EV Digest 2827
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Link-10/EMeter pre-scaler
by Stan Witherspoon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Back on topic - why I like electric
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Wind generator now fitted to solarvan!
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: OT. Important!!!!! OIL supplies, was Re: EV comments
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: US Battery Life
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: EV digest 2825
by Rick Woodbury <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Efficiency numbers
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Todd DC/DC/ converter question
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) No Limo for this Wedding, the Tango Takes Two
by Rick Woodbury <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: OT. Important!!!!! OIL supplies, was Re: EV comments
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: US Battery Life
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
12) Re: Efficiency numbers
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Link-10/EMeter pre-scaler
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) BMS
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) toyota echo conversion
by "Peri Hartman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Supercaps
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Link-10/EMeter pre-scaler
by Stan Witherspoon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: toyota echo conversion
by "KARLA JACKSONLEVINE" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: toyota echo conversion
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: toyota echo conversion
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Battery pack sizing questions
by "Ralph Merwin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: toyota echo conversion
by "Peri Hartman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: toyota echo conversion
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
24) Re: Wind generator now fitted to solarvan!
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Battery pack sizing questions
by "Gary Graunke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Efficiency numbers
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Link-10/EMeter pre-scaler
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) battery watering
by "Sell, Ken" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) cooling batteries
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
30) Re: battery watering
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
31) Re: toyota echo conversion
by "Christopher Meier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
How does the mosfet act as a zener?
Stan
On Saturday, May 31, 2003, at 02:53 PM, Lee Hart wrote:
Alex Karahalios wrote:
The pre-scaler output of my EMeter is reading about 290V...
Does anyone actually know how the pre-scaler is constructed?
Yes. I've dissected a 100v prescaler, and at least can tell you what
was
in that one. View with fixed-width font:
_ _
+Battery____| | |_____/\/\_______/\/\______/\/\________E-meter pin 5
| L1 | R1 | R2 | R3 | (+Vsense)
| open | 105k | 11.5k | 270 |
|__/\/\_| 1% | 1% | 5% |
R4 _|_ _|_ \_|_ Q1
0 ohms C1 ___ C2 ___ /_\\ Siliconix
_ _ 1000pF | 0.1uF | | VP0610L
_| | |_ 1KV | 50v | |
| L2 | ceramic | ceramic | |
| open | | | |
-Battery__|__/\/\_|__________|__________|________|____E-meter pin 1
R5 (-Vsense)
0 ohms
The only functional parts are R1 and R2, which total up to 118k for a
100v prescaler, or 1057k for a 500v prescaler. Q1 is actually a MOSFET,
but is being used as a low-leakage zener diode to limit the max output
voltage to about 50v.
If your prescaler output is reading ~290v, most likely Q1 is blown.
This
can happen if you connect the prescaler output to battery pack postive
by mistake.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sure is nice when you get the " your just transferring the pollution to the
power plant ,,," to be able to say ,no I have solar panels ect.
Steve Clunn
6'1"
, Sax ,piano
10 Solar panels
I also drank milk as a child ,
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2003 1:28 AM
Subject: Re: Back on topic - why I like electric
> We are going to install a 1kw solar system with extra racks to expand this
> month. We are counting on this helping break our dependance. Just one
> small step. Others to follow......With the Time of Use Meter we will get
> credit for putting watts in at a higher rate than we are taking it out.
Our
> EV's will be truly free and solar........Lawrence Rhodes....
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That a nice Conversion , How about entering it in the wind mill hood
ornament contest www.grassrootsev.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "ev" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2003 4:00 AM
Subject: Wind generator now fitted to solarvan!
> Dear EVDL list members.
>
> I have now fitted my 400w wind generator to my electric vehicle. For full
> details take a look at the web photos at www.solarvan.co.uk
>
> Regards
>
> Peter
> Windy North Yorkshire
> UK
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> > > Please don't answer to the list,
> > > jerry dycus
> > --
> > My Favorite Quotes:
> > "God Bless America." - President George W. Bush
> > "Let's roll." - Todd Beamer
> > "From my cold dead hands!" - Charleton Heston, NRA
> > President
> > "Mr. Gorbechev, tear down this wall!" - President
> > Ronald Reagan
> > "Words mean things." - Rush Limbaugh
>
> These are not my quotes, they are Matt's.
> Those who use patriotism for political gain
> without any regard for it's impacts are the worse form
> of demagoguery and anything but patriotic.
