EV Digest 2829
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: battery cooling
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
2) Re: battery cooling
by "Richard Furniss" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Th!nk battery watering
by Nick Carter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Efficiency numbers
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Efficiency numbers
by "garry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Efficiency numbers
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: No Limo for this Wedding, the Tango Takes Two
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: toyota echo conversion
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Fwd from Bob Rice: Electrak
by Seth Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: cooling batteries
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: DC-DC's in parallel?
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: toyota echo conversion; now NiZn sag
by "Bryan Avery" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Battery pack sizing questions
by "Bryan Avery" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: DC-DC's in parallel?
by "Dave Anderson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) EVLN(Segwaying is even more fun when drunk)-long
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Do you leave atleast 1/4 inch spacing between batteries for cooling ?
On Sun, 01 Jun 2003 17:21:29 -0400 fred whitridge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
writes:
> Jim Coate wrote:
> "With the various advanced batteries, it sounds like
> active cooling
>
> systems may be needed. For the LiIons, the
> Evercells,
> and most of
> the
> NiCads, no provisions are made into the battery
> cases.
> What would
> be an
> effective and efficient way to provide the needed
> cooling? Is
> there
> anyway to estimate what the cooling load would be?"
>
> Jim:
>
> I am wrestling with this as I get the Evercel MB80's in my car. I
> dread
> ever having to pull out the pack so I want to get the basics of an
> active cooling system in before I put in the batteries and re-cable
> them
> (from Optima automotive posts to Evercels dinky 1/4" bolts.)
>
> I started with routing a channel for 1/4" I.D. Norprene tubing into
> a
> piece of plywood that snugly fit the bottom of my rear battery box.
> That was a failure since the pump I have could only push 1 liter per
> minute thru the tubing. This from a pump that does 4gpm running
> unconstricted.
>
> The second attempt was much better and was inspired by Roger
> Stockton, a
> grid of 1/2" copper pipe. The whole grid is shown being leak tested
> in
> the pool with 20psi of air.....and voila no leaks. There are a
> bunch of
> leaves and stuff floating on the surface in the picture, alas. I
> previously flow tested about 2/3 of this serpentine deal and it
> moved
> 3gpm so this flow rate should be fine. While this is tedious to
> solder
> all these joints, it will ultimately prove cheaper than larger
> diameter
> Norprene would have been. I would have tried flexible copper tubing
> and
> a bender, but it didn't seem to hit this same small radius that 90
> degree and 90 degree "street L" fittings can achieve. The batteries
> will be sitting on this, with 5/8" wood spacers between the loops so
> they don't get squished. I also intend to put a Dallas one-wire
> temp
> sensor under, and perhaps also on top or on one terminal, of each
> battery. These are very accurate and I have proved them out with 10
> Dallas 18S20 sensors sitting on the current Optima YT pack. The
> other
> end of this cooling serpentine will be either a little
> radiator/heater
> core or some loops of norprene in the unheated pool, or possibly a
> loop
> of copper inside the little fridge that just came home for the
> summer
> with one of my kids. There is a huge bunch of PC "Overclockers" and
> active coolers that do gorgeous Wayland-esque workmanship liquid
> cooling
> on their PC's complete with clear tubing and UV dyes and black
> lights.
> Do a google search...
>
> So....I don't know the total thermal load but I intend to find out
> in my
> brute force, i.e., non thermal/liquid engineer method. Something
> tells
> me that 700 pounds of NiZn or LiOn which go up 50 degrees F under
> fairly
> light load are going to want to dissipate a bunch of heat by
> whatever
> means possible. If homespun liquid cooling like this helps, I am
> sure
> the battery manufacturers will take notice. I believe that the
> newest
> generation of Texaco Ovonic NiMh are going to have hose barb and an
> internal serpentine cooling path built into the case. At least that
> was
> the design that ECD showed at one of their annual meetings.
>
> http://home.ix.netcom.com/~fw/norprene.JPG
>
> http://home.ix.netcom.com/~fw/no_bubbles2.JPG
>
> More as I learn more. Victor is shipping me a Brusa and I am
> struggling
> to get higher amperage charge curves from Evercel. I hope to have
> the
> first string of 10 MB80's in the car by mid June. This will follow
> with
> a second paralled string of MB80's in the fall/winter when I can rip
> out
> and rebuild the front battery racks.
>
>
>
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Tom,
Living in the desert I have given this some though, I started out with 1/4
inch copper tubing in the plywood, then quickly figured out that the first
batters in the cooling circuit was hogging all the cooling and the last
battery in the cooling loop were the warmest.
