EV Digest 2677
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Evercells versus Yellow tops
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Evercells versus Yellow tops
by Gordon Niessen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Tom and Ray on Hydrogen cars.
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Escort EV limbo?
by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Escort EV limbo?
by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Escort EV limbo?
by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: That time of the year again...
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: AC controllers
by "Shelton, John D. AW2" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: That time of the year again...
by "Michael A. Radtke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Escort EV limbo?
by harsha godavari <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: New and improved bumper sticker design
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Evercells versus Yellow tops
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Evercells versus Yellow tops
by "Shelton, John D. AW2" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: New and improved bumper sticker design
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
15) Re: Evercells versus Yellow tops
by "Tim Clevenger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Vodka Fuel Cell?!
by Michael Hurley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
In really broad terms, this is what most nickel based batteries do. They
are as a rule, much less affected by the rate at which the energy is
withdrawn, and much less affected by lower temperatures. Not immune (it
gets really cold near Boston) but less affected. NiMH starts to get soft
at 20F, for example. Lead by comparison, is near useless at that
temperature. I have ridden in vehicles powered by both chemistries and
there is a big difference when it is cold.
I am not aware of a nickel based chemistry that likes to be hotter than
lead, though.
I don't own a NiCad car, but the batteries I own are rated for capacity
at 1C, rate, not C/20. I haven't discharged them at 5C or C/20 yet, so I
cannnot personally verify whay my cells do. at those rates. Yet. But I
always hear about them suffering little/ no Peukert effect.
Seth
Thomas Shay wrote:
>
> This sounds too good to be true. You're telling us, John, that
> Evercels suffer no loss of amphour capacity at the high currents
> that an EV demands and no loss of capacity at lower temperature.
> I hope you're right. Are these untested claims or has somebody
> actually tested and proved that amphour capacity is not affected
> by high current drain or reduced temperature?
>
> Tom Shay
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Wayland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, March 24, 2003 3:37 PM
> Subject: Re: Evercells versus Yellow tops
>
> > Hello to All,
> >
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >
> > > What's wrong with my math ?
> > > NiZn does better in cold weather than Lead-Acid, but what about normal
> 70
> > > F weather ? Isn't NiZn only about twice the energy density as
> > > Lead-Acid
> > > (30 whrs/pound verse 15 whrs/pound) in 70 F weather ?
> >
> > Here's what's wrong with your math...it's called Peukart's Curve. On
> paper, not taking
> > this effect into consideration, NiZN has roughly double the energy density
> as lead acid.
> > So...'on paper', if you take an Optima at 65 ahrs and really baby it and
> only pull a wimpy
> > 3.25 amps form it for 20 hours, yes, you will get all of its ahr
> rating...do the same
> > thing to a NiZN battery, say a 40 lb. 87 ahr model, and you will also get
> its rated ahrs.
> > As is often the case though, in the real world, away from bench racing and
> spec sheets,
> > things are way different. That same 65 ahr lead acid battery, when beefy
> EV type currents
> > are pulled, thanks to Peukart's Curve, falls to just 25 ahrs., but the 87
> ahr NiZN
> > battery, which is largely immune to such an effect, can give nearly the
> same 87 ahrs,
> > even at EV currents.
> >
> > When battery 'chemistry' is merely compared, no regard is given to the
> application, and so
> > lead acid looks better than it really is. If a lead acid battery is rated
> at a 20 hour
> > rate (useless when talking EVs), and if it is tested and discharged at
> that rate, it will
> > in fact, deliver its rated whrs/pound. This same battery, however, will
> 'not' deliver that
> > same whrs/pound at the one hour rate...not even close.....a NiZN battery
> will.
> >
> > At the one-two hour rate, a NiZN battery is about three times the energy
> density as a
> > comparably sized lead acid battery....if both batteries are cold, say at
> 32 degrees, the
> > NiZN jumps way ahead of lead acid, at nearly six times the deliverable EV
> current ahrs!
> >
> > See Ya.....John Wayland
> >
> >
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I had the impression that the NiZN did not like the beefy current levels
that most EV's pull. Isn't its internal resistance much higher? Which,
when in a 13-18 battery string in compounded. Can you even draw the 200+
amps from a NiZN?
At 05:37 PM 3/24/2003, you wrote:
Hello to All,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> What's wrong with my math ?
> NiZn does better in cold weather than Lead-Acid, but what about normal 70
> F weather ? Isn't NiZn only about twice the energy density as
> Lead-Acid
> (30 whrs/pound verse 15 whrs/pound) in 70 F weather ?
Here's what's wrong with your math...it's called Peukart's Curve. On
paper, not taking
this effect into consideration, NiZN has roughly double the energy density
as lead acid.
So...'on paper', if you take an Optima at 65 ahrs and really baby it and
only pull a wimpy
3.25 amps form it for 20 hours, yes, you will get all of its ahr
rating...do the same
thing to a NiZN battery, say a 40 lb. 87 ahr model, and you will also get
its rated ahrs.