> Let's stick to facts,
> jerry dycus
>
Right on. Lawrence Rhodes........
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM).
> http://calendar.yahoo.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
According to
http://www.usbattery.com/dealers1.htm#Connecticut
Rae Storage Battery Company
51 Deming Road, Berlin CT 06037
(860) 828-6007 , Fax (860) 828-4540
is your local dealer and can give you the prices you
need. Be sure to tell them the quantity you plan to
buy (large quantity purchases should cost less).
More+
http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=%22RAE+Storage+Battery%22
Looking at battery manufacturers in your area
http://www.gy.com/biz/335911/860.htm
You might want to see what they offer in a US-250
comparable battery.
Verify if they charge for delivery (they don't here)
and if they will allow you a 2 week delay before
picking up the dead cores. If you do not have
dead batteries to return, you will have a per
battery charge.
I can usually find enough abandoned dead starter
batteries in the back of parking lots and shopping
malls. Ask, but they usually do not care what
battery they take back. All lead-acid batteries
are the same: lead+electrolyte+plastic.
...
Battery specs can be found on
http://www.usbattery.com/specs1.htm
Looks like the US-250 models are a 6V battery, but
they are not listed on the EV battery page. They are
listed on the Renewable Energy/PV page
http://www.usbattery.com/photovlt.htm
and the sweeper/scruber page
http://www.usbattery.com/6vltswpr.htm
Looking at the Trojan page, a comparable Trojan battery
is the J250P
http://www.trojanbattery.com/GeneralDC.asp?Product=186
Using their battery picker page
http://www.trojanbattery.com/combo.asp
I see their J250P not on the golf cart page, but on
their renewable energy and deep cycle pages.
This makes me think the US-250 is not a traction
battery, but a deep cycle battery.
If this is true, then like the cheap nEVs that do not
use traction batteries, but deep cycle batteries, you
should not bring the US-250 down beyond half capacity.
Else you will shorten the battery life.
Traction batteries like:
US-1800 US-2000 US-2200 US-125 US-145
or T-105 T-125 T-605 T-145
are designed to be deeply discharged.
You should ask your US battery dealer (above) if
the US-250 models are deep-cycle. IF this is for an
EV, ask if the US-205 can handle the vibration an
EV can produce.
-Bruce
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Hi Bruce,
> My Menlo Park III is located in Glastonbury, CT.
> I use Menlo Park III as a signoff because one of our previous VPs
> of
> NEEAA once said my place reminded him of the real Menlo Park after
> he
> took a tour of all my solar systems, electric vehicles, and
> experiemental
> projects such as heat pumps and flywheels. There are two real
> Menlo
> Parks that I know of, so I use Menlo Park III :-).
> I still need the answer to the question of deep cycle (80 % DOD) on
> US
> Batteries: US250 and US250HC and ballpark prices for a dozen.
> Thanks.
> Menlo Park III,
> Bill Glickman
> 1051 Hillstown Road
> Glastonbury, CT 06033
-
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM).
http://calendar.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> Once we have ordered our development kit (We have an AC drive Sanden at
>> present) and are ready to place an order, I'd be happy to post to this list
>> and allow anyone else to buy the units we decide on for the Tango at our
>> cost. The order wouldn't even have to be a specific number because our price
>> is the same from 1 to 500 units.
> Any idea how far off into the future this might be?
Hopefully this summer. It depends on when and how much funding we receive.
Rick Woodbury Phone: (509) 624-0762
President, Commuter Cars Corporation Toll-free: (800) 468-0944
Doubling the capacity of freeways Fax: (509) 624-1466
Quadrupling the capacity of parking Cellular: (509) 979-1815
Zero to 60 in under 4 seconds
715 E. Sprague Ave., Suite 114 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Spokane, WA 99202 Web: http://www.commutercars.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> A general comparison that non-EVers might understand better is that
>> battery cost and the savings in ICE maintenance roughly cancel out.
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> Sorry but I don't buy that. Not with modern ICEs. My Escort is almost
> 10 years old and approaching 160,000 miles. Assuming a similar EV
> with 'cheap' 6V GC batteries I'd have gone through 5-8 sets by now
> ($5,000-$8,000).
