EV Digest 2820
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Water for the batts
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Lithium battery monitoring
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Water for the batts
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Theory of Contactor Controllers
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Theory of Contactor Controllers (pictures)
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Water for the batts
by "Mike Brandon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Water for the batts
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Cheap(er) controllers
by "The Levine Family" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Theory of Contactor Controllers (pictures)
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Battery pack sizing questions
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Batteries
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Batteries
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Anderson connector crimp
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
14) Ralph's Optimas vs. Evercels
by Fred Whitridge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Lithium battery monitoring
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Drive it to the Power of DC
by "Christopher Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: The crackpot index
by "Christian T. Kocmick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Lithium battery monitoring
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Drive it to the Power of DC
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Cedric Lynches motorcycle
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Batteries
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Efficiency numbers
by "Eric Penne" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Battery behavior
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Lithium battery monitoring
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Ok, here's a really basic question. I have had Neon's VW pickup for
about a month. I'm thinking I should check and maybe add water.
Can someone give me some do's and don'ts?
Don't use anything but distilled water.
Do always allow for the escape of hydrogen produced. (ventilate enclosed
areas)
Don't add water before charging, only after. (exception to this is if the
top of the plates are actually dry, add enough water to just cover them
before charging. Hopefully you will never let the level get that low)
Do clean the tops of the batteries to keep foreign matter out of them before
adding water.
Do look for one or more batteries using more water than the others, can
indicate a problem cell.
Like, how do I know if I need water? And how much do I add?
Depends on how many charge/discharge cycles you do over time, end of charge
cycle gassing, (charger type?) and many other things including depth of
discharge and ambient temperature.
Checking them visually for water level every 4-8 weeks seems to work for
many folks. You will get used to watering needs after about 6 months.
When you check them for water, check them all. Sometimes batts. on end of
string will use more than others.
Add enough to bring each cell level to within about 1/8" before touching the
fill tube, gives electrolyte room for expansion and gassing and reduces mess
around battery tops.
I know I'm missing something here...
More anyone?
Roy LeMeur Seattle WA
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
From: "Mike Brandon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Water for the batts
Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 00:52:30 -0500
Ok, here's a really basic question. I have had Neon's VW pickup for
about a month. I'm thinking I should check and maybe add water.
Can someone give me some do's and don'ts?
Like, how do I know if I need water? And how much do I add?
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--- Begin Message ---
The standard PFC-20 and 50 run fine from a DC source. The buck enhanced
models do not have current control since the input current is controlled by
measuring the input current through an AC current transformer. The buck
enhanced models will need the option taken out to get them to operate
correctly from a DC source. It involves disconnecting the two wire connector
out to the input current transformer board and installing one or two
resistors on the PCBs to read the internal DC current sensor.
The input circuit breaker is rated only for AC operation. A DC rated circuit
breaker was available to fit in the same location but the cost and delivery
time were prohibitive. I don't know if we used the DC rated breaker size
hole in the box or the sheet metal engineer used the smaller (AC only)
breaker to keep the case size smaller. Rich will have to answer that one.
If you were to substitute a fuse, you need to fuse both inputs and switch
both inputs because there is a DC path from both inputs to output negative.
Use a 25 amp semiconductor fuse rated for the input DC voltage. The
Littlefuse L50S 30A that is used in the output is an excellent candidate.
You will need to monitor both the input pack and the output pack to control
this operation. Control is more of an issue than the power transfer.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Hills" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 4:54 PM
Subject: Re: Lithium battery monitoring
> There's been a lot of talk about building load banks and possibly driving
> around the block forever at low speed to break in these new Li-Ion
> batteries.
>
> It occured to me that since the PFC-20/50 can run off of DC with very
little
> modification, why not just split the pack of Li-Ions in half and shuttle a
> charge back and forth. Charge one half off AC, then charge the second
half
> from the first half. You'll have to make sure you battery monitoring is
set
> up to shut down the PFC-20 when pack 1 is empty, but you'd need the same
> circuit to turn off the load bank. Then finish charging the second pack
off
> of AC. Turn the PFC-20 around and repeat...
