EV Digest 2671
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Charger
by "Ben" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) I need to start stopping
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
3) Re: Motor, surprise!
by "garry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: ZAP RAP FEVER: page to sell or trade your EV
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Better range from less weight
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: My First EV Frown
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Motor, surprise!
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: I need to start stopping
by Lonnie Borntreger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: ZAP RAP FEVER: page to sell or trade your EV
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Motor, surprise!
by "garry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Sob... I think if fried my motor.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Solenoid Motor (was: Motor, surprise!)
by Lonnie Borntreger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Solenoid Motor (was: Motor, surprise!)
by "garry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: ZAP RAP FEVER: page to sell or trade your EV
by "Will Beckett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) My First EV Frown
by Marvin Campbell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Evercells versus Yellow tops
by "Shelton, John D. AW2" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Better range from less weight
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Motor, surprise!
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I'll think you will find that inductive charging has already been
implemented and is part of a large debate as to the best methods of
charging
The problem with inductive charging is that it is extreeeeeemly
wastefull. With out getting to technical, you have to produce the EM
field round the charging plate in 360 degrees and you can only ever
capture some of that energy again.
Where as if you just plugged it in then all electricity can just flow
though with minimal loss.
My two cents
Ben
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Buford, Joseph E
Sent: Monday, 24 March 2003 3:59 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Charger
I wonder if this could be adapted for EV's?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/2861987.stm
Joe Buford
310-416-9319
Boeing Satellite Systems
702 \O/
[XXXXX]-H-[XXXXX]
/0\ GEO
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm in the process of putting my Scirocco back on the road, but it needs a
new pack of Optimas after the NG3 damaged the last set. In preparation for
the new pack I've been doing all the other jobs that I've been putting off.
I'd retained the original dampers and these have proved to be well past their
sell by date, so I installed a set of Gas pressurised Boge dampers. Inserts
at the front (hydraulic oil gets everywhere) and coilovers at the back.
The steering had been given an advisory note at the last MOT inspection, but
for the life of me I couldn't find the source of the knock. A recon rack was
pretty cheap, so I set about putting one in. The old rack turned out to be
half full of water, with rust obscuring the worn guide bush at one end that
was the source of the aforementioned knock.
The brakes have always been poor, after a certain point increased pedal
pressure seemed to have no effect and it was almost impossible to lock the
wheels. The RHD versions of the MK1 Golf (Rabbit) have a pair of bellcranks
and pullrod to operate the servo and master cylinder mounted in pretty much
their original LHD position. I'd modified this system to use just a single
bellcrank, with the servo and master cylinder mounted transversely tight
against the firewall. The brakes always passed the MOT, but whilst the fronts
had no trouble achieving the required efficiency on the dyno, the rears just
about crept up to spec with the pedal hard down to the floor. There are a
number of different bore rear wheel cylinders that are all physically
compatible, 14.3mm, 17mm, 19mm, and 22mm. My car was supposedly fitted with
17mm rear cylinders so I upgraded to 19mm. This proved to be disastrous with
even less braking than before. On initial investigation it turned out that
when I first put the vehicle on the road I'd been incorrectly supplied with
14mm rear cylinders, which would have accounted for the poor rear brake
performance, but not for the poor overall performance, or why larger rear
cylinders had made the situation worse.
I surfed round a few VW sites and found that mine was a common complaint on
RHD cars. The problem being put down to flex in the linkage. The common
solution was a MK2 16 valve Golf servo and master cylinder. The replacement
cylinder is 22mm rather that 20mm improving the 'feel' of the system, but
increasing the effort required, this being more than compensated for with a
more powerful servo. The larger servo wouldn't fit my Scirocco, but I did
pick up the larger bore cylinder. I spent a lot of time thinking about how my
car fits together, so it was only about 20 minutes work to pull out the front
battery pack and box to gain full access to the brake system. At this point I
called in a neighbour to come and press the brake pedal whilst I assessed the
linkage for flex. There was no significant flex in my bellcrank or bracketry
but a staggering 1/4" in the firewall! It's no wonder that the brakes were
poor, that translates into more than 1" of travel at the pedal.
I went away to consider the situation and do some research. I've owned a
number of X1/9's over the years and always liked the bakes once I'd done my
upgrades. The front calliper bore, master cylinder bore, and pedal ratios are
pretty much identical to the Scirocco and it doesn't need a servo. So I've
started to build a new brake linkage that will be braced into the strut tower
to prevent flex. I'm going to use the larger master cylinder, but alter the
bellcrank ratio to suit, and discard the servo. I can still fit the servo
later, but given just how much effort is needed to operate it unpowered I'm
not convinced of it's usefulness. Even powered up, but with no brake fluid in
the system it seems to have a lot of drag.
Paul Compton
BVS technical officer www.bvs.org.uk
www.sciroccoev.co.uk
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Lee,
I really appreciate what you guys are trying to do and if you will bear with
me one more time I will try and lay this out so you cant mistake what im
saying.