Suppose your EV batteries are good for 10,000 miles. If you drive your
EV 9,999 miles, is your cost for batteries zero? No, because the
batteries are shot. The value of your EV is low because of the bad
batteries. You'd have to replace them to sell it. When you include the
replacement cost, then you have a more accurate picture of battery cost
per 10,000 miles.
Same with an ICE. Your engine with 160,000 miles on it is mostly worn
out. Its value is far less than it was when new. To restore your engine
to its original condition could cost thousands of dollars. Even if your
engine hasn't failed yet, your cost per mile is the cost of a new engine
minus what your old one is worth.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>
> Yeah! My Todd arrived today. A quick test on 110VAC indicates that it
> works too (always a good thing with Ebay purchases)
>
> > Taking this a step further....all the models of the first generation series, the
> > 'old
> > Todds', have the same extruded heat sink, but are varying lengths...it's like
> > having a
> > party sized sub sandwich that you can hack off any length sandwiches you desire.
> > The
> > shorty ones are either the PC20LV or PC30 and these are basically square
> > blocks...then
> > there's the PC40 and the longer PC40LV, then the s-t-r-e-t-c-h-e-d version, the 75
> > amp
> > PC75.
>
> >From Lee Hart's description, mine would appear to be the 75 Amp version.
> 14.75 inches long. Not bad for $25.
>
> > The very earliest models of these first generation series did not have the external
> > jumper buss that can allow the converter to switch output voltages, but after
> > those, all
> > the later ones did.
>
> Hmm, mine has large red and white terminals on it which I guess are the
> DC output. It also has a small terminal strip with two connectors that
> is unlabeled. Would this be the jumper buss you refer too? If so how
> do I use it? Short the two connections together to switch to voltages?
>
> Right now it has an unloaded output voltage of 13.7V and the jumper is
> not connected.
Shorting the two screws on the little terminal block raises the output
voltage about 1 volt. There is a pot inside that sets the basic output
voltage. Typically, you would get 13.5v with the terminals open, and
14.4v with them shorted.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> With the arrival of prom & wedding season, I've been impressed with all
> the stretch SUV limos appearing.
Funny you should mention that. My daughter Cindy is getting married on the
12th of July. I'm driving her to the Altar in (you guessed it) the Tango.
She's already made a vale that hangs off to the back hatch with the words
"Just Married". That should be a little classier than the limo, shoe polish,
and a bunch of noisy tin cans. Her husband will then drive it along the
river behind the opera house to the hotel nearby.
Rick Woodbury Phone: (509) 624-0762
President, Commuter Cars Corporation Toll-free: (800) 468-0944
Doubling the capacity of freeways Fax: (509) 624-1466
Quadrupling the capacity of parking Cellular: (509) 979-1815
Zero to 60 in under 4 seconds
715 E. Sprague Ave., Suite 114 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Spokane, WA 99202 Web: http://www.commutercars.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My sentiments exactly Sharkey. . . About thumbing your nose at George Bush
and Dick Cheney for that matter.
What I really like is your concept about going "zero percent evil"
Bryan Murtha, a member of EVA/DC has gone this way.
He has a solar powered home in Owings, Maryland which helps charge his
Electric Ford Ranger EV. He also owns a Biodiesel VW Rabbit which he fuels
with a biodiesel storage tank with pump and two 55 gallon drums of extra
biodiesel in his carport. He mows his lawn with a GE Elec-trak.
The BILLIONS this country spends defending our dependence on foreign oil
could best be used in getting other Americans such as Bryan and yourself
towards a goal of self-sustainability. By doing this we keep our hard earned
American cash here rather then giving it to some fat Sheik.
Chip Gribben
On 5/31/03 4:25 PM, "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> My goal for 2003 is to purchase no, none, zero gallons of evil gasoline. So
> far, with the help of my EV and Biodiesel-powered VW Rabbit, I'm happy to
> report that I'm 100% on track as of this date.
>
> My motivations? All of the environmental, social, and recreational aspects
> of electric vehicles that we all find so dear -AND- as a political statment
> to thumb my nose at George Bush, his administration, and all of the oil
> money that helped him steal the election.
>
> How's that for motivation?
>
> Guess Matt's conservative friends will have to drive their SUV's in circles
> to neturalize my actions.....
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Bruce,
Thanks for the info, but nobody seems to know anything about the number
of deep cycles (down to 80 % DOD) for US250 and US250HC.