The next try was to wrap each battery with 1/4 inch (or use 1/8 inch)
tubing, three loops, around the outside of the battery and then wrap each
battery with bubble wrap, each battery will be fed with the same temperature
water (coolant), I was going to use plastic tubing to connect each battery
to a tank which was pressurized by the pump, there is also some refrigerant
cooling units in the surplus centers, all of this would run off the house
outlet while the car is on charge to reduce heat during charge.
Mine isn't finished yet, so keep us posted on what you come up with and the
results.
www.lasvegasev.com
Richard Furniss
Las Vegas, NV
1986 Mazda EX-7 192v
1981 Lectra Centauri 108v
3 Wheel Trail Master 12v
Board Member, www.lveva.org
Las Vegas Electric Vehicle Association
----- Original Message -----
From: "fred whitridge" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2003 2:21 PM
Subject: battery cooling
> Jim Coate wrote:
> "With the various advanced batteries, it sounds like
> active cooling
>
> systems may be needed. For the LiIons, the Evercells,
> and most of
> the
> NiCads, no provisions are made into the battery cases.
> What would
> be an
> effective and efficient way to provide the needed
> cooling? Is
> there
> anyway to estimate what the cooling load would be?"
>
> Jim:
>
> I am wrestling with this as I get the Evercel MB80's in my car. I dread
> ever having to pull out the pack so I want to get the basics of an
> active cooling system in before I put in the batteries and re-cable them
> (from Optima automotive posts to Evercels dinky 1/4" bolts.)
>
> I started with routing a channel for 1/4" I.D. Norprene tubing into a
> piece of plywood that snugly fit the bottom of my rear battery box.
> That was a failure since the pump I have could only push 1 liter per
> minute thru the tubing. This from a pump that does 4gpm running
> unconstricted.
>
> The second attempt was much better and was inspired by Roger Stockton, a
> grid of 1/2" copper pipe. The whole grid is shown being leak tested in
> the pool with 20psi of air.....and voila no leaks. There are a bunch of
> leaves and stuff floating on the surface in the picture, alas. I
> previously flow tested about 2/3 of this serpentine deal and it moved
> 3gpm so this flow rate should be fine. While this is tedious to solder
> all these joints, it will ultimately prove cheaper than larger diameter
> Norprene would have been. I would have tried flexible copper tubing and
> a bender, but it didn't seem to hit this same small radius that 90
> degree and 90 degree "street L" fittings can achieve. The batteries
> will be sitting on this, with 5/8" wood spacers between the loops so
> they don't get squished. I also intend to put a Dallas one-wire temp
> sensor under, and perhaps also on top or on one terminal, of each
> battery. These are very accurate and I have proved them out with 10
> Dallas 18S20 sensors sitting on the current Optima YT pack. The other
> end of this cooling serpentine will be either a little radiator/heater
> core or some loops of norprene in the unheated pool, or possibly a loop
> of copper inside the little fridge that just came home for the summer
> with one of my kids. There is a huge bunch of PC "Overclockers" and
> active coolers that do gorgeous Wayland-esque workmanship liquid cooling
> on their PC's complete with clear tubing and UV dyes and black lights.
> Do a google search...
>
> So....I don't know the total thermal load but I intend to find out in my
> brute force, i.e., non thermal/liquid engineer method. Something tells
> me that 700 pounds of NiZn or LiOn which go up 50 degrees F under fairly
> light load are going to want to dissipate a bunch of heat by whatever
> means possible. If homespun liquid cooling like this helps, I am sure
> the battery manufacturers will take notice. I believe that the newest
> generation of Texaco Ovonic NiMh are going to have hose barb and an
> internal serpentine cooling path built into the case. At least that was
> the design that ECD showed at one of their annual meetings.
>
> http://home.ix.netcom.com/~fw/norprene.JPG
>
> http://home.ix.netcom.com/~fw/no_bubbles2.JPG
>
> More as I learn more. Victor is shipping me a Brusa and I am struggling
> to get higher amperage charge curves from Evercel. I hope to have the
> first string of 10 MB80's in the car by mid June. This will follow with
> a second paralled string of MB80's in the fall/winter when I can rip out
> and rebuild the front battery racks.
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>The Th!nk (I think) needed monthly battery maintenance that could only
>be performed by the dealer. This may or may not be a trend.
>
Not every month - every 3,000-3,500 miles.