2 magnets with their north (like) poles facing each other repel.
2 magnets with one north and one south pole facing each other attract.
This is the basis of an electric motor.
An electric motor can be made to operate by either pulling 2 magnetic fields
causing the rotor to turn or pushing 2 magnetic fields, there is a third way
of course and that is one magnet pulling a bit of metal, but I don't think
your motors are going to be built this way (yet).
When a magnet approaches a coil (that has a closed circuit) it generates a
current in the coil, the current in the coil causes a pole to form on the
coils ends.
A north pole magnet approaching a coil will generate a north pole ....every
time (Lenz).
A south pole magnet approaching a coil will generate a south pole .....
every time (Lenz)
A north pole magnet exiting a coil will generate a south pole .... every
time (Lenz)
A south pole magnet exiting a coil will generate a north pole ...every time
(Lenz)
Now call it what you will, but every time a magnetic field encounters
another magnetic field resistance occurs, this is just the way of the world
and it is extremely relevant to motors which use only electro magnets
because, in order for and electro magnet to produce the flux field, that is
causing the resistance, it MUST have a closed circuit.
I like to call what I have described above "magnetic resistance to
rotation", because each field created by the interacting magnetic fields is
working against the motor accelerating in its direction of rotation, and
while I have used magnets here to explain this to you, you have in your
motor double this, because each of your magnets is a coil and all coils
react like this to magnetic fields.
Ok now its time for thinking because this gets worse.
First lets choose a motor type and say that our motor is a "pull" motor.
We know, if we want to pull a magnet to a coil that we will need unlike
poles, a south to attract a north pole magnet, but I just told you that, in
the real world, when the north pole magnet gets near the coil, it makes a
north pole as a result of the current flow, so that means the current in the
coil is flowing in exactly the opposite direction of the current we need,
because we know that, in a coil, reversing the current changes the poles and
we know that the north pole magnet makes a north pole so we can deduce from
that also that the current is flowing the wrong way to make the south pole
we need to pull this magnet to our coil.
In order to make a south pole on this coil, to pull the north pole magnet,
my power must first overcome the generated current to change the pole of the
coil, but just because the coil has overcome the generated current with this
input current doesn't mean its not there any more, something about you cant
destroy energy I think, its still there and current that could otherwise be
put to work in the motor as shaft output is being used to overcome it.
I like to call this electrical resistance.
My technical description is certainly inadequate, but my science is sound
and my understanding of how a motor works is very practical.
Garry Stanley
Cable.net.nz
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/EVList/message/37735
the second half of the POST, 1sclunn has confused the
EV for sale topic with EV charging. This thread was not
about EV charging but a multitude of EV for sale sites
which can cause a hardship to the EV newbie. I only
respond to
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/EVList/message/37735
to try to minimize confusion and ask that people read my
original POST
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/EVList/message/37698
For those that are not aspiring EV for sale site owners,
and are the weary who have had to slog through the many
EV for sale sites, my POST was to state what is obvious
to the latter and possibly ask for call for a
coordination of efforts.
As usual, do not take anything personal, but in the
spirit of trying to be helpful to the EV community.
IMHO:
The EV community was not at the point of 'making money'
with the EV for Sale sites like broker when production
EV were available. Now that they aren't the EV community
is even less so. To ask for money is to reduce the
number fo people that would drive Electric. These times
are hard enough for EV drivers that to put up a toll.
With everybody and his brother making an EV for Sale site
and the advertisers not asked to provide the same basic
EV information, it becomes a nightmare for the newbie
EV buyer to know what the EV that is for sale, really is
(how many batteries, what type, how old, what charger,
controller, motor, etc.).
This only puts further barriers to more EV drivers. If one
EV newbie gives up in frustration to the ads, we have not
achieved our goal (it is hard enough as it is).
Mike has a successful site. Perhaps instead of others
starting another EV for Sale site, they could work with
Mike. Their effort would be like a team player, instead of
as competition.
This could be whatever they decide would help with the work
load and bandwidth.
But as I stated in
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/EVList/message/37698
I have resigned to:
"no one is going to following this. Its too organized,
and no fun."
It more exciting to strike out on your own like an
entrepreneur, than to make a coordinated effort with an
established site.
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
http://platinum.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bruce EVangel Parmenter wrote:
> How much weight can one strip from a conversion project?
I guess it depends on what you are willing to give up. Racers can take a
production car and easily remove 25% of the weight. But they take out
things that you might find important. Like a completely gutted interior,
all seats but one, heater and air conditioner, glass except for
windshield, etc.
> If the heavy metal body was lifted from the chassis
> and a fiberglass body made, how much weight could be
> saved and how much range could be added?
There's a company that makes the "Rodster", a partial fiberglass body
for your Blazer. As I recall, they claim it saves 500 lbs.
