake pumping all
the way.
... my $2
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