As is often the case though, in the real world, away from bench racing and
spec sheets,
things are way different. That same 65 ahr lead acid battery, when beefy
EV type currents
are pulled, thanks to Peukart's Curve, falls to just 25 ahrs., but the 87
ahr NiZN
battery, which is largely immune to such an effect, can give nearly the
same 87 ahrs,
even at EV currents.
When battery 'chemistry' is merely compared, no regard is given to the
application, and so
lead acid looks better than it really is. If a lead acid battery is rated
at a 20 hour
rate (useless when talking EVs), and if it is tested and discharged at
that rate, it will
in fact, deliver its rated whrs/pound. This same battery, however, will
'not' deliver that
same whrs/pound at the one hour rate...not even close.....a NiZN battery will.
At the one-two hour rate, a NiZN battery is about three times the energy
density as a
comparably sized lead acid battery....if both batteries are cold, say at
32 degrees, the
NiZN jumps way ahead of lead acid, at nearly six times the deliverable EV
current ahrs!
See Ya.....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I love these guys, listen to them every Saturday at 10am on NPR and Sunday
at 11am. Also Garrison Kheiler of Prarie Home Companion at 6pm on Saturday
and noon on Sunday made similar jabs about oil (and duct tape). <Check your
local NPR station for syndicated listings.>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, March 24, 2003 12:50 PM
Subject: Re: Tom and Ray on Hydrogen cars.
> At this moment I am forwarding this to the Tappet Bros. Lawrence
> Rhodes.......
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, March 24, 2003 4:44 AM
> Subject: RE: Tom and Ray on Hydrogen cars.
>
>
> > Lawrence Rhodes posted:
> >
> > An astoundingly clear-headed synopsis of the government-endorsed push
> > toward fuel cell vehicles, considering the "Tappet Bros." are deeply
> > entrenched in the ICE world:
> >
> > > Dear Tom and Ray:
> > >
> > > President Bush talked about a "hydrogen car" in his State of
> > > the Union address. Is this a realistic possibility during the
> > > Bush administration? -- Jim
> > >
> > > Ray: Maybe during the Jenna Bush administration, Jim. The
> > > technology itself works, but people "in the know" say it's
> > > going to be at least 20 years before hydrogen-powered cars
> > > are viable on a large scale -- if then.
> > >
> > > Tom: The main problems are: (1) the fuel cell "stacks" are
> > > still incredibly expensive to build, (2) the range of the
> > > cars is insufficient and (3) there's no national
> > > infrastructure (like gas stations) to support hydrogen. So
> > > it's not going to happen anytime soon.
> > >
> > > Ray: So, why is the president talking about hydrogen-powered
> > > cars? Well, in my humble opinion, he's creating a distraction.
> > >
> > > Tom: I think so, too. You probably know that we now import
> > > boatloads of foreign oil every day. And almost everybody
> > > agrees that this is not a good thing (except for the
> > > countries that sell us the oil). So what do you do about it?
> > >
> > > Ray: Well, you can try to find more oil here at home, by
> > > drilling in Alaska's forests, for instance. Or you can force
> > > people to use less oil. The president knows that both of
> > > these options are pretty unpopular. So he's doing what any
> > > good politician would do: He's changing the subject.
> > >
> > > Tom: Here's another reason why he might want to distract us
> > > from thoughts of fuel economy and foreign oil. With no
> > > pressure on American car companies to increase gas mileage,
> > > the Japanese have taken a significant lead in the most
> > > important new propulsion technology in decades: hybrid
> > > engines. Hybrid engines use battery power some of the time
> > > and gasoline power at other times, and they never have to be
> > > plugged in. They're a great way to increase mileage without
> > > sacrificing power or convenience. And you're going to see
> > > Americans adopting them in big numbers over the next five to 10 years.
> > >
> > > Ray: Who makes the best-selling hybrid cars in America? Honda
> > > and Toyota. So, instead of urging America to make more
> > > fuel-efficient cars and cut down on foreign oil by raising
> > > the Corporate Average Fuel Economy standards, or urging U.S.
> > > manufacturers to catch up with the Japanese on hybrids --
> > > which would make a huge difference right away -- the
> > > president's talk about hydrogen cars is, essentially, the old
> > > "Hey, everybody, look over there!"
> > >
> > >
> > > � 2003 by Tom and Ray Magliozzi and Doug Berman Distributed
> > > by King Features Syndicate, Inc.
> >
> > I gotta give these guys credit for open minds and a fully-functioning BS
> > detector. I wonder if they might be receptive to challenging the false
> > but widely held belief that EVs are impractical? Where are these guys
> > located? Is there anyone nearby who could loan them a nice conversion
> > EV for a week or so?
> >
> > Wouldn't it be nice to hear these guys say something like:
> >
> > ----------
> > Tom: Thanks to loyal listener and electric vehicle owner John Q.