> How hard it is to make a fiberglass body? Is there
> a url showing how to do it?
It can be quick and easy if you don't care how it looks; or a lot of
work if you want something really pretty.
I built a body using the fiberglass-on-foam technique described by R. Q.
Riley. Basically, you build your body out of sheets of styrafoam, then
fiberglass it, then cut out the doors and window openings. You wind up
with a simple, strong body, but it has no compound curves and the
outside surface is rather irregular.
An improvement that is more work but looks better is to use an existing
car as your mold. You put mold release on the car, fiberglass it, and
pull off the fiberglass shell as a female mold. Then make a second
fiberglass body inside it, replicating the smooth surface and contour
produced by the car's body.
Still better is the vacuum bagging technique. It produces the best
parts, but is the most work. You make a mold, fiberglass, and put the
whole works in a giant plastic bag and suck the air out. Air pressure
squeezes the fiberglas tightly against the mold, picking up every
detail. It also squeezes out every bit of excess resin, making very
light strong parts.
> How would one design a better aerodynamic fiberglass
> body. Wind pusher trucks, SUVs, and vans lose range to
> wind resistance.
Most vehicles are designed for styling first, cost second, what's easy
to build third, and aerodynamics only if some engineer on the team yells
loud enough. Truly aerodynamic vehicles are very weird and ugly (to the
average person). Think of an airplane fuselage, or Buckminster Fuller's
Dymaxion car.
> If a person took an existing conversion and lightened the vehicle,
> could they reach the 70 mile range (at 65mph) mark?
Since there are conversion EVs that have done it, of course it is
possible. The "Red Beastie" designed by John Wayland comes to mind. The
key is basically to get at least 50% of the total weight in batteries.
> Is this too much work, or a project of diminishing returns?
It would be a lot of money and work to get your Blazer to this level,
but possible. Is it worth it? That's a judgement call.
Around here, a popular high school stunt is to take the body off some
old rused out pickup truck, and crudely graft on some car body that has
about the right wheelbase. The car body normally sits absurdly high on
the frame, but this allows them to use ridiculously oversized tires.
But... if you did this sort of thing "right", with more attention to
detail, you might be able to save a lot of weight and still have a
pretty drivable vehicle. The cost and effort should be much less than
with a custom body. A little econobox body can be light and improve
aerodynamics. Then fill the area under the floor with extra batteries to
get back up to the chassis GVWR rating.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John RA Benson wrote:
> Next test, try isolating the motor/controller from the pack. Lee
> wrote several years back about DC motors becoming large sources
> for ground faults because of the copper oxide dust (forgive me if
> I misspeak, Lee - can't find the post to quote from).
Close; it's from carbon dust from the brushes. Or just plain dirt or
water sucked in by the motor's cooling fan.
> In any case, I ended up putting a contactor that disconnected the
> motor from the pack when the key switch is off, and the ground
> fault problem disappeared.
Yes, this is how my EV is set up, too.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>
> Have fun with him Rich. He doesn't understand how a motor works so
> naturally he thinks he can improve it. He thinks that Back EMF is a
> loss and won't believe me when I tell him it's not.
>
> Good luck, he is so fixated on his own theories that he won't listen to
> reason and he actually believes that physical laws don't apply to him.
>
Yea I have noticed that. Now it's time for the list heavy weights to
either teach him or run him off. I got that flavor from last week, but I
have been out of town.
So roll the sleves up and try the learning curve just before I reach for
the Two by Fir.
Back EMF is clearly not a loss. It's a design limit of a given motor. I
know how to change it and modify it for my purposes. So do most of us
gear heads. Most notably Dennis Berube. I have a motor with Adjustable
Back EMF Curves... Kinda fun to play with.
As some of us long time listers know I did a solenoid BLDC motor wday
back in the mid 90s. It was very educational, it did the same things
that Gary's does, but I was just fooling myself, and I knew it, that's
why I didn't blast my findings all over this list. With a little more
home work I found I didn't have a practical clue in making usable
motors.
It's funny how the addition of knowledge, can make you feel a WHOLE lot
Dumber!!!
We will try our best before I reach for the flame thrower...
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Paul,
Instead of messing with all the linkages, why don't you migrate the
master cylinder to the right side so you can use a direct push rod type
setup like a LHD system? It would be very solid. That and a little
re-routing of some brake lines, and you'll never have to worry about
flex again - and you'd gain a LOT of braking efficiency.
Lonnie Borntreger
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have to commend Mike on his EV Trading Post site. It's a great site and
provides a needed service.
As far as the there being too many "EVs For Sale" sites and trying to
Regionalize them that may be hard to do.
For example, when we created the EVA/DC site, we just listed Evs for sale in
the Washington DC, Virginia and Maryland areas as a service to local club
members. But the web being what it is, we started getting requests from
owners from other areas including Australia!