>
> Rich, was a DC rated fuse on the input the only thing needed for the
> PFC-20/50 to run off DC? Any reason you couldn't just give a recommended
> part number for people to buy, or is there more to it?
>
> One issue would be the initial state of charge. If the batteries arrive
> mostly charged, you'd have to discharge at least half the pack in some
other
> way first. I suppose if you have another EV you could use the PFC-20 to
> drain the Li-Ions into that battery pack. Why boil away good electrons if
> you don't have to?
>
> -Michael
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.
> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ok, here's a really basic question. I have had Neon's VW pickup for
about a month. I'm thinking I should check and maybe add water.
Can someone give me some do's and don'ts?
More battery info here:
http://www.marine-electronics.net/techarticle/battery_faq/b_faq.htm
http://members.aol.com/brucedp/evbatt.html
Roy LeMeur Seattle WA
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
_________________________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think what happened was the current increase was significant enough that
the contacts overheated. The design was probably high maintenance before you
got it.
If the contacts only shorted out part of the resistor, they probably only
saw less than 8 volts across them when switching. When you moved up to 48
volts the voltage increased to 12 volts but the current may have doubled
since the acceleration probably doubled as well. Since the delay was the
same, the current did not fall during acceleration as much as it did at 36
volts and the contactors were working much harder.
The hardest thing you could do them would be to let off the throttle from
full throttle to zero throttle at a very low speed. You would be breaking
the largest current.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 7:52 PM
Subject: Re: Theory of Contactor Controllers
> It is a little confusing. I still don't understand how 12v selinoids can
> take 36v for forty years and then fry when I take them up to 48v.
Lawrence
> Rhodes......
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It is an Amperite just as you thought. It must keep the motor from getting
full voltage for 5 seconds. Lawrence Rhodes.......Fixing it is just putting
in the right contactors. If I buy 5 48v contactors that is 125 bucks.
Anybody selling a Curtis 275 amp 48v controller for cheap? OR are there 5
golfcart selinoids of the 48v variety out there??????
----------------------------------------------------
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 12:22 AM
Subject: Re: Theory of Contactor Controllers (pictures)
> Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> > The first three contactors connect to the resistor in the same
> > order as their controller brush. The positive contactor is always
> > on feeding them. The last contactor is interupted by a relay.
>
> It looks like the sort of EV controller that competent designers had
> already quit using when Tom Edison was alive. Just resistors being
> switched in series with the motor.
>
> I would suggest you forget fixing it, and replace it with something
> better. There are lots of small Curtis controllers around; that would be
> straightforward. Or, build a more "modern" contactor controller, like
> the ones the Citicars used, which switch the batteries in
> series/parallel combinations to get the speeds, and only have one
> resistor for starting.
>
> > What is that relay (looks like a vacuum tube) doing?
>
> Does it say "Amperite" on it, and some number like "36NO5"? I'll bet it
> is a time delay relay. It has a heating element whose voltage rating is
> the first digits (36v), a switch contact (NO for Normally Open, NC for
> Normally Closed), and a time delay from when you power the heater until
> the switch operates (5 for 5 seconds). It might be being used for
> anything from a delay to prevent you from going from a dead stop to full
> speed instantly, to a flasher for turn signals.
>
>
> --
> Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
> Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks. That answers some questions and brings up others. If I don't use
much of my capacity one day, should I wait to charge After the next day
or should I charge each night?
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Roy LeMeur
Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 1:33 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Water for the batts
>Ok, here's a really basic question. I have had Neon's VW pickup for
>about a month. I'm thinking I should check and maybe add water.
>
>Can someone give me some do's and don'ts?
More battery info here:
http://www.marine-electronics.net/techarticle/battery_faq/b_faq.htm
http://members.aol.com/brucedp/evbatt.html
Roy LeMeur Seattle WA
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
_________________________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Charge every night right after the car is used.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Brandon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 11:47 PM
Subject: RE: Water for the batts
> Thanks. That answers some questions and brings up others. If I don't use
> much of my capacity one day, should I wait to charge After the next day
> or should I charge each night?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Roy LeMeur
> Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 1:33 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Water for the batts
>
> >Ok, here's a really basic question. I have had Neon's VW pickup for
> >about a month. I'm thinking I should check and maybe add water.