> > Lotsawatts, my electrically-challenged brother and I got to live with a
> > real electric car for a week. Let me tell you something, when those
> > automotive journalists tell you the engine in some new car is as smooth
> > as an electric motor, they no idea what they're talking about. Man!
> > Talk about eerily smooth and silent! This was no sports car, but I was
> > surprised by the acceleration too.
> >
> > Ray: Yeah, and I have to admit I was more worried about the range than I
> > should have been. This car is a converted econobox, so it only has 40
> > miles of useful range. But you know what? I only drive maybe 20 miles
> > a day, and the car starts out fully charged every morning. This would
> > make a *great* second car.
> > ----------
> >
> > OK, maybe I'm dreaming. But it couldn't hurt to ask. Anyone know where
> > these guys are?
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi, Bob.
>1) Nobody gives a darn about the price of parts. $6K
>buys a 96' Honda Civic with reasonable miles.
I think If they are looking for an EV, they've already decided to pass on
the used ICE scene. I would think the fact they don't have to put any
effort into it would be worth something, but you never know...
>2) Most EVs for sale sell between 3-5K. Ask Mike
>Chancey if he can verify this.
Good idea. Mike, any ballpark figures?
>3) Have you considered stripping it, and lowering the
>price? Basically, if you can get the price of the
>adapter plate for the glider, you'll be coming out
>ahead, since the depreciation on selling EVs is so
>high. Someone might appreciate that, and the battery
>racks being already there!
I hadn't thought of that. Now that I think on it, it seems I have kind of
been aiming at a first-time EV'er. You know, first EV, simple, no work to
put into it, low price compared to a new or slightly used ICE, etc.
>4) How are gas prices in your area? Lots of
>refineries? Ethanol mixed?
$1.45 this morning on the way to work. Don't get me started on my state, or
this will turn into a VERY long post;-)
>5) Sorry, but Escorts aren't sexy.
No kidding:-) But like I said before, for a first time EV, it's great.
that's why I bought it a couple of years ago.
Unfortunately, my employer will not allow charging at the new location, so
it gets little use (33 miles to work, 50 mile range max. Couldn't make it
back without a charge at work). That's why I'm considering selling it. I
learned a lot during the rebuild and by commuting with it for a while, and
now I'm ready to do one from scratch.
>My suggestion is to lower it $1500, wait 6 months, and
>I really think you'll be sold, depending how much
>Iraqi oil is on the market then...
>Best to you,
I guess I could handle that. I'll be closer to a final decision next month.
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi, Steve.
>My 2nd conversion was a Mercury Lynx which is almost the same as yours. I
>realy liked that car
Want another? :-)
>> I'm needing to sell my escort EV to make room (and $) for a new
>>conversion
>>project.
>Which is going to be ?
Well, I didn't want to spill the beans yet, since it's just in the planning
stages, but what do you think of...
VW Karmann Ghia
Metricmind AC system
high voltage evercell pack (maybe starting off with a "training pack" of
AGM's)
PFC-20 charger
>> Unfortunately, my efforts to sell it before the rebuild with an ad
>> on the tradin' post which lingered a few months,
>> and a few leads I've had
>> since ti was rebuilt, have all proved fruitless.
>I'm sure not fruitless . The people who came and looked at your EV may
>never
>have seen one before. Now they know
>there's another way.
True. There is a lot of interest, but in this state, not many want to take
action on it.
>> I've been asking $6000.
>> It's at www.evalbum.com/221.html. I'd like to ask the list if I'm
>> asking too much.
>When you were rebuilding this car were you still thinking of selling it .
>?
Kind of. At the time, my commute was out of range (I was transferred to
another facility). Now, we have moved again, and it is back in range, but
they won't let me charge at work, which I need to in order to make it back.
>you spent a lot of time getting things just right , why is that not worth
>something.
Well, *I* think it is, but its hard getting that through to the potential
buyer. I wouldn't pay the total of $10-12K for a used escort, and I don't
expect anyone else to, either. That's why if I can cover my costs or a
little more, I'll be happy. I'll even be OK with a slight loss.
>> I calculated that $6000 would just about cover the cost of the electric
>> components.
>and nothing for your labor?
If I charged for my labor, It would never sell. I need it to because I
simply cannot justify more than 1 EV.
Here's the deal (and you know this, I'm sure), most EV's are labors of love,
and are sold at cost or less just to see them go to a good EV-loving home
(and to start another project!) The work is it's own reward. I learned a
lot, and I intend to put that to use on the next one and keep getting
better.
>On the parts and ware , To me it seems that most (not all) EV parts
>meters,
>motors, dc/dc convetters and controllers don't really ware out but meet
>with
>some user abuse and then die quickly. I think if the car has been on the
>road 20 k that thats a good sighn. how many EV miles dose it have. ?
I agree. One of the major pluses of EV's for me is they need very little
maintenance.
I'm not sure on the total no. of miles, as I didn't have a good complete
history when I bought it. I know it was originally operated by the City of
Vernon, CA as a city vehicle, and that Solar Electric Co. converted it.