I honestly think EAA chapters who also have "For Sale" listings might not
like the idea of removing their pages just so we could have one East Coast
Site and one West Coast site. Because as I mentioned, we use them as a
service for our local membership.
I basically have no interest in competing with Mike's site and it just adds
more responsibility on top of others I already have so I'm basically keeping
it simple and if people request their EVs listed I go ahead and list them.
At some point I would like to add form fields with Required information to
help standardize the information Bruce suggested.
Its also important that owners who have listed their EVs and sold them be
sure to have the webmaster know so they can remove them from the site.
Chip Gribben
EVA/DC Webmaster
http://www.evadc.org
NEDRA Power of DC Racing Coordinator
http://www.powerofdc.com
> From: Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 04:19:55 -0600
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: ZAP RAP FEVER: page to sell or trade your EV
>
> Bruce wrote:
>> I agree that there are too many 'EV trading POST'
>> wannabee sites. There are 10 on the 'EVs for Sale'
>> links on http://www.eaaev.org/eaaevsforsale.html
>
>> <SNIP>
>
>> Some have no information, so have too much information,
>> some have old ads that need to be taken down, and some
>> show ads that are labeled 'sold' (who needs to know
>> it was sold? The added images just slow the loading
>> of the page).
>
> <SNIP>
>
>
>> But having just one site might not work either.
>> How many ads are there?
>> Too many for one webmaster? (people have lives too
>> you know, and these pages are a free service).
>
> <SNIP>
>
>> It is my guess that really only two sites are needed:
>> West and East coast.
>
> Gotta love this thread! I created the EV Tradin' Post because I was
> unhappy with many of the existing sites, both in format and in
> maintenance. Yes, the EV Tradin' Post does show "Sold" ads, but only for
> about a week, then the ads are completely deleted. I do that because when
> I just deleted sold EVs I usually got an email asking what happened to the
> such and such ad. I like the idea of a more standardized format, and I
> will look into trying to use some of your points. All I would have to do
> is modify the input form, but given the range of EV related items sold I am
> not sure it would work.
>
> I don't think the regional idea would work, as it seems EVs do move about
> quite a bit. For example, three local (Kansas City) EVs sold on the
> Tradin' Post. One went to the Washington DC, one to Oregon, and one to
> Tennessee. Another came to KC from Vermont. I think a regional post would
> probably limit that flexibility and leave us central folks with no EVs to
> buy or sell. Maybe we should look into creating a multiple web master,
> single Tradin' Post concept. One site with separate listings by
> region. That would keep the maintenance down to something that wouldn't
> overwhelm any one person, and while grouping EVs by regional location it
> would allow single point access to all ads.
>
> To keep the ads current I run a roughly monthly check on all ads. When I
> get no response, the ad gets deleted. I also screen the ads, some are just
> not EV related and don't belong. I am considering splitting the Tradin'
> Post into a for sale page and a wanted page. Should I?
>
> It does get to be more than a handful. With the EV Album, the EV Tradin'
> Post, the MAEAA website, my personal EV webpage, the C-Car, MAEAA, and
> TEVan egroups, and the "electric" emblems it is easy for me to get
> behind. I actually took a day off from work this week to try and catch
> up. I think I need about two more days to get even. Of course on the side
> I am trying to get the two Forces back on the road and fix my house. It
> does get to be a bit much. I know Bruce is covering even more and I don't
> know how he does it.
>
> BTW, I will be traveling this week, I leave this morning for Portland,
> Oregon to drive a truckload of furniture back to Kansas City for my
> mother. I will probably not be able to do any Tradin' Post or EV Album
> updates while I am on the road. I will have my laptop along, but it is
> very limited in capability (90 mhz Pentium) and Internet access will be a
> challenge in route. Anyone got a faster one in the Portland area you want
> to give me a great deal on? :^)
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> Mike Chancey,
> '88 Civic EV
> '95 Force (x2)
> Kansas City, Missouri
> EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
> My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
> Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
> Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Lee,
I'm learning so the course has value :)
It would seem that my mistake is summing up what im talking about as back
emf, but im not totally convinced that what im taking about isn't back emf
yet.
I understand most of the terms and their meaning, but not all of them and I
know most of the laws and rules.
A good example of my stupidity is "I suggested that a motor in motion
produces current" where I assumed, thus making me an ass, that adding the
words "in motion" would infer to you that it was powered, in which case it
will have a closed circuit and "current" will flow.
I accept that you are correct here and without the closed circuit specified
there will only be voltage without amperage and therefore no current flow,
sorry layspeak never quite translates properly to techspeak, its a bit like
French to English :)
The statement I made about motor output was slightly incorrect, but only
cause I typed it wrong with a / between the a and v eg a/v, which reads a
divided by v to some ...sorry.
Shaft output can be defined as AV in minus AV out minus losses is the
correct way to say what I said.
Simplified to numbers and voltage only we can assign reasonable numbers to
the terms and get a better understanding of what it means.