> >
> >Can someone give me some do's and don'ts?
>
>
> More battery info here:
>
> http://www.marine-electronics.net/techarticle/battery_faq/b_faq.htm
>
> http://members.aol.com/brucedp/evbatt.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Roy LeMeur Seattle WA
>
> My Electric Vehicle Pages:
> http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
>
> Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
> http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8.
> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<<If I buy 5 48v contactors that is 125 bucks.
Anybody selling a Curtis 275 amp 48v controller for cheap? OR are there 5
golfcart selinoids of the 48v variety out there??????>>
On the EV Tradin' Post, about 2/3's of the way down, is a listing for
rebuilt Curtii - contact address was originally wrong but has be updated:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] I've been trying to get a SepEx from his company, but
they have to program it first, and we're working out the details. They were
cheaper for their rebuilt/remanufactured models than what Curtis had listed
for "bargain basement" controllers.
The 48V/275A 1204 in my REVI cost a bit over $200 from Golf Tech, but that
was a couple years ago, and their site gives a 403 warning now, so maybe
they don't want the EV exposure the internet has given them.
There is also the Bargain Basement of 4QD at
http://www.4qd.co.uk/price/bgrade.html but these work best with PM motors,
so it would be a waste to buy a 4-quad controller for a motor that will only
give you forward with it!
One of these days, I'll get my Autoette on eBay, but that one doesn't have
ANY contactors, just contacts you manually select!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think you can get rebuilt 275A Curtii for under $200.
I am building my own 48V controller, and it has done 200A. I will be
getting PCBs etched soon. If someone wanted to build their own, I could
send them a pcb and a bill of materials for cheap. I am not sure it's
cheaper to build than the cheapest rebuilt Curtis, but it should be more
robust and do higher continuous power than the 275A unit.
I haven't really been following this thread because the title was
contactor controllers, so I hope I am not out in left field here.
Seth
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
>
> It is an Amperite just as you thought. It must keep the motor from getting
> full voltage for 5 seconds. Lawrence Rhodes.......Fixing it is just putting
> in the right contactors. If I buy 5 48v contactors that is 125 bucks.
> Anybody selling a Curtis 275 amp 48v controller for cheap? OR are there 5
> golfcart selinoids of the 48v variety out there??????
>
> ----------------------------------------------------
> This mailbox protected from junk email by Matador
> from MailFrontier, Inc. http://info.mailfrontier.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 12:22 AM
> Subject: Re: Theory of Contactor Controllers (pictures)
>
> > Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> > > The first three contactors connect to the resistor in the same
> > > order as their controller brush. The positive contactor is always
> > > on feeding them. The last contactor is interupted by a relay.
> >
> > It looks like the sort of EV controller that competent designers had
> > already quit using when Tom Edison was alive. Just resistors being
> > switched in series with the motor.
> >
> > I would suggest you forget fixing it, and replace it with something
> > better. There are lots of small Curtis controllers around; that would be
> > straightforward. Or, build a more "modern" contactor controller, like
> > the ones the Citicars used, which switch the batteries in
> > series/parallel combinations to get the speeds, and only have one
> > resistor for starting.
> >
> > > What is that relay (looks like a vacuum tube) doing?
> >
> > Does it say "Amperite" on it, and some number like "36NO5"? I'll bet it
> > is a time delay relay. It has a heating element whose voltage rating is
> > the first digits (36v), a switch contact (NO for Normally Open, NC for
> > Normally Closed), and a time delay from when you power the heater until
> > the switch operates (5 for 5 seconds). It might be being used for
> > anything from a delay to prevent you from going from a dead stop to full
> > speed instantly, to a flasher for turn signals.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
> > 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
> > Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
> > leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
> >
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ralph-
what are you doing with the used(up) nicads? Some of us NEV/boat guys
might be interested in them...
Seth
Ralph Merwin wrote:
>
> Last weekend I was once again standing in the garage looking at my
> Geo Prizm with gaping holes in the trunk and engine compartment where
> batteries used to live, and a pile of now dead batteries stacked to
> one side and a pile of battery boxes to the other...
>
> Battery choices are swirling in my head. Do I load the car up with
> lead acid batteries, shooting for the magic 30% battery weight, or
> do I try the Evercel NiZn batteries?