Menlo Park III,
Bill
On Sat, 31 May 2003 15:38:00 -0700 (PDT) Bruce EVangel Parmenter
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> According to
> http://www.usbattery.com/dealers1.htm#Connecticut
>
> Rae Storage Battery Company
> 51 Deming Road, Berlin CT 06037
> (860) 828-6007 , Fax (860) 828-4540
>
> is your local dealer and can give you the prices you
> need. Be sure to tell them the quantity you plan to
> buy (large quantity purchases should cost less).
>
> More+
> http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=%22RAE+Storage+Battery%22
>
> Looking at battery manufacturers in your area
> http://www.gy.com/biz/335911/860.htm
> You might want to see what they offer in a US-250
> comparable battery.
>
> Verify if they charge for delivery (they don't here)
> and if they will allow you a 2 week delay before
> picking up the dead cores. If you do not have
> dead batteries to return, you will have a per
> battery charge.
>
> I can usually find enough abandoned dead starter
> batteries in the back of parking lots and shopping
> malls. Ask, but they usually do not care what
> battery they take back. All lead-acid batteries
> are the same: lead+electrolyte+plastic.
>
> ...
> Battery specs can be found on
> http://www.usbattery.com/specs1.htm
>
> Looks like the US-250 models are a 6V battery, but
> they are not listed on the EV battery page. They are
> listed on the Renewable Energy/PV page
> http://www.usbattery.com/photovlt.htm
> and the sweeper/scruber page
> http://www.usbattery.com/6vltswpr.htm
>
> Looking at the Trojan page, a comparable Trojan battery
> is the J250P
> http://www.trojanbattery.com/GeneralDC.asp?Product=186
>
> Using their battery picker page
> http://www.trojanbattery.com/combo.asp
>
> I see their J250P not on the golf cart page, but on
> their renewable energy and deep cycle pages.
>
> This makes me think the US-250 is not a traction
> battery, but a deep cycle battery.
>
> If this is true, then like the cheap nEVs that do not
> use traction batteries, but deep cycle batteries, you
> should not bring the US-250 down beyond half capacity.
> Else you will shorten the battery life.
>
> Traction batteries like:
> US-1800 US-2000 US-2200 US-125 US-145
> or T-105 T-125 T-605 T-145
> are designed to be deeply discharged.
>
> You should ask your US battery dealer (above) if
> the US-250 models are deep-cycle. IF this is for an
> EV, ask if the US-205 can handle the vibration an
> EV can produce.
>
> -Bruce
>
>
> --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > Hi Bruce,
> > My Menlo Park III is located in Glastonbury, CT.
> > I use Menlo Park III as a signoff because one of our previous VPs
> > of
> > NEEAA once said my place reminded him of the real Menlo Park after
> > he
> > took a tour of all my solar systems, electric vehicles, and
> > experiemental
> > projects such as heat pumps and flywheels. There are two real
> > Menlo
> > Parks that I know of, so I use Menlo Park III :-).
> > I still need the answer to the question of deep cycle (80 % DOD)
> on
> > US
> > Batteries: US250 and US250HC and ballpark prices for a dozen.
> > Thanks.
> > Menlo Park III,
> > Bill Glickman
> > 1051 Hillstown Road
> > Glastonbury, CT 06033
> -
>
>
>
>
>
> =====
> ' ____
> ~/__|o\__
> '@----- @'---(=
> . http://geocities.com/brucedp/
> . EV List Editor & RE newswires
> . (originator of the above ASCII art)
> =====
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM).
> http://calendar.yahoo.com
>
>
________________________________________________________________
The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Same with an ICE. Your engine with 160,000 miles on it is mostly worn
> out. Its value is far less than it was when new. To restore your engine
> to its original condition could cost thousands of dollars. Even if your
> engine hasn't failed yet, your cost per mile is the cost of a new engine
> minus what your old one is worth.
> --
Sure, but a escort new engine doesn't cost thousands of dollars. Cost
is less than two cheap battery packs and then it's good for another
200,000 miles (roughly 10 battery packs worth)
I don't know why we keep having this argument. Until gas gets a whole
lot more expensive EVs on average are more expensive than ICEs on
average.
If your goal is saving money, then EVs aren't the answer (yet).
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Stan Witherspoon wrote:
>
> How does the mosfet act as a zener?
Any transistor will begin to conduct when you reach its breakdown
voltage. If nothing limits the current, it will be destroyed. But with
the large series resistors, in this circuit the transistor isn't hurt.