AV in is the power from your battery so lets say its 12 volts.
If the "motor" spins at 1000 rpm when 12 volts is applied to it, then AV out
can be found by spinning the motor from an external drive to 1000 rpm and
measuring the output, so for this scenario lets say at 1000 rpm the voltage
out is 8.
For losses lets add 1 for friction in the bearings and 1 for windage.
So now my shaft output equals 12 - 8 -1 -1 = 2
Now call me a moron if you like, but 8 is back emf , AV out is back emf
....surely im not that stupid ?
Because I am 100% sure im right I will explain what this means ( to me at
least).
For this motor to go faster you have to add voltage so lets add a volt and
redo the math's.
13 - 8 -1 -1 = 3 (additional losses excepted) so you have 3 to accelerate
your motor and in the case of an ev, your car.
Now what im saying is I have figured out how to remove AV out totally from a
motor, lets do the math's
12 -1 -1 = 10
This indicates that I now have 5 times the shaft output that I had before
for the same input, so I need to reduce my duty cycle to stop my motor from
continuing to accelerate by at least 5.
The amperage flow on my motor is constant and other than output being
reduced slightly as speed increases due to resistance from bearings and
windage increasing, I have 5 times the power available to accelerate this as
a standard motor has, but not just from low speed, from any speed the
acceleration will be the same without the need to add more voltage.
Ok so I need to cover amps here just to tidy this up.
If the standard motor draws 100 amps when starting and then tapers off to
say 20 amps at 1000 rpm, my motor is still drawing 100 amps with AV out
removed, so when I say that input hasn't changed im totally aware that the
actual draw is much higher in my motor than the standard, one at 1000 rpm
and without knowing the tech math's to prove it or disprove it im suggesting
that the actual duty cycle to keep this motor down to only 1000 rpm will be
far less than the standard motor because 5 times more of the input power is
going to the shaft and resistance to rotation by both magnetic interaction
and electrical interaction has been removed.
Maybe im stupid, maybe im uninformed, but even the controller for this is
simple, it always runs on 12 volts and it always delivers 100 amps the only
thing it needs to do is change the duty cycle.
I'm really sorry if ive screwed up and wasted your time, but ive checked the
science and I cant see what im getting wrong here.
I had given up posting this and these 2 posts are just me trying to sum up
what im trying to impart since you questioned some of the things I said,
hopefully they will show that im not a loony on a mission.
Garry Stanley
Cable.net.nz
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
By revving the motor and popping the clutch I probably caused a a big spike
and fried the controller. I was stalling the motor so I turned into a
driveway but the damage was already done and it died right there. I backed
down the hill and coasted home. It blew the KSI fuse. I replaced it but
the car is still dead. Looks like I need another controller or a rebuild
that would go to 500 amps. http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/418.html
Here is my car. Any of you Gurus like to comment on this 120v system and
give some advice please on making it a more reliable vehicle in the go
faster and last longer department. It has two strings now. I wouldn't mind
having one string and going higher on voltage. As the batteries die ( Which
Delphi seem to do. I could just take out the bad ones and lower the voltage
slightly. It would however take a better controller. Also someone
mentioned using a contactor to get full pack voltage for the hills.
Lawrence Rhodes.......
Lawrence Rhodes
----- Original Message -----
From: "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2003 5:17 PM
Subject: Re: Sob... I think if fried my motor.
> I was think about this today . if you reved the motor and sliped the
clutch
> would you have more torque that just taking off from o rpm ( I know this
> would keep the controller happy) . as the rpm climes I know there is less
> torque . What I am wondering is if this type of motor reveing clutch
> slipping makes any more toqure that what the motor is making to begin
with.
> Not counting the weight of the flywheel ect. I know it will make some
heat.
>
> dam that clutch's save the controller's
>
> Steve Clunn
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2003 9:58 AM
> Subject: Re: Sob... I think if fried my motor.
>
>
> > Stalling the motor for more than an instant is a very good way
to
> > fry a Curtis. It is also a good way to burn a commutator bar or two.
> > Definitely a no-no in every respect.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
> > \'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > =(___)=
> > U
> > Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sun, 2003-03-23 at 17:43, Rich Rudman wrote:
> As some of us long time listers know I did a solenoid BLDC motor wday
> back in the mid 90s. It was very educational, it did the same things
> that Gary's does, but I was just fooling myself, and I knew it, that's
> why I didn't blast my findings all over this list. With a little more
> home work I found I didn't have a practical clue in making usable
> motors.
OK. Got a little bit of a brain twist here. Do you mean a "piston"
type motor, where the pistons are solenoids??? Or am I way off in my
interpretation of what you said? If that is what you did, do you have
any info on-line about it that I could read? It just sounds like a cool
conceptual thought exercise (I don't care whether it was/is
efficient/practical or not).
> It's funny how the addition of knowledge, can make you feel a WHOLE lot
> Dumber!!!