After that, an individual in Oregon bought it and stored it for a year. I
bought it, rebuilt the charger, and commuted in it about a year before the
original Trojan battery pack died. I had the money for new batteries and
upgrades like the heating system, but not to change controller, charger,
etc., so I used the existing components. Of course, I learned a lesson in
that, because I wound up completely rebuilding it. The lesson is - you may
as well upgrade, because you'll wind up doing a lot more than you thought
anyway.
Back to the point, the odometer is at around 50K miles. I think about
20-30K of that has been electric, but without knowing all of its history, I
can't be sure. I also don't know if it has rolled over at any time. The
body is in awfully good shape if it has.
>> Oh, it has new batteries (less than 75 cycles), a battery heater system,
and
>> is located in the middle of the country, in Oklahoma.
>This is another plus as sombody just getting into EV's may not brake in
>there pack right.
Yep.
>>how many hours do you have into it ?
>>Steve Clunn
I didn't keep track, but it's a lot. I'm sure you have a lot in all of
yours, too.
IMPORTANT - THIS MESSAGE (INCLUDING ANY ATTACHMENTS) IS INTENDED ONLY FOR
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi, Peter.
>$6000 is a good price to the right buyer. The problem is locating that
>buyer. Most conversions sell for less than that.
>My truck is a similar age and has similar components, the differences
>are GE controller instead of the Curtis and no DC/DC or battery
>heaters. I paid $3500 for it with 2 year old batteries.
>Now these are just my opinions so take them with a grain of salt. Most
>EV buyers are cheap. They want an EV cheap and are more willing to buy a
>$2000 EV with batteries that are almost worn out than a $3000 EV with
new batteries. They figure they can drive around a bit on the old
>batteries and buy new ones later.
>My truck has 8V batteries, common list wisdom says that 8V batteries are
>good for about 2 years. I figured I'd buy the truck and replace the
>batteries later, well it's two years later and I'm really thinking
>seriously about replacing those batteries now, range is down under 20
>miles.
Yeah, my experience was similar. It made it about a year (until winter)
with a pack that had sat for over a year, and I don't know what its usage
history was before then. I thought that wasn't too bad at all.
>The point is that your car is probably worth $6000, but most folks will
>see that price and decide to sacrifice some of the creature comforts
>(like battery heaters) and buy a vehicle that costs 1/2 as much.
Then when winter comes, they will reconsider the wisdom of that choice. I
know I did.
>FWIW phoenix EAA sold a Soleq built '93 escort with a GE regen system,
>air conditioning, 3kw heater, standby heating, sealed batteries, yada
>yada yada for $8000.
>Took them over a year though. It's twin (without AC) is still up for
>sale and has been for 1.5 years.
I remember those. Nice cars.
>So you might get your price if you are patient long enough, otherwise
>drop the price.
That's what Bob recommended. I'm considering it. I'll have to figure out
how low I can go.
Thanks!
IMPORTANT - THIS MESSAGE (INCLUDING ANY ATTACHMENTS) IS INTENDED ONLY FOR
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CONTAIN INFORMATION THAT IS PRIVILEGED, CONFIDENTIAL AND EXEMPT FROM
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TAKING OF ANY ACTION BASED ON IT IS STRICTLY PROHIBITED. THANK YOU.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> Greetings all,
>
> With the beginning of spring, now has come the time for that time honored (but
> rarely enjoyed) task of mowing the lawn.
>
> Last year my mower died, and my father gave me an old 3.25 hp Lowes (briggs) mower.
>
> It only barely runs and the smell... well you know.
>
> I have talked the wife into letting me replace it with an electric.
>
> We have a 1.75 acre yard. About 1/2 of it is open field, the rest has lots of
> obsticles like bushes, trees and the like.
>
> Some years ago, I mowed the yard with a rechargable ryobi, but it took me three
> days to do it, and that was if I never let the grass get too high. My wife
> never could push the ryobi. It was too heavy.
>
> So, what I need is an easy to push (cause with my allergies, the wife and I have
> to share mowing duties) electric with fairly good range.
>
> OR an elec-trak or other electric riding.
>
> So...
>
> Anyone got any suggestions or a good mower for sale?
What about a corded electric? They are the lightest mower you can get.
Once you figure out a pattern so you don't run over the cord, they are
easy to use. I used this for years.
Now I have an Electrak (GE electric garden tractor with mower). They are
available used, and very well built.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Would this be a good arrangement for a go-kart ev? What if you you three 12
volt deep cycle batteries and rotate them. Not too difficult a task with a
go-kart.
John Shelton
-----Original Message-----
From: Peter VanDerWal [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, March 24, 2003 2:08 AM
To: EV
Subject: Re: AC controllers
Oops, forgot to mention.
Contactor controllers normally rearrange the pack into series/parallel
setups.