I think they used a transistor instead of a 50v zener diode so that its
leakage current below the voltage breakdown was negligible.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
some one has asked me where they could by a BMS , put together and working
for 13 to 20 batteries that would run of an extra 12 v batterie/ solar
panel
any web site's ? It dosen't sound like money will be a problem for them .
Steve Clunn
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi
I'm considering doing a conversion using a Toyota Echo. Given it's
relatively light weight, low drag coefficient, and ample cabin size, it
seems like a good choice. However, I don't know what problems may lurk,
such as enough space for batteries and space for mounting the motor. Does
anyone have experience with this vehicle or have any advice, positive or
negative?
I'm considering one of the AC motors and controllers from Siemens with
Evercel NiZn batteries.
Thanks,
Peri Hartman
Seattle
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 11:49 PM 5/29/03, you wrote:
FWIW Optima YTs are not the best AGM battery for drag racing, far from it
in fact.
For much less than the price of super caps you could buy Bolder TMF
cells (they still make those don't they?)
I wish they did, but Bolder went bankrupt. I have heard rumors
that they are going to make TMF batteries overseas, but I have not actually
seen any yet.
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The problem is what voltage will the mosfet breakdown at? The
datasheets only spec a minimum breakdown voltage. You could get a
breakdown voltage up to just under the next binning, which may not do
your e-meter any good.
stan
On Saturday, May 31, 2003, at 09:43 PM, Lee Hart wrote:
Stan Witherspoon wrote:
How does the mosfet act as a zener?
Any transistor will begin to conduct when you reach its breakdown
voltage. If nothing limits the current, it will be destroyed. But with
the large series resistors, in this circuit the transistor isn't hurt.
I think they used a transistor instead of a 50v zener diode so that its
leakage current below the voltage breakdown was negligible.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<<I'm considering doing a conversion using a Toyota
Echo.>>
That sounds like a great candidate! Considering how
small some conversions are, you should have plenty of
room (it's tall and narrow, so there's still places to
sow batteries) How far do you want to go and how much
do you want to spend? AC runs a bit more than DC, but
can come as a more complete "package" - I know
metricmind.com has Siemens AC systems, but I wonder
about the ones at atzwholesale.com: I just see motors,
not the driver, so that might not work.
________________________________________________
PeoplePC: It's for people. And it's just smart.
http://www.peoplepc.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Do you have an echo ? dose it have a standard tranny ? They look like good
car's for conversions to me
Steve Clunn
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peri Hartman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2003 10:39 PM
Subject: toyota echo conversion
> Hi
>
> I'm considering doing a conversion using a Toyota Echo. Given it's
> relatively light weight, low drag coefficient, and ample cabin size, it
> seems like a good choice. However, I don't know what problems may lurk,
> such as enough space for batteries and space for mounting the motor. Does
> anyone have experience with this vehicle or have any advice, positive or
> negative?
>
> I'm considering one of the AC motors and controllers from Siemens with
> Evercel NiZn batteries.
>
> Thanks,
> Peri Hartman
> Seattle
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It strikes me as an extremely narrow body. Remember,
those Evercels have quite a sag, so you'll need to fit
about 20-22 of them, both to overcome the sag, and
also to get high enough voltage for the AC controller
to perform decently.
--- 1sclunn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Do you have an echo ? dose it have a standard tranny
> ? They look like good
> car's for conversions to me
> Steve Clunn
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Peri Hartman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2003 10:39 PM
> Subject: toyota echo conversion
>
>
> > Hi
> >
> > I'm considering doing a conversion using a Toyota
> Echo. Given it's
> > relatively light weight, low drag coefficient, and
> ample cabin size, it
> > seems like a good choice. However, I don't know
> what problems may lurk,
> > such as enough space for batteries and space for
> mounting the motor. Does
> > anyone have experience with this vehicle or have
> any advice, positive or
> > negative?
> >
> > I'm considering one of the AC motors and
> controllers from Siemens with
> > Evercel NiZn batteries.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Peri Hartman
> > Seattle
> >
>
=====
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
(in progress)! ____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel? Are you
saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM).
http://calendar.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Philippe Borges writes:
>
> too late to data log Amps and �F ?
Yes, the car is disassembled, the NiCads are living with their new owner.