Amen. My Mom used to always say, "the more I know, the more I realize
how much more I need to know."
TTFN,
Lonnie Borntreger
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Lonnie,
There is a guy here in NZ who has produced a piston style electric motor
using solenoids.
It looked just like an old radial cylinder plane motor.
Unfortunately all the info he had about it on his site has been removed in
favor of a link saying want more info ...press here :(.
I have an interesting design for a piston style motor if you are interested
in playing with this sort of thing.
Drop me a line [EMAIL PROTECTED] if you want to know more.
Garry Stanley
Cable.net.nz
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nicely said Chip. I feel the same way about the Silicon Valley Chapter
site.
-Will
Will Beckett, president
Silicon Valley Chapter, EAA
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Chip Gribben
Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 3:52 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: ZAP RAP FEVER: page to sell or trade your EV
I have to commend Mike on his EV Trading Post site. It's a great site and
provides a needed service.
As far as the there being too many "EVs For Sale" sites and trying to
Regionalize them that may be hard to do.
For example, when we created the EVA/DC site, we just listed Evs for sale in
the Washington DC, Virginia and Maryland areas as a service to local club
members. But the web being what it is, we started getting requests from
owners from other areas including Australia!
I honestly think EAA chapters who also have "For Sale" listings might not
like the idea of removing their pages just so we could have one East Coast
Site and one West Coast site. Because as I mentioned, we use them as a
service for our local membership.
I basically have no interest in competing with Mike's site and it just adds
more responsibility on top of others I already have so I'm basically keeping
it simple and if people request their EVs listed I go ahead and list them.
At some point I would like to add form fields with Required information to
help standardize the information Bruce suggested.
Its also important that owners who have listed their EVs and sold them be
sure to have the webmaster know so they can remove them from the site.
Chip Gribben
EVA/DC Webmaster
http://www.evadc.org
NEDRA Power of DC Racing Coordinator
http://www.powerofdc.com
> From: Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 04:19:55 -0600
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: ZAP RAP FEVER: page to sell or trade your EV
>
> Bruce wrote:
>> I agree that there are too many 'EV trading POST'
>> wannabee sites. There are 10 on the 'EVs for Sale'
>> links on http://www.eaaev.org/eaaevsforsale.html
>
>> <SNIP>
>
>> Some have no information, so have too much information,
>> some have old ads that need to be taken down, and some
>> show ads that are labeled 'sold' (who needs to know
>> it was sold? The added images just slow the loading
>> of the page).
>
> <SNIP>
>
>
>> But having just one site might not work either.
>> How many ads are there?
>> Too many for one webmaster? (people have lives too
>> you know, and these pages are a free service).
>
> <SNIP>
>
>> It is my guess that really only two sites are needed:
>> West and East coast.
>
> Gotta love this thread! I created the EV Tradin' Post because I was
> unhappy with many of the existing sites, both in format and in
> maintenance. Yes, the EV Tradin' Post does show "Sold" ads, but only
> for about a week, then the ads are completely deleted. I do that
> because when I just deleted sold EVs I usually got an email asking
> what happened to the such and such ad. I like the idea of a more
> standardized format, and I will look into trying to use some of your
> points. All I would have to do is modify the input form, but given
> the range of EV related items sold I am not sure it would work.
>
> I don't think the regional idea would work, as it seems EVs do move
> about quite a bit. For example, three local (Kansas City) EVs sold on
> the Tradin' Post. One went to the Washington DC, one to Oregon, and
> one to Tennessee. Another came to KC from Vermont. I think a
> regional post would probably limit that flexibility and leave us
> central folks with no EVs to buy or sell. Maybe we should look into
> creating a multiple web master, single Tradin' Post concept. One site
> with separate listings by region. That would keep the maintenance
> down to something that wouldn't overwhelm any one person, and while
> grouping EVs by regional location it would allow single point access
> to all ads.
>
> To keep the ads current I run a roughly monthly check on all ads.
> When I get no response, the ad gets deleted. I also screen the ads,
> some are just not EV related and don't belong. I am considering
> splitting the Tradin' Post into a for sale page and a wanted page.
> Should I?
>
> It does get to be more than a handful. With the EV Album, the EV
> Tradin' Post, the MAEAA website, my personal EV webpage, the C-Car,
> MAEAA, and TEVan egroups, and the "electric" emblems it is easy for me
> to get behind. I actually took a day off from work this week to try
> and catch up. I think I need about two more days to get even. Of
> course on the side I am trying to get the two Forces back on the road
> and fix my house. It does get to be a bit much. I know Bruce is
> covering even more and I don't know how he does it.
>
> BTW, I will be traveling this week, I leave this morning for Portland,
> Oregon to drive a truckload of furniture back to Kansas City for my
> mother. I will probably not be able to do any Tradin' Post or EV
> Album updates while I am on the road. I will have my laptop along,
> but it is very limited in capability (90 mhz Pentium) and Internet
> access will be a challenge in route. Anyone got a faster one in the
> Portland area you want to give me a great deal on? :^)
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> Mike Chancey,
> '88 Civic EV
> '95 Force (x2)
> Kansas City, Missouri
> EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
> My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
> Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
> Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have heard of the typical motor fault created by brush dust.