>
> My goal is to have a pack sized so I don't use more than 50% of the
> pack capacity for my normal commute. My 26 mile commute (mostly
> freeway speeds) requires about 7-8kwh round trip. Charging at work
> is not an option, so I'm looking at a 14-16kwh pack.
>
> My car weighed 2800lbs when it had the SAFT NiCads (20, 28lb modules),
> so I'm using 2240lbs as an 'empty' weight that includes the weight of
> the battery boxes, controller, charger, etc.
>
> A 156v pack of 45ah Optima Yellow Tops (13 buddy pairs, about 14kwh)
> would weigh 1170lbs, making the car's total weight 3410lbs (about 34%
> battery weight). It would also be about 100lbs shy of GVW. I would
> be able to keep my DCP-600 though, and I might be able to reuse the
> battery boxes from a prior rebuild. I'd also have to install battery
> box insulation and heaters (which might be tricky with the design of
> the old boxes).
>
> Another option is a 192v pack of Optima group 31s (about 14kwh). 16 of
> these would weigh about 960lbs, for a total vehicle weight of 3200lbs
> (about 30% battery weight). I would have to replace the DCP-600 with
> another controller like Otmar's Z1K, and I'd probably have to make new
> battery boxes. I'd also have to install battery box insulation and
> heaters. I can mount the Optimas in any orientation.
>
> The Evercel option is most attractive weight-wise, but is also much more
> expensive. A 211v pack (16, 13.2v batteries, about 18kwh) would weigh
> 768lbs. I'm not sure what a proper weight ratio would be. I think I
> would need the higher pack voltage to stay under the Evercel's limit of
> about 250amps continuous. I would have to replace the controller and
> battery boxes. The Evercels must be mounted upright, which limits my
> placement options.
>
> I'm leaning towards the Optima group 31 option. It seems like a good
> compromise between weight and cost, even if I have to replace the
> controller. I have a PFC-20, which will handle all of the pack options
> I'm looking at.
>
> Before I go too much further with this rebuild I'd like to get feedback
> on my logic. Is it reasonable to use a target pack capacity of 14-16kwh
> and the 30% battery weight target as a basis for this rebuild? Do the
> Optima group 31s really have a 75ah capacity? Would I reasonably expect
> to get a 26 mile trip from this pack without discharging the pack much
> beyond the 50% point? Or would it be better to use 18 batteries (they
> may not fit into the car)?
>
> Ralph
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think you want the 180Ah modules for that, I hear they do 900+ amps
for bursts with no ill effect, although I don't know allowed repetition rate.
Seth
Jim Coate wrote:
>
> And NiCads are happy in the cold winters so range consistent throughout
> the year.
>
> If anyone has an in with SAFT to find out how often the 680 amps for 10
> seconds can be repeated, it would be most useful information.
>
> Philippe Borges wrote:
> > Why not a 120V 140A/h Saft ni-cad pack ?
> > Though, it would be 800 pound for complete (nickel plated connection,
> > central watering system+box)
> > 20 X 6V modules.
> > You will have largely the range you need, good life cycle and Saft
> > guarantied 270A constant/
> > 680A (10sec) current for fun driving.
> >
> > Philippe
> >
> > Et si le pot d'�chappement sortait au centre du volant ?
> > quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
> > http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
>
> _________
> Jim Coate
> 1992 Chevy S10
> 1970's Elec-Trak
> http://www.eeevee.com
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think the caps are as high as 6 watt-hours per kilogram which puts
them at ~20% of lead acid. 3-4 watt-hours is more typical. The caveat
about voltage variation is quite correct, though.
Lee Hart wrote:
>
> Mark Thomasson wrote:
> > With the scheme below, I wonder about the energy lost while passing
> > through two sets of batteries. How much is lost from charge to
> > discharge? If you only get say 80% of the energy back that you put
> > into one set of batteries, passing it through two sets means you
> > only get 64% back!
>
> 80% is about right for lead-acid batteries.
>
> > Using super capacitors for the performance pack would be much more
> > efficient (and expensive at today's prices).
>
> Supercapacitors don't even have 1% of the energy storage of batteries.