I do have rough numbers for currents (from E-Meter readings). The max
I ever saw was 400 amps for just a few seconds. Often the pack saw
about 300-350 amps when going uphill on the freeway (a regular event
with my commute). When cruising on more level ground the current would
be about 100-200 amps, depending on speed.
Ralph
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't own an Echo and have yet to go take measurements. I will do this in
the next few days, I hope. Anyway I am hoping to fit 22 batteries under the
hood and in the trunk. By the way, the Echo has a 5 speed manual tranny.
You mention, though, "quite a sag". I have read parts of Evercel's
technical document --
http://www.evercel.com/download/nickelzinctechnology.pdf -- and they do talk
about a sag dependent on temperature of about 15% (200mV), where the higher
temperature (40 deg C) produces the higher voltage. They also mention a sag
due to current load, but I can't find any numbers. (They do refer to a
number of graphs, but they are missing from the document...) In a later
paragraph, they claim that capacity is essentially independent of current
load, though. I'm not sure how both of these statements can be true. One
thought is, as current load increases, so does temperature, thereby somewhat
neutralizing the temperature and internal resistance effects.
Do you have any references to actual emperical data?
-- Peri
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Bath" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2003 6:11 AM
Subject: Re: toyota echo conversion
> It strikes me as an extremely narrow body. Remember,
> those Evercels have quite a sag, so you'll need to fit
> about 20-22 of them, both to overcome the sag, and
> also to get high enough voltage for the AC controller
> to perform decently.
>
> --- 1sclunn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Do you have an echo ? dose it have a standard tranny
> > ? They look like good
> > car's for conversions to me
> > Steve Clunn
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Peri Hartman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2003 10:39 PM
> > Subject: toyota echo conversion
> >
> >
> > > Hi
> > >
> > > I'm considering doing a conversion using a Toyota
> > Echo. Given it's
> > > relatively light weight, low drag coefficient, and
> > ample cabin size, it
> > > seems like a good choice. However, I don't know
> > what problems may lurk,
> > > such as enough space for batteries and space for
> > mounting the motor. Does
> > > anyone have experience with this vehicle or have
> > any advice, positive or
> > > negative?
> > >
> > > I'm considering one of the AC motors and
> > controllers from Siemens with
> > > Evercel NiZn batteries.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Peri Hartman
> > > Seattle
> > >
> >
>
>
> =====
> '92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
> (in progress)! ____
> __/__|__\ __
> =D-------/ - - \
> 'O'-----'O'-'
> Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering
wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM).
> http://calendar.yahoo.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sounds like a pure battery powered Prius.
On Sat, 31 May 2003 22:39:53 -0700 "Peri Hartman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
writes:
> Hi
>
> I'm considering doing a conversion using a Toyota Echo. Given it's
> relatively light weight, low drag coefficient, and ample cabin size,
> it
> seems like a good choice. However, I don't know what problems may
> lurk,
> such as enough space for batteries and space for mounting the motor.
> Does
> anyone have experience with this vehicle or have any advice,
> positive or
> negative?
>
> I'm considering one of the AC motors and controllers from Siemens
> with
> Evercel NiZn batteries.
>
> Thanks,
> Peri Hartman
> Seattle
>
>
________________________________________________________________
The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Your 2068lb, 60 VDC, 45 mph EV van is so much more
efficient when compared to my 5000 lb, 132 VDC,
70 mph EV blazer.
I think it is great that you can get part of your
charge off Renewable Energy (RE), reducing how much
grid (mains) Electricity you use.
I have seen RVs with Nevada license plates that have
a roof wingen folded down for transport. I assumed
that windgen was for when they boondocked (out in
the middle of nowhere, disconnected from the grid),
and ran stand alone off their 12 VDC house batteries.
When I was near Edwards AFB (North of LA) the wind
blew steady during the summer days I was there. But
in my case, I would need four times the windgen
power you have to even consider doing what you have
done.
I assume your neighbors are nicer than mine, as
having PVs and/or wind gens on my EV, I would be
'rip-off' bait (people would steal them off my EV).
I suppose if I had a house in that area, that
would be a more secure plan. But I do not see
that happening in my future.
I am concerned of the losses in converting a low
voltage windgen output to a higher pack voltage. I
assume you have to chop and boost the voltage.
How efficient is that circuit?
(300 max watts dropped to 210 watts after all the
losses?)
...