Blew it out with compressed air (hold your breath).
Went through the drill isolating everything.
Learned the trick of putting a 100K ohm resistor between your VOM leads so
you don't mistake capacitance for a real leak.
After conferring with the designer and sharing my findings, we have
determined that it's not a fault at all- the charger's the one with a
personal problem. Could be the GFI or the voltage regulator
Pulled it. Shipping it in the morning. Already twiddling my thumbs.
Bright side: At least Soleq is still around and willing to fix their old
product!
J. Marvin Campbell
Culver City, CA
PS: Any other EV Tech wannabees in the LA area?
"If ignorance is bliss...why am I so unhappy?"
on 3/23/03 1:13 PM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List at [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
> Next test, try isolating the motor/controller from the pack. Lee wrote
> several years back about DC motors becoming large sources for ground faults
> because of the copper oxide dust (forgive me if I misspeak, Lee - can't find
> the post to quote from). In any case, I ended up putting a contactor that
> disconnected the motor from the pack when the key switch is off, and the
> ground fault problem disappeared.
>
> JRAB
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
All,
The 691wh listed for the NiZn is more than double that of the yellow
top's rating of 312wh. So does this mean that if I have a string of twelve
MB80s, I'll have at least as much total energy as two strings of 12 yellow
tops run in parralel? Are these the Evercell NiZn? Where are they selling
for only $280? How many T-145s is this equivalent to? Any update on the
cycle tests being conducted by one of the listers? Thanks guys.
John Shelton
Current pricing, based on recent information, small quantities. Shows that
NiZn and LiIon are competative for inital cost and have longer life that
PbA. Comparison based on YT size form.:
PbA - Optima YT
price $120
weight 45lb
voltage 12v nominal (13.2v rest, charges up to 14.9v)
capacity 55ah (C/20; 25ah at C/1 usable max)
storage 12v*26ah=312wh
price/wh $0.385
cyles 300 (spec)
NiZn - MB80-12-8
price $280
weight 36lb
voltage 12.8v (charges up to 16.0v)
capacity 68ah (0.8*68ah=54ah usable max)
storage 12.8v*54ah=691wh
price/wh $0.405
cyles 500 (spec)
LiIon - TS-LP8581A (4 cells)
price $520 (=4*130)
weight 27lb
voltage 14.8v nominal (=4*3.7v, charges up to 4*4.3=17.2v)
capacity 100ah (0.8*100ah=80ah usable max)
storage 14.8v*80ah=1184wh
price/wh $0.439
cyles 500 (spec)
LiIon - TS-LP90A (4 cells)
price $460 (=4*115)
weight 21lb
voltage 14.8v nominal (=4*3.7v)
capacity 90ah (0.8*100ah=72ah usable max)
storage 14.8v*72ah=1066wh
price/wh $0.432
cyles 500 (spec)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
First of all if the DC/DC is powerful enough to run your lights then you
aren't storing anything in the battery so the battery efficiency doesn't
come into the equation.
Secondly, what the heck are you running that adds up to 360 watts of
lights? Do you run the spot lights and fog lights as well as a slew of
side marker lights?
Standard high beams are 60 watts per bulb. Both high beams on = 120
watts. Xenon lights draw about 75 watts for the pair, net gain is 45
watts. Assuming a typical 260 watts per mile conversion this gains you
300 yards per hour of operation.
Red marker lights draw approx 0.5 watts each, and yellow marker lights
draw about 1 amp. We are talking less than 10 amps for all of them.
My total loss system is good for well over 2 hours. Maximum drive time
is perhaps 1.5 hrs if I drive at 35 mph. Granted Xenons would give a
tiny bit more run time, but not much and I don't use what I have anyway.
On Sun, 2003-03-23 at 14:13, Seth wrote:
> If you are driving a vehicle that has 360 watts of combined lamps at
> night, with a DC-DC efficiency of 85% and an aux battery storage
> efficiency of 90%, then that is 360/.85/.9 or 470 watts. That's 1-3
> miles depending on your conversion, assuming you are travelling at 60
> mph. If you are doing 30 mph, then the mileage figure doubles becasue
> the time doubles. So if you can get half that back, then some might
> consider it worth it. I would think it would be of some interest with a
> total loss system as you can go longer with the standard battery or
> reduce the mass of the battery.
>
> So they aren't as effective as say LRR tires, but when you drive a more
> efficient EV, like 140 watt-hours per mile, the savings show up more.
> Certainly further down the list, but also easier to do, as LED stop/turn
> lamp replacements are pretty available.