IE. a 48V pack of 4 12V batteries will be arranged as all four in
parallel for 12V, two sets of two for 24V and all together for 48V. Plus
usually a starting resistor in series with the 12V setup. This gives
four steps, plus stop.
Tapping the pack at individual batteries like you suggest means that
none of the batteries will be discharged to the same level. The first
battery gets used all of the time and the one at the other end of the
string hardly ever gets used.
This causes the pack to become unbalanced(a bad thing). Your range will
be limited by the first battery which will run out fairly quickly, while
1/2 the batteries are hardly discharged at all.
Range from this setup will be about 1/4 the range of using all the
batteries as one pack with a PWM controller or a series/parallel
contactor controller.
> > various voltages. For example, with seven batteries in the bank, it is
> > possible to rearrange them to get seven voltage steps, from zero volts
to
> > the voltage of all the batteries in series. With 15 batteries, 15 steps
are
> > possible. The trick is to rearrange the batteries without using an
> > unreasonable number of contactors. See
> > http://www.geocities.com/thomassonmj/electric_drive.html for a diagram
of
> > how this may be done. http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/439.html shows
the
> > test platform. I started small with a minibike and only 3 voltage steps
> > (using three 12 volt batteries) in the control system. The three relays
and
> > a multiposition switch comprising the control system cost less than $20.
> > Electro-mechanical relays are much easier to trouble shoot and repair
that
> > electronic FET's and integrated circuits, and more efficient. Solid
state
> > relays could also be used. Regenerative braking occurs automatically as
you
> > back off the throttle, or not at all if the throttle goes immediately to
> > zero.
> >
> > Criticize freely... I can take it!
> >
> > Thanks for your feedback.
> >
> > Mark Thomasson
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2003 6:59 PM
> > Subject: Re: AC controllers
> >
> >
> > > Hi Mark
> > ...................
> > >
> > > Tell us of your project? what do you want it to do?
> > >
> > ....................
> >
> --
> EVDL
>
--
EVDL
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
James and the group,
My son likes to collect scrap mowers from junk piles and fix them by
trading parts. He then either gives them away, or sells them with the
proceeds going to charity. Because of his activities, I have lots of
experience with walk behind mowers.
- Gas mowers are smelly, dirty, noisy, unreliable, and high
maintenance.
- Corded electrics are quiet, clean, reliable, light, and low
maintenance. But, then there's the cord.
- Cordless electrics are like the corded, but very heavy, limited
range, and expensive when those batteries need replacement.
- Push mowers are very quiet, clean, reliable, light, and
some maintenance. Little dust and pollen thrown about.
The cord. Someone showed me how to deal with the cord. Run the cord up
one arm, over the neck, down the other arm. That keeps the cord right
at your hand should you need to move it around and gives you tactile
feedback about what the cord may be doing. Mow back and forth and
always turn away from the power source.
Pushing. Modern push mowers are as easy to push as a light power
mower. They don't cut quite as well and should be sharpened about once
a year. you can sharpen them yourself in about 15 minutes with no
special tools, but send email if you are interested in the procedure
since it doesn't belong on this list.
My choice. I use a push mower unless I'm concerned about the clippings,
i.e. tall grass or lots of leaves. For that, I use a mulching corded
electric.
Mike - Phoenix, AZ
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David:
May I present some thoughts on this...?
Buyer: Would this be a person who already owns/built one
or more EVs? If so what is he looking for that he
does not have or cannot build?
If it is a first time buyer, he would be concerned
about the range, source of repair facilities,
parts availabilty in spite of all the psyching up
of all the pros of an EV. Who is going to test the
EV (unlike an ICE that one can take to the nearest
garage) and give him an evaluation? Ofcourse we
assume that the owner is scrupulously honest, yet
one oversight is all that it takes to frustrate
a newbie.
Please don't think I am being nasty. I am a lurker here
and I didnot see these points considered. Untill EV's
become more common these will plague the recycling of
EVs. It is not easy to ship them across the border to
Canada since the canuck dollar is worth roughly 0.50USD
and our winters are much harsher & longer :-(
Regards
Harsha Godavari
Price: If the buyer is from out of state, there is the
problem of transporting the EV. I seem to have
read (on this list) that depending on the
distance, it can add 800.00 USD or more! The
chances of a local buyer are slim considering
how few enthusiasts are there.
David Brandt wrote:
>
> Hi, Bob.
>
> >1) Nobody gives a darn about the price of parts. $6K
> >buys a 96' Honda Civic with reasonable miles.
>
> I think If they are looking for an EV, they've already decided to pass on
> the used ICE scene. I would think the fact they don't have to put any
> effort into it would be worth something, but you never know...
>
> >2) Most EVs for sale sell between 3-5K. Ask Mike
> >Chancey if he can verify this.
>
> Good idea. Mike, any ballpark figures?
>
> >3) Have you considered stripping it, and lowering the
> >price? Basically, if you can get the price of the
> >adapter plate for the glider, you'll be coming out
> >ahead, since the depreciation on selling EVs is so
> >high. Someone might appreciate that, and the battery
> >racks being already there!