> Their voltage varies dramatically with state of charge. Thus, the DC/DC
> converter used to charge/discharge them must work over a very wide
> range. For the time being, supercapacitors are only useful when you only
> need the extra power for a few seconds.
>
> > What if you run each pack (performance and range) on separate PWM
> > controllers in parallel to the motor.
>
> It helps to recognize that the two battery packs make it a hybrid
> vehicle (a battery-battery hybrid :-) There are all the usual
> tradeoffs you see in other hybrid vehicles -- series vs. parallel
> hybrids, etc. Just as for other hybrids, theories abound, but nobody
> really knows what control strategy is best.
> --
> Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
> Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 12:52 PM 28/05/03 -0500, you wrote:
Other then the issue of slow creep of solder, I don't agree about crimping
being better. If your connection gets so hot that it melts solder, there
is something wrong. I would rather the connection break before the whole
cable starts glowing. I have this problem on my electric scooter and
credit the solder for saving the rest of the motor.
One of my workers was a government department employee a few years back.
They had a good low-ohms meter, Colin made 10 soldered joints, the other
tech made 10 crimped joins. They then tested them, Colins' lowest
resistance joint was only as good as the highest resistance crimped join.
However, for a good crimp join, the inside of the crimp and the outside of
the wire need to be 'mint' condition. If the inside of the crimp join is
corroded, you will most likely get a high-resistance joint. I favor bead
blasting the inside of any crimp terminals that I'm not happy are clean
enough, but not everyone has a bead blaster available.
Later
James Massey
Tasmania
Australia.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ralph:
I have a pile of MB80's sitting in my garage and will eventually have
two paralled strings of 10 batteries in my VW Cabrio. I recently had 20
Optima YT's in two paralled strings which got murdered and abused (by
someone) in the 1997 Tour de Sol in my pre Hart Balancer days. Am now
running one string of YT's at 120 volts. Alas I won't have the first 10
MB80's in the car until mid June: Am trying to install a liquid cooling
system beneath the batts, am waiting for my Brusa charger, and have to
completely recable from automotive posts to Evercels very diminutive
1/4" bolts. The car was set up to run with a trailer in the TdeS and
thus there are two contactors which could select either the trailer or
the in-car batts. This system worked and works fine. I intend to
rewire this so I can run off of either the MB80's or the YT's to get a
real side by side comparison. So I hope to have some hard data shortly.
In the mean time, the most exciting thing I have done with one is jump
my SAAB 9-5--- NiZn rescuing PbA.
Here are the links to some pics, posted previously:
http://www.home.ix.netcom.com/~fw/mb80.JPG
http://www.home.ix.netcom.com/~fw/topless.JPG
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 11:54 PM 5/28/2003 -0700, Lee Hart wrote:
156 volts at 5 amps is 780 watts. That's a terrifying amount of heat to
release inside a battery box. You'd need a substantial amount of
airflow, or water cooling to get rid of it safely.
Lee, I'm not about to do the conditioning cycles inside a cramped battery
box! This will be all laid out on the bench with LOTS of air
available. Each load has it's own fan as well.
And yes, I have been thinking about doing the on-the-fly monitoring to get
them all to their charge/discharge levels at the same time. Just requires
a little more software.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
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--- Begin Message ---
Thought: It looks to be about a 65 mile drive from Relay MD 21227 to the
Power of DC event.
Thought: The Prizm at highway speed (65) has a 40 mile range before the
batteries drop to 280 volts @70amps. (300v pack). I took it this far
yesterday; that's about my limit (40 amps on a 52 amp-hour pack)
Thought: I can charge the car 80% in about 2 hours using the MagneCharger
(18amps per hour)
Thought: Would it be possible to rent a moderately portable gas fired
generator that could put out 30 amps continuous at 240 volts for two hours,
then drag the MagneCharger+generator with me in an ICE "chase car" and
charge at the side of the road on 70? Or do a way-stop at Frederick MD (44
miles, *really* tight) then recharge in a parking lot with the generator
while getting breakfast?
Thoughts: While the highways around DC do have hills and dales, the run up
to Hagerstown will be some serious hills climbing into the base of the
Appalachian mountains. However there are down-hill runs and the Prizm does
have regen.