>
>
> For more efficiency ideas, try here: (where I got the Xenon/LED idea)
>
> http://www.vwvortex.com/news/04_02/04_17/page2.shtml
>
>
> It is about the VW car that was aiming for 100km/ liter diesel
> consumption. Something like 230mpg.
>
> Seth
>
> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> >
> > No offense but LED lights will extend your range by about 10 feet,
> > hardly worth the extra expense.
> >
> > Ditto the headlights, standard headlights use about 120 watts. For a
> > typical conversion this is about 1/2 mile range for one hour of use.
> > Xenons might get you an extra couple hundred yards.
> >
> > FWIW: I use a total loss ancillary power system (no DC/DC) so these
> > ideas don't help range at all.
> >
> > The rest are pretty good ideas.
> >
> > >
> > > To get to a 70 mile range, I would suggest
> > >
> > > a) slow down
> > > b) LRR tires
> > > c) reduce the drag coefficient
> > > d) reduce the frontal area
> > > e) you could do lexan rear windows, if it is legal in your state
> > > f) lighter (cheap aftermarket) front fenders and hood
> > > g) LED marker/tail/turn/ stop lights
> > > h) xenon headlamps
> > > i) lighter lubricating oils
> > > j) removal of all sound deadening on the under floor, behind kick panels
> > > k) if you only use 2nd, 4th and reverse, then remove 1st, 3rd and 5th
> > > from the transmission.
> > > l) investigate a lower loss rear axle, I believe Solectria E-10s had a
> > > custom S-10 axle made, for example
> > > m) regen
> > > n) obtain a motor/controller efficiency map and use it to change your
> > > driving habits
> > > o) in lieu of regen, use an axle driven alternator to charge the 12V
> > > battery (like some stock cars) only when drive motor throttle input is
> > > zero, and throw out the DC/DC, supplement with a roof PV panel
> > >
>
> --
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
--
EVDL
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Told you guys. Rather then learning how it actually works, he likes to
make it up on his own.
On Sun, 2003-03-23 at 15:32, garry wrote:
> Hi Lee,
>
> I really appreciate what you guys are trying to do and if you will bear with
> me one more time I will try and lay this out so you cant mistake what im
> saying.
>
> 2 magnets with their north (like) poles facing each other repel.
>
> 2 magnets with one north and one south pole facing each other attract.
>
> This is the basis of an electric motor.
>
> An electric motor can be made to operate by either pulling 2 magnetic fields
> causing the rotor to turn or pushing 2 magnetic fields, there is a third way
> of course and that is one magnet pulling a bit of metal, but I don't think
> your motors are going to be built this way (yet).
>
> When a magnet approaches a coil (that has a closed circuit) it generates a
> current in the coil, the current in the coil causes a pole to form on the
> coils ends.
>
> A north pole magnet approaching a coil will generate a north pole ....every
> time (Lenz).
>
> A south pole magnet approaching a coil will generate a south pole .....
> every time (Lenz)
>
> A north pole magnet exiting a coil will generate a south pole .... every
> time (Lenz)
>
> A south pole magnet exiting a coil will generate a north pole ...every time
> (Lenz)
>
> Now call it what you will, but every time a magnetic field encounters
> another magnetic field resistance occurs, this is just the way of the world
> and it is extremely relevant to motors which use only electro magnets
> because, in order for and electro magnet to produce the flux field, that is
> causing the resistance, it MUST have a closed circuit.
>
> I like to call what I have described above "magnetic resistance to
> rotation", because each field created by the interacting magnetic fields is
> working against the motor accelerating in its direction of rotation, and
> while I have used magnets here to explain this to you, you have in your
> motor double this, because each of your magnets is a coil and all coils
> react like this to magnetic fields.
>
> Ok now its time for thinking because this gets worse.
>
> First lets choose a motor type and say that our motor is a "pull" motor.
> We know, if we want to pull a magnet to a coil that we will need unlike
> poles, a south to attract a north pole magnet, but I just told you that, in
> the real world, when the north pole magnet gets near the coil, it makes a
> north pole as a result of the current flow, so that means the current in the
> coil is flowing in exactly the opposite direction of the current we need,
> because we know that, in a coil, reversing the current changes the poles and
> we know that the north pole magnet makes a north pole so we can deduce from
> that also that the current is flowing the wrong way to make the south pole
> we need to pull this magnet to our coil.
>
> In order to make a south pole on this coil, to pull the north pole magnet,
> my power must first overcome the generated current to change the pole of the
> coil, but just because the coil has overcome the generated current with this
> input current doesn't mean its not there any more, something about you cant
> destroy energy I think, its still there and current that could otherwise be
> put to work in the motor as shaft output is being used to overcome it.
>
> I like to call this electrical resistance.
>
> My technical description is certainly inadequate, but my science is sound
> and my understanding of how a motor works is very practical.
>
> Garry Stanley
>
> Cable.net.nz
>
>
>
--
EVDL
--- End Message ---