>
> I hadn't thought of that. Now that I think on it, it seems I have kind of
> been aiming at a first-time EV'er. You know, first EV, simple, no work to
> put into it, low price compared to a new or slightly used ICE, etc.
>
> >4) How are gas prices in your area? Lots of
> >refineries? Ethanol mixed?
>
> $1.45 this morning on the way to work. Don't get me started on my state, or
> this will turn into a VERY long post;-)
>
> >5) Sorry, but Escorts aren't sexy.
>
> No kidding:-) But like I said before, for a first time EV, it's great.
> that's why I bought it a couple of years ago.
>
> Unfortunately, my employer will not allow charging at the new location, so
> it gets little use (33 miles to work, 50 mile range max. Couldn't make it
> back without a charge at work). That's why I'm considering selling it. I
> learned a lot during the rebuild and by commuting with it for a while, and
> now I'm ready to do one from scratch.
>
> >My suggestion is to lower it $1500, wait 6 months, and
> >I really think you'll be sold, depending how much
> >Iraqi oil is on the market then...
> >Best to you,
>
> I guess I could handle that. I'll be closer to a final decision next month.
>
> IMPORTANT - THIS MESSAGE (INCLUDING ANY ATTACHMENTS) IS INTENDED ONLY FOR
> THE USE OF THE INDIVIDUAL OR ENTITY TO WHICH IT IS ADDRESSED, AND MAY
> CONTAIN INFORMATION THAT IS PRIVILEGED, CONFIDENTIAL AND EXEMPT FROM
> DISCLOSURE UNDER APPLICABLE LAW. IF YOU ARE NOT THE INTENDED RECIPIENT, YOU
> SHOULD DELETE THIS MESSAGE IMMEDIATELY AND YOU ARE HEREBY NOTIFIED THAT ANY
> READING, DISSEMINATION, DISTRIBUTION OR COPYING OF THIS MESSAGE, OR THE
> TAKING OF ANY ACTION BASED ON IT IS STRICTLY PROHIBITED. THANK YOU.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Grannes, Dean wrote:
>
> Folks,
>
> Many thanks to Chip Gribben for helping clean up (and improve) my
> original bumper sticker design. The latest version is again posted at:
>
> http://www.geocities.com/ironstephanie
>
> There may be one final revision to adjust the size and/or aspect ratio
> depending upon what the printer says.
>
> We took off the "100%" text after some discussion about our electrical
> energy mix. I like this new design better.
>
> I have a meeting with the printer today. The final revision will go in
> by Monday. I should know by the end of today what kind of time frame
> and costs we are looking at (note that I will be selling these at cost).
> I've already gotten a few order requests. Feel free to submit more
> (off-list).
I wanted to order a couple, but lost track of your email with the final
cost and where to mail my check. Could you refresh my memory?
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Thomas Shay wrote:
> You're telling us, John, that
> Evercels suffer no loss of amphour capacity at the high currents
> that an EV demands and no loss of capacity at lower temperature.
> I hope you're right.
You have to 'carefully' read what I write. I did not say that 'Evercells suffer no
loss of
amphour capacity at the high currents
that an EV demands'....I said what you quoted from me in your post:
>the 87 ahr NiZN battery, which is largely immune to such an effect, can give nearly
>the
>same 87 ahrs, even at EV currents.
Note the phrase 'largely immune to such an effect' which doesn't say 'totally immune',
and
in reference to ahr capacity at EV style currents 'nearly the
same', which does not say 'no loss of amphour capacity'. Sure, the one hour rate for
an
Evercell is less than its 20 hour rate, but it's pretty damn close! Look at the
whopping
difference though for a lead acid type!
> Are these untested claims or has somebody
> actually tested and proved that amphour capacity is not affected
> by high current drain or reduced temperature?
>
> Tom Shay
Tom, where have you been? Are you skipping messages on the EVDL? This indeed, has been
'actually tested and proved'...I suggest you go back and read the myriad of posts from
myself, Sheer, Rudman, etc. Sheer has been out there, trudging away with his Evercell
powered Honda, and a year ago, was reporting 100 mile ranges in 29-32 degree weather,
with a mere 800 lbs. of batteries!
>From Gordon Neissen:
>I had the impression that the NiZN did not like the beefy current levels
>that most EV's pull.
Again, one has to carefully read what I write. I had made the comparison between 20 hr
rated lead acid batteries and a current of less than 5 amps to actually produce that
rating, vs what I had followed with:
>That same 65 ahr lead acid battery, when beefy EV type currents
>are pulled, thanks to Peukart's Curve, falls to just 25 ahrs., but the 87 ahr NiZN
>battery, which is largely immune to such an effect, can give nearly the same 87 ahrs,
>even at EV currents.
A 50 mph EV cruise current of 50-75 amps 'IS' beefy, compared to a wimpy 3.25 amps,
which
was the amperage draw comparison point I was making.