I suggest that you add your EValbum url to your links
page. That page had much of the detail I was looking
for about your EV, but could not find on your site.
I salute your EV efficiency and ability to recharge
from RE.
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM).
http://calendar.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ralph's experience suggests that we should consider the max power
ratings, which appear to be lower in most of the advanced battery
chemistries. I'm currently using a temporary pack of 14 nine-year-old Hawker
38AH AGM batteries for a nominal voltage of 168V.
The Siemens SIADIS program gives me the following statistics for my
current draws on my Insight:
total running time 5:44:30
0 amps 41:49 or 12.5%
0-100 amps 3:18:47 or 57.5%
100-200 amps 1:20:36 or 23.3%
200-300 amps 20:14 or 5.9%
300-400 amps 3:4 or 0.9%
I have set a current limit of 200A for the motor (which can take
280A), but it would seem that it boosts the voltage and thus draws more
battery current. (I'd really like to limit the battery current, so I'll have
to look at all the cryptic parameters to see if there is such a limit). I
have two 300A 500VDC fuses in the battery pack which of course allow short,
small excursions past their rating without blowing.
I plan to use a LiIon pack of 86 cells for 309V nominal. These seem to
have high internal resistance and the temperature increases with current due
to the exothermic reactions as well as the cell resistance. The manufacturer
has only published up to 1.5C constant current curves.
We're seeing a temperature 43C after 72AH at 27A (.3C) constant
discharge for one cell in a free standing battery of 4 cells. Lee has seen
50C after 87AH at 25A.
Perhaps an experiment is in order to watch the effects of larger
current draws, but for short times. We'll probably have to arrange some
cooling to avoid damaging the cell.
This also suggests recording the volts and amps during normal driving
so that we have an idea of the proper real-life mix of current draws. Victor
had a small amount of data on this for his first two cells.
Gary
====================================
From: "Ralph Merwin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Sun Jun 1, 2003 8:17 am
Subject: Re: Battery pack sizing questions
Philippe Borges writes:
>
> too late to data log Amps and �F ?
Yes, the car is disassembled, the NiCads are living with their new
owner.
I do have rough numbers for currents (from E-Meter readings). The max
I ever saw was 400 amps for just a few seconds. Often the pack saw
about 300-350 amps when going uphill on the freeway (a regular event
with my commute). When cruising on more level ground the current would
be about 100-200 amps, depending on speed.
Ralph
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>> Same with an ICE. Your engine with 160,000 miles on it is mostly
>> worn out. Its value is far less than it was when new. To restore
>> your engine to its original condition could cost thousands of
>> dollars. Even if your
> Sure, but a escort new engine doesn't cost thousands of dollars.
That's a surprise. What does a new Escort engine cost?
> I don't know why we keep having this argument. Until gas gets a
> whole lot more expensive EVs on average are more expensive than
> ICEs on average.
> If your goal is saving money, then EVs aren't the answer (yet).
All I can say is that they've worked for me!
Since new EVs are usually hand-built prototypes, they cost more than
ICEs. So, I've bought my EVs used to counteract the higher prices.
And, I use cheaper batteries with a low cost per mile, not the more
expensive higher-performance batteries.
And, I've learned enough to take care of it, so things don't break or
fail prematurely.
Under these conditions, EVs *are* cheaper than ICEs. I've kept records
on all my cars for many years, and I actually do spend less on the EVs.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Stan Witherspoon wrote:
> The problem is what voltage will the mosfet breakdown at? The
> datasheets only spec a minimum breakdown voltage. You could get
> a breakdown voltage up to just under the next binning, which may
> not do your e-meter any good.
You're right; you have no idea what the actual breakdown voltage will
be. The part's breakdown spec is just the minimum. The maximum is
probably the breakdown spec of the next most expensive part in that
product line (any chip that worked to 60v would be sold as a 60v part).
I think they "got away" with it because the E-meter's input is very
forgiving on overvoltage. You could apply 100 volts and not do any
damage.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
I have 16 US125s (96v total) system, and just did my
first watering after 6 weeks and 400 miles. The
batteries took about 1.5 gallons total. Does this
sound about right for the time/mileage?
I live in the Bay Area (California), so the weather
is moderate with mild temperatures and humidity.
The plates appeared to be completely covered when I
did the refill. I used a battery filling can, which
has a special nozzle to limit the water height to
the appropriate level.