Still Th!nking in Northern CA,
Nick
Dr Nick Carter,
Owner, npc Imaging,
2228 Magowan Drive, Santa Rosa, CA 95405
[EMAIL PROTECTED] Tel/fax: +1 (707) 573 9361
http://www.npcimaging.com
Th!nk City EV driver &
President, North Bay Electric Auto Association
"Spare the air every day - drive electric!"
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sun, 2003-06-01 at 17:08, Lee Hart wrote:
> Lee Hart wrote:
> >> What does a new Escort engine cost?
>
> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> > Just called Autozone. New engine costs $1499. Like I said, less than
> > two cheap battery packs
>
> That's not new; its rebuilt. It's like buying surplus nicads or used
> golf cart batteries.
Basically semantics. It's rebuilt to new specs using many new parts and
comes with a warranty that's almost as good as the original car. It's
been my experience that a quality rebuilt motor lasts just as long as
the original motors.
Neither surplus Nicads nor used GC batteries come with warranties.
Buying used GC batteries generally costs you more in the long run than
new ones so if you want to do your comparisons with them go ahead, it
puts ICEs even farther in the lead.
Good surplus NiCads can be found occasionally, but I have yet to find
any that are cheaper than GC batteries (energy wise) so again if you
want to run the figures using more expensive batteries, go ahead.
At any rate the average EVer won't be able to buy surplus NiCads, there
simply aren't enough to go around.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just thought I would add my 2 cents worth here.
I don't think you guys are comparing apples with apples here.
Seldom will someone go out and buy a new EV or a new car to convert to EV,
so most of the cars are older ones converted.
Instead of today's figures why not look at the cars figures.
I drive a Toyota Celica 89 gt4, it costs me $10 a day in gas and I only do
50 k per day ...something is not right with it, but hey that's my daily
running cost.
My EV is now a 1986 Mitsubishi station wagon because it was free with a dead
motor and doesn't have a bad diff ratio like my little van does.
My batteries cost $10 each so that's $120 for batteries and the forklift I
got all the motors and controllers out of cost $600, for which I got 2
motors and controllers.
My batteries will cost me a whole $1.20 a day to charge and I fully expect
to be able to do the entire 50 k round trip on this charge as long as I keep
the speed down.
Now if I compare apples with apples I would have to pay around $1000 for a
car of this year in road going condition and I wouldn't expect it to last
long and the best I could hope for would be to reduce my daily cost to $5
for gas.
So the first day I drive my EV car, I save $283.80. and then $3.80 per day.
189 days after the first day, I have fully covered the cost of my car in
fuel savings, that's just over 6 months.
Every 31 days I will have saved enough to totally replace my used batteries
at $10 a battery after that.
That's a saving of $120 every 31 days over the petrol version of this car.
There will be no more general running costs on this car than the petrol
powered version per mile and in fact there will be savings here too ... no
oil changes, no filters, no exhaust system rusting out, no fan belts to wear
out, no water additives needed in winter and im sure there are a lot of
other hidden costs that I cant think of right now.
Remember apples with apples if I compare the cost of this to my current car
at $10 a day my daily saving is $8.80 and that's $272 every 31 days, that
would mean im still coming out ahead if I had to buy a new battery pack
every year.
I see where you get your numbers from, I just don't think they are justified
when there are clearly cheaper alternatives available.
Garry Stanley
Cable.net.nz
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
>> That's not new; its rebuilt. It's like buying surplus nicads or used
>> golf cart batteries.
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> Basically semantics. It's rebuilt to new specs using many new parts
> and comes with a warranty that's almost as good as the original car.
Yes, it is semantics. It is certainly not a new motor; maybe 10% of the
parts are new, the rest are old ones that were still within specs. Same
with a used battery; it may have been tested and/or reconditioned to
perform as well as new; but it isn't really new.
> It's been my experience that a quality rebuilt motor lasts just as
> long as the original motors.
Then why don't they use them in new cars? :-)
We know why. They aren't really as good.
> Neither surplus Nicads nor used GC batteries come with warranties.
Yes, some do. It depends where you buy them.
> Buying used GC batteries generally costs you more in the long run
> than new ones so if you want to do your comparisons with them go
> ahead, it puts ICEs even farther in the lead.
People often replace batteries for no good reason. They had a bad one,
and replaced the whole pack. Or rules say that have to replace them
every X years, good or bad. Or they don't need them any more. Or they
have sat around so that they thought the batteries were shot, but all
they needed was reconditioning. So, you *can* get better-than-new deals
on used batteries if you know what you're getting.