Are there strategies for maximizing battery capacity on long hills? My
current mode is to increase speed on down-hills and never try to increase
speed on uphills (draws too much current ie: >100amps). Instead pick a
current draw and try to stay there if possible. Let the car slowly lose
speed on the way up. How much extra should I budget power-wise to handle
long hills?
Does taking a pack down to 20%, then up to 80%, then down to 20%, then up to
80-90% sound like a bad idea? Do batteries slip out of equalization quickly
if they aren't always taken up to the equalization voltage (365 or 390
volts). New pack, AGM Hawkers.
A possible schedule could be as follows:
Leave Relay 6am, drive twds FDK. (44 miles)
Arrive FDK 7am, charge hard
Depart FDK 9am, go to Hagerstown (32 miles)
Possible hour charge on road between FDK and HGR due to hills
Arrive track 11am. Charge up using track's power (full Magnecharge for
2+ hours)
"race" (no I am not going to floor it) at 1pm-5pm. Peak the pack between
races.
Depart at 5pm, go to "town", charge in lot
Drive home slowly and for the most part, downhill. Stop at least once
for a recharge (2 hours).
The on-board 220 volt charger puts out a max of around 5-6 amps. The 110
charger puts out 2.5-3 amps. The MagneCharger puts out 18.7 amps. Thus
charging on 220 opportunity will not work in a timely manner (6 hours to do
what the MC does in 2)
Thoughts?
Chris
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Hmm, I didn't see anything about Toyota ownership.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 1:57 AM
Subject: The crackpot index
> >From time to time we get folks posting "Amazing Discoveries" or "New
> Technologies" on the list that are a bit beyond reality.
>
> I just came across the Crackpot Index by mathematician John Baez. Since
> it seems particularly appropriate to some of the things that get posted
> on the list, I thought I'd pass it on.
>
> THE CRACKPOT INDEX
> A simple method for rating potentially revolutionary contributions to
> physics.
> 1. A -5 point starting credit.
> 2. 1 point for every statement that is widely agreed on to be false.
> 3. 2 points for every statement that is clearly vacuous.
> 4. 3 points for every statement that is logically inconsistent.
> 5. 5 points for each such statement that is adhered to despite careful
> correction.
> 6. 5 points for using a thought experiment that contradicts the results
> of a widely accepted real experiment.
> 7. 5 points for each word in all capital letters (except for those with
> defective keyboards).
> 8. 5 points for each mention of "Einstein", "Hawkins" or "Feynmann".
> 9. 10 points for each claim that quantum mechanics is fundamentally
> misguided (without good evidence).
> 10. 10 points for pointing out that you have gone to school, as if this
> were evidence of sanity.
> 11. 10 points for beginning the description of your theory by saying how
> long you have been working on it.
> 12. 10 points for mailing your theory to someone you don't know
> personally and asking them not to tell anyone else about it, for fear
> that your ideas will be stolen.
> 13. 10 points for offering prize money to anyone who proves and/or finds
> any flaws in your theory.
> 14. 10 points for each statement along the lines of "I'm not good at
> math, but my theory is conceptually right, so all I need is for someone
> to express it in terms of equations".
> 15. 10 points for arguing that a current well-established theory is
> "only a theory", as if this were somehow a point against it.
>
> (I would add: 10 points for arguing that a theory is old so we must be
> able to improve upon it.)
>
> 16. 10 points for arguing that while a current well-established theory
> predicts phenomena correctly, it doesn't explain "why" they occur, or
> fails to provide a "mechanism".
> 17. 10 points for each favorable comparison of yourself to Einstein, or
> claim that special or general relativity are fundamentally misguided
> (without good evidence).
> 18. 10 points for claiming that your work is on the cutting edge of a
> "paradigm shift".
> 19. 20 points for suggesting that you deserve a Nobel prize.
> 20. 20 points for each favorable comparison of yourself to Newton or
> claim that classical mechanics is fundamentally misguided (without good
> evidence).
> 21. 20 points for every use of science fiction works or myths as if they
> were fact.
> 22. 20 points for defending yourself by bringing up (real or imagined)
> ridicule accorded to your past theories.