Thanks,
.....Ken
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
With the various advanced batteries, it sounds like active cooling
systems may be needed. For the LiIons, the Evercells, and most of the
NiCads, no provisions are made into the battery cases. What would be an
effective and efficient way to provide the needed cooling? Is there
anyway to estimate what the cooling load would be?
_________
Jim Coate
1992 Chevy S10
1970's Elec-Trak
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That might be a little high, but...
As it is your first filling, hard to draw any conclusions. The batteries
may have been previously filled to a different level than where your
watering can shuts off. And if new or unused for a while, they may have
been using extra water while breaking in or getting back into balance.
Since the plates were still all covered, you weren't in danger. But I
wouldn't wait longer than 6 weeks to check again. After a few months and
few checks will have a better idea of how much water is really being used.
Sell, Ken wrote:
Hi,
I have 16 US125s (96v total) system, and just did my
first watering after 6 weeks and 400 miles. The
batteries took about 1.5 gallons total. Does this
sound about right for the time/mileage?
I live in the Bay Area (California), so the weather
is moderate with mild temperatures and humidity.
The plates appeared to be completely covered when I
did the refill. I used a battery filling can, which
has a special nozzle to limit the water height to
the appropriate level.
Thanks,
.....Ken
_________
Jim Coate
1992 Chevy S10
1970's Elec-Trak
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I looked at this a couple of years ago; a quick look-over at the dealer
seemed promising, but I didn't make any measurements at that time
(the salesman wasn't amused or intrigued, in fact, it was Larry Fenton,
the guy (mentioned on the Prius list) I later tried to buy a Prius from,
but wouldn't deal (whereas another dealer quoted $500 less over the
phone)). Anyway, it's been a year since I checked, but they were
holding resale value well (>$7500 then), and haven't found any with
dead motors that are out of warrantee (hadn't been long enough, yet).
Let us know what you find out...
-Chris
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peri Hartman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2003 10:18 AM
Subject: Re: toyota echo conversion
> I don't own an Echo and have yet to go take measurements. I will do this
in
> the next few days, I hope. Anyway I am hoping to fit 22 batteries under
the
> hood and in the trunk. By the way, the Echo has a 5 speed manual tranny.
>
> You mention, though, "quite a sag". I have read parts of Evercel's
> technical document --
> http://www.evercel.com/download/nickelzinctechnology.pdf -- and they do
talk
> about a sag dependent on temperature of about 15% (200mV), where the
higher
> temperature (40 deg C) produces the higher voltage. They also mention a
sag
> due to current load, but I can't find any numbers. (They do refer to a
> number of graphs, but they are missing from the document...) In a later
> paragraph, they claim that capacity is essentially independent of current
> load, though. I'm not sure how both of these statements can be true. One
> thought is, as current load increases, so does temperature, thereby
somewhat
> neutralizing the temperature and internal resistance effects.
>
> Do you have any references to actual emperical data?
>
> -- Peri
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bob Bath" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2003 6:11 AM
> Subject: Re: toyota echo conversion
>
>
> > It strikes me as an extremely narrow body. Remember,
> > those Evercels have quite a sag, so you'll need to fit
> > about 20-22 of them, both to overcome the sag, and
> > also to get high enough voltage for the AC controller
> > to perform decently.
> >
> > --- 1sclunn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > Do you have an echo ? dose it have a standard tranny
> > > ? They look like good
> > > car's for conversions to me
> > > Steve Clunn
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Peri Hartman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2003 10:39 PM
> > > Subject: toyota echo conversion
> > >
> > >
> > > > Hi
> > > >
> > > > I'm considering doing a conversion using a Toyota
> > > Echo. Given it's
> > > > relatively light weight, low drag coefficient, and
> > > ample cabin size, it
> > > > seems like a good choice. However, I don't know
> > > what problems may lurk,
> > > > such as enough space for batteries and space for
> > > mounting the motor. Does
> > > > anyone have experience with this vehicle or have
> > > any advice, positive or
> > > > negative?
> > > >
> > > > I'm considering one of the AC motors and
> > > controllers from Siemens with
> > > > Evercel NiZn batteries.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Peri Hartman
> > > > Seattle
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > =====
> > '92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
> > (in progress)! ____
> > __/__|__\ __
> > =D-------/ - - \
> > 'O'-----'O'-'
> > Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering
> wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM).
> > http://calendar.yahoo.com
> >
>
--- End Message ---