I did not say that Evercells can make the huge 500-1200 amp discharges with the same
urgency as an Optima, and in fact, I even covered this, too:
>For a mid voltage EV (144V-156V) with strong acceleration and terrific high speed
>power,
>the Evercells pale next to YT's for high current juice. My own Blue Meanie accelerates
>hard because it is very light (2340 lbs.) and yet has a mid level 156V system that
>uses
up
>to 1200 amps for making big HP and torque. In this case, Optimas rein supreme for
>acceleration.
Evercells 'can' make 400-500 amps for bursts of acceleration with no real damage...pull
that level of current all the time, yes, they will sag and complain, and eventually,
wear
prematurely. This is why I plan on limiting the max current of my planned Evercell
pack,
to 400 amps. They will only see this type of current occasionally, as the motor
controller
will multiply current at low motor rpms, and at higher speeds, with 216V on tap, the
cruise currents will be in the sub 50 amp range.
>Isn't its internal resistance much higher? Which,
>when in a 13-18 battery string in compounded.
Yes, it is higher. As to the 13 battery string thing....read the above quote from me
about
Blue Meanie.
>Can you even draw the 200+ amps from a NiZN?
Yes, easily.
>This sounds too good to be true.
Why do you think I'm using them on my current project?
See Ya....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John,
From what you've said I think I'm sold on the Evercels, especially
since I'll be moving to Maine in about a year where they have cold in
abundance. I wanted to use a car that I now own, a 99 Neon, but had given up
on it because I couldn't fit enough 6 volt batteries in it to get the range
I want; it would have greatly exceeded the GVWR. I had planned on buying a
truck and converting it but now I can use my Neon and keep a back seat for
the kids. This will save me a lot of money even when including the cost of
the more expensive Evercels. I had planned on a typical 144v, nine inch adc,
Curtis controller ev but I think I might copy what you're doing. An
acceleration of 9-10 seconds to sixty is very acceptable to me (maybe better
than what the ICE Neon will do). The only resource I have right now (I'm
overseas on the Theodore Roosevelt, if your watching CNN) so the only
resource I have right now on Evercels is a Cabela's fishing supply catalog.
They list the Evercel Evertroll (is it different than the one the list talks
about?) at 49 lbs for shipping purposes. Eight hundred pounds of these would
give me 192 volts. Good enough for an exciting kinda EV?
What kind of charger are you going to use? The Zivian? If I'm lucky
the Raptor will be back in production when I'm ready to start. And of course
I'll have a very Waylandesque stereo to blast some Metallica when the kids
aren't in the car ;-)I'm really excited about this conversion. I can't wait
to get back stateside to start gathering stuff together. But I'll still have
to buy the components one at a time. Just don't have the cash to get it all
at once. When I get back home in a few months I'll also do some research on
the motor and controller you mentioned you'll be using.
One other point of concern. This is going to be my first EV.
Everyone talks about how "you ruin your first battery pack." With a
top-notch charger and BMS can I avoid this? What would you recommend?
Thanks for all the info you've provided and congrats again on the
new job.
John Shelton
-----Original Message-----
From: John Wayland [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 7:37 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Evercells versus Yellow tops
Hello to All,
"Shelton, John D. AW2" wrote:
> All,
> The 691wh listed for the NiZn is more than double that of the
yellow
> top's rating of 312wh. So does this mean that if I have a string of twelve
> MB80s, I'll have at least as much total energy as two strings of 12 yellow
> tops run in parralel?
The Evercells give about three times the range under cruise conditions, as
lead acid. 800
lbs. of NiZN give the range of 2400 lbs. of lead acid. In colder temps, when
lead acid
goes to about half its range, the NiZN give 6 times the range! Want proof?
Sheer's 40 lb.
Evercells give an easy 80 ahrs under EV current draws, even in cold
weather....a 45 lb.
Optima gives 25 ahrs under the same circumstances...that's 25 ahrs from 45
lbs., vs 80
ahrs from 40 lbs.!
>How many T-145s is this equivalent to?
Red Beastie was a 2600 lb. vehicle before conversion (5300 lbs. after), and
it took 2500
lbs. of Trojans to give 120 mile range. Sheer's Honda Accord weighed about
2600 lbs.
before conversion, but only has 800 lbs. of Evercells...he's gone 117 miles
on one charge!
For a mid voltage EV (144V-156V) with strong acceleration and terrific high
speed power,
the Evercells pale next to YT's for high current juice. My own Blue Meanie
accelerates
hard because it is very light (2340 lbs.) and yet has a mid level 156V
system that uses up
to 1200 amps for making big HP and torque. In this case, Optimas rein
supreme for
acceleration. As the voltage is raised for a given level of power however,
the current
requirements drop, so Evercells start to play catch up with lead acid in the
area of power
performance. Over the 200V threshold, you no longer need 1000+ amps for
strong
acceleration, and even 500 amps gives lots of power. If you're considering a
200+V car,
Evercell NiZN technology looks mighty good.