> 23. 20 points for each use of the phrase "hidebound reactionary".
> 24. 20 points for each use of the phrase "self-appointed defender of the
> orthodoxy".
> 25. 30 points for suggesting that a famous figure secretly disbelieved
> in a theory which he or she publicly supported. (E.g., that Feynman was
> a closet opponent of special relativity, as deduced by reading between
> the lines in his freshman physics textbooks.)
> 26. 30 points for suggesting that Einstein, in his later years, was
> groping his way toward the ideas you now advocate.
> 27. 30 points for claiming that your theories were developed by an
> extraterrestrial civilization (without good evidence).
> 28. 40 points for comparing those who argue against your ideas to Nazis,
> stormtroopers, or brownshirts.
> 29. 40 points for claiming that the "scientific establishment" is
> engaged in a "conspiracy" to prevent your work from gaining its
> well-deserved fame, or suchlike.
> 30. 40 points for comparing yourself to Galileo, suggesting that a
> modern-day Inquisition is hard at work on your case, and so on.
> 31. 40 points for claiming that when your theory is finally appreciated,
> present-day science will be seen for the sham it truly is. (30 more
> points for fantasizing about show trials in which scientists who mocked
> your theories will be forced to recant.)
> 32. 50 points for claiming you have a revolutionary theory but giving no
> concrete testable predictions.
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Michael Hills wrote:
>
> There's been a lot of talk about building load banks and possibly driving
> around the block forever at low speed to break in these new Li-Ion
> batteries.
>
> It occured to me that since the PFC-20/50 can run off of DC with very little
> modification, why not just split the pack of Li-Ions in half and shuttle a
> charge back and forth. Charge one half off AC, then charge the second half
> from the first half. You'll have to make sure you battery monitoring is set
> up to shut down the PFC-20 when pack 1 is empty, but you'd need the same
> circuit to turn off the load bank. Then finish charging the second pack off
> of AC. Turn the PFC-20 around and repeat...
>
> Rich, was a DC rated fuse on the input the only thing needed for the
> PFC-20/50 to run off DC? Any reason you couldn't just give a recommended
> part number for people to buy, or is there more to it?
>
> One issue would be the initial state of charge. If the batteries arrive
> mostly charged, you'd have to discharge at least half the pack in some other
> way first. I suppose if you have another EV you could use the PFC-20 to
> drain the Li-Ions into that battery pack. Why boil away good electrons if
> you don't have to?
>
> -Michael
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.
> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail
Good idea.
But you will loose only the waste from the charger and the Cells them
selves.
You would save about %80 of the energy that you would if you just blew
it off and them sucked from th grid.
DC fuse, and enough to light up the 15 volt switcher for logic and
fans. If a solid 15.0 volts dropped righ into the 15 volt rail DC
connector is used then Well it works from about 6 volt up.
They all get tested with a Chicken power supply before I let Big AC
touch the on board supply. I wanna KNOW the silicon is working before I
dump 240 grid on $750 worth of hardware.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
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If you are going to bring another ICE along why not just tow it where towing
is easy and drive it where it is not? If the trip includes 30 miles of nice
flat straight freeway you could tow it for this stretch and drive it the
rest of the way.
damon
From: "Christopher Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Drive it to the Power of DC
Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 09:41:58 -0400
Thought: It looks to be about a 65 mile drive from Relay MD 21227 to the
Power of DC event.
Thought: The Prizm at highway speed (65) has a 40 mile range before the
batteries drop to 280 volts @70amps. (300v pack). I took it this far
yesterday; that's about my limit (40 amps on a 52 amp-hour pack)
Thought: I can charge the car 80% in about 2 hours using the MagneCharger
(18amps per hour)
Thought: Would it be possible to rent a moderately portable gas fired
generator that could put out 30 amps continuous at 240 volts for two hours,
then drag the MagneCharger+generator with me in an ICE "chase car" and
charge at the side of the road on 70? Or do a way-stop at Frederick MD (44
miles, *really* tight) then recharge in a parking lot with the generator
while getting breakfast?
Thoughts: While the highways around DC do have hills and dales, the run up
to Hagerstown will be some serious hills climbing into the base of the
Appalachian mountains. However there are down-hill runs and the Prizm does
have regen.