> Good surplus NiCads can be found occasionally, but I have yet to find
> any that are cheaper than GC batteries (energy wise) so again if you
> want to run the figures using more expensive batteries, go ahead.
> At any rate the average EVer won't be able to buy surplus NiCads, there
> simply aren't enough to go around.
Just as there aren't enough used engines to put in every car. There
doesn't need to be. Just enough for me (and you :-)
As you say, it's all semantics. If you want to make ICEs come out
cheaper, you can always pick your facts to make it so. And I can always
pick my facts to make EVs cheaper. Neither approach proves anything.
But, when you have large numbers of vehicles (in a fleet, for example),
all being owned, operated, and maintained by the same people, and you
find both ICE and EV versions in use (like golf carts or fork lifts),
then you find that the EVs cost more initially but are consistently
cheaper to run. The EVs win in the long run, due to their lower
maintenance and repairs, even when you take the cost of batteries into
account.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Do you think you could make a stretch Tango in a month and a half. I'd be
one of a kind.... A 6 seater would be just right for the parents and Bride
and Groom.......7 seater if you wanted a driver.....Lawrence Rhodes....
----------------------------------------------------
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick Woodbury" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV List List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2003 4:06 PM
Subject: No Limo for this Wedding, the Tango Takes Two
> > With the arrival of prom & wedding season, I've been impressed with all
> > the stretch SUV limos appearing.
>
> Funny you should mention that. My daughter Cindy is getting married on the
> 12th of July. I'm driving her to the Altar in (you guessed it) the Tango.
> She's already made a vale that hangs off to the back hatch with the words
> "Just Married". That should be a little classier than the limo, shoe
polish,
> and a bunch of noisy tin cans. Her husband will then drive it along the
> river behind the opera house to the hotel nearby.
>
> Rick Woodbury Phone: (509) 624-0762
> President, Commuter Cars Corporation Toll-free: (800) 468-0944
> Doubling the capacity of freeways Fax: (509) 624-1466
> Quadrupling the capacity of parking Cellular: (509) 979-1815
> Zero to 60 in under 4 seconds
> 715 E. Sprague Ave., Suite 114 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Spokane, WA 99202 Web: http://www.commutercars.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Personally I think the Prius would be a better candidate. ......You're
already most of the way there.....Lawrence Rhodes....I was thinking of
mounting a small ADC motor where the Ice was and use both electric motors
together keeping the regen function. Seems to me it might work well.
Lawrence Rhodes.....
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Peri Hartman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2003 10:39 PM
Subject: toyota echo conversion
> Hi
>
> I'm considering doing a conversion using a Toyota Echo. Given it's
> relatively light weight, low drag coefficient, and ample cabin size, it
> seems like a good choice. However, I don't know what problems may lurk,
> such as enough space for batteries and space for mounting the motor. Does
> anyone have experience with this vehicle or have any advice, positive or
> negative?
>
> I'm considering one of the AC motors and controllers from Siemens with
> Evercel NiZn batteries.
>
> Thanks,
> Peri Hartman
> Seattle
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Begin forwarded message:
From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Sun Jun 1, 2003 10:10:08 PM US/Eastern
To: "Seth Murray" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Electrak
Hi Seth an' All;
It slowed down to a gentle dribble so-time to go and pick up the
Electrac! Fired up the trusty rusty Ford Van SBT/ Slow Boxy Thing to
go pick
it up. Piece of cake! Hada set of ramps, all we had to do was push it
in! No
batteries, so tractor is nice and light. In a few we had it safely
inside, a
E-12 model, complete and resplendent in yellow rust o matic color
scheme!
The mower deck followed the tractor aboard, Gees! They sure fit nicely
in
Ford vans, or on a small trailer. Hmmm? To a car show Electrak in tow
behind
the Rabbit for an all EVent. Getting ahead of myself a bit, here. Got
it
home, downloasded it and pushed it in range of the garden hose for
first
cleanup. Blast the mouse nests and tree debris out of everything.
Dumped it
over on it's side to hose out the battery boxes, yes! They are solid
steel!
No blown out rusty parts, yet. Only major structurasl stuff IO can
find to
weld/ repair is the back hatch that the seat goes on! A bit rusted and
bent,
easy fix. The mice long gone, guy cleaned them out for me, already,
the rest
of the debris washed out. Oh so nice to be able to dump the tractor on
its
side to scrub it out! No spilled oil and glop dripping out! Wow! What a
simple thing to look at and work on! Single golf cart style motor
belted to
the tranny, a massive cast