For my direct drive minitruck, I'm looking at a 216V system. The completed
conversion,
including the battery pack and rad stereo system, should weigh around 2700
lbs. The Zilla
1KHV motor controller will allow me to dial in fairly low battery pack
current limit, say
400 amps, to protect the Evercells from excessive current draws, but the
current
multiplication factor of the controller will still send 1000 amps through
the 4-motor loop
circuit, when the motors are at lower rpms, such as during take-off times,
right when you
need the torque the most. At 500 amps per motor, this will give about 300
ft. lbs. of
torque. Once the vehicle is up to higher speeds, the motor circuit amps will
lower as more
voltage gets sent to the motors, but at this point, the torque requirements
have fallen.
Even considering voltage sag at 300-400 amps, there will be about 75 HP
available.
At a nominal pack voltage of 216V, cruise current at 55-60 mph should be in
the 35-40 amp
range (my 2340 lb. EV at 156V uses 55-60 amps at this same speed). With an
honest 70-80
ahrs of usable EV level reserve from the Evercells, considering higher
occasional
currents, that's 100 mile range! Since it's a minitruck with all the
batteries under the
planned remote control hydraulic tilt bed (my forklift experience is finding
its way into
this EV), and since it will only need 35-40 amps at 60 mph, for road trips,
I plan on
rolling my 10kw generator into the bed for unlimited freeway cruising and
40-50 mpg gas
mileage...no more trailering the EV to Seattle car shows! The generator will
not
noticeably increase drag because there will be no heavy trailer and the drag
of two more
tires, and the height of my generator loaded in the bed and close to the
cab, is lower
than the truck's roof, so the aero drag will be insignificant.
I'll be able to arrive to the show, unload the generator, and enjoy pure EV
driving.
This EV should have OK 0-60 acceleration in the 9-10 second range, and a
reasonable top
speed of 80-ish...perfect for the rolling sound system I want it to be! If I
want more
performance, I'll park it and go get Blue Meanie.
See Ya.....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I wish I had the website handy but I just wanted to say the stickers look
great in real life. Nice, glossy professional looking stickers. I got 4 and
i'm going to get a magnet backing from the store for it before I apply it.
That that way I can move it around so it faces a good direction depending on
my parking spot at the train station, or hide it depending on the area.
Lee Hart writes:
Grannes, Dean wrote:
Folks,
Many thanks to Chip Gribben for helping clean up (and improve) my
original bumper sticker design. The latest version is again posted at:
http://www.geocities.com/ironstephanie
There may be one final revision to adjust the size and/or aspect ratio
depending upon what the printer says.
We took off the "100%" text after some discussion about our electrical
energy mix. I like this new design better.
I have a meeting with the printer today. The final revision will go in
by Monday. I should know by the end of today what kind of time frame
and costs we are looking at (note that I will be selling these at cost).
I've already gotten a few order requests. Feel free to submit more
(off-list).
I wanted to order a couple, but lost track of your email with the final
cost and where to mail my check. Could you refresh my memory?
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
Mark Hastings
'83 S-10 EV Blazer
www.geocities.com/evblazer
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Thomas,
Go back to the archives and look for Joe Smalley's "Evercell reaches cycle
404". After being cycled 404 times at 1C to 100% DOD, the test Evercell is
still putting out about 58 AHr (down from 83.2 AHr observed high.) This
Evercell was also in unknown condition when the testing began, so it may
have been damaged, and a good Evercell might perform even better. (This is
still far better than you'll get from a new Optima at 1C.)
http://www.manzanitamicro.com/evercel%20cycle%20309%20summary.gif
Tim
-------
From : "Thomas Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To : <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject : Re: Evercells versus Yellow tops
Date : Tue, 25 Mar 2003 00:42:54 -0800
This sounds too good to be true. You're telling us, John, that
Evercels suffer no loss of amphour capacity at the high currents
that an EV demands and no loss of capacity at lower temperature.
I hope you're right. Are these untested claims or has somebody
actually tested and proved that amphour capacity is not affected
by high current drain or reduced temperature?
_________________________________________________________________
Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I found this today while reading the news. I haven't seen Bruce post
it, so I hope I'm not stepping on any toes here, but this was just
too interesting/weird to pass up.
http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99993539
It's a news story about a new enzyme-catalysed ethanol fuel cell with
a better life and better performance than any previous design. They
are having trouble getting it down to "portable" size, but they seem
to be talking about cell phones and laptops. I can't help but wonder
about possible EV uses. The best bit of it, though, is the line where
they talk about having run the thing on vodka and gin. Gives a new
meaning to drunk driving, doesn't it?
--
Auf wiedersehen!
______________________________________________________
"..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."
"Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in sort
of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand naked
women screaming and throwing little pickles at you?"
"..No."
"Why am I the only person that has that dream?"
- Real Genius
--- End Message ---