Are there strategies for maximizing battery capacity on long hills? My
current mode is to increase speed on down-hills and never try to increase
speed on uphills (draws too much current ie: >100amps). Instead pick a
current draw and try to stay there if possible. Let the car slowly lose
speed on the way up. How much extra should I budget power-wise to handle
long hills?
Does taking a pack down to 20%, then up to 80%, then down to 20%, then up
to
80-90% sound like a bad idea? Do batteries slip out of equalization quickly
if they aren't always taken up to the equalization voltage (365 or 390
volts). New pack, AGM Hawkers.
A possible schedule could be as follows:
Leave Relay 6am, drive twds FDK. (44 miles)
Arrive FDK 7am, charge hard
Depart FDK 9am, go to Hagerstown (32 miles)
Possible hour charge on road between FDK and HGR due to hills
Arrive track 11am. Charge up using track's power (full Magnecharge for
2+ hours)
"race" (no I am not going to floor it) at 1pm-5pm. Peak the pack
between
races.
Depart at 5pm, go to "town", charge in lot
Drive home slowly and for the most part, downhill. Stop at least once
for a recharge (2 hours).
The on-board 220 volt charger puts out a max of around 5-6 amps. The 110
charger puts out 2.5-3 amps. The MagneCharger puts out 18.7 amps. Thus
charging on 220 opportunity will not work in a timely manner (6 hours to do
what the MC does in 2)
Thoughts?
Chris
_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
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The Lynch Motorcycle is one of the vehicles built by Cedric to take part in
Electrathon events. In original specification, running on a single 165 Ah 12
volt battery and with a top speed of 30 mph, the motorcycle was ridden from
London to Birmingham (a distance of 125 miles) on a single charge. In
current specification using four Optima YellowTop batteries the top speed is
approximately 65 mph and the range a calculated 80 miles at a constant
40mph. The Lectra with the same batteries is lucky to go 30 miles. It's
top speed is 45mph. Suprising what a good fairing will do. This vehicle
will out do a Sparrow in every way except safety. I can't imagine it being
much more than 3k built yourself. Lawrence Rhodes......
http://www.sciroccoev.co.uk Click on the Lynch Motorcycle.
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Seth wrote:
> I think the caps are as high as 6 watt-hours per kilogram which puts
> them at ~20% of lead acid.
Where are the specs for a supercapacitor this good? I haven't seen
anything anywhere close. Are they using specmanship to get it? For
example, comparing watt-hours at the 1-minute rate. You can fully
discharge a supercapacitor in 1 minute, but not a battery.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
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I've been doing some napkin calculations that I will eventually post to
the list and put up on a website.
According to my calculations which are very basic and estimate a lot:
Gasoline car - 25 MPG city milage
Gasoline $1.50/gallon
Electricity $0.08/kWh
Rough guesstimate for LiIon pack of 6800 Cycles to 25% DOD.
There's more info and calculations but I basically came out with a 230
Wh/mile figure for a BEV to have the same cost per mile as the above
mentioned 25MPG city vehicle.
Is 230 Wh/mile in the city a reasonable figure?
Related:
At 350 Wh/mile the same vehicle needed gasoline to jump to $2.71/gallon.
Is 350 Wh/mile resonable for city driving?
Eric
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When a battery comes up to target voltage and then drops in voltage below
all the other charging batteries what does this indicate? Battery feels
cool. Resting voltage is about .1 volt lower than other batteries. This
is a sealed battery. Lawrence Rhodes......
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--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
>> 156 volts at 5 amps is 780 watts. That's a terrifying amount of
>> heat to release inside a battery box. You'd need a substantial
>> amount of airflow, or water cooling to get rid of it safely.
John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> Lee, I'm not about to do the conditioning cycles inside a cramped
> battery box! This will be all laid out on the bench with LOTS of
> air available. Each load has its own fan as well.
Whew! That's good. I was assuming these load board were going inside
your Sparrow somewhere. I couldn't imagine dumping that much heat
anywhere inside a Sparrow. Fans just move the heat around; you'd still
have to get it outside and away from the car somehow.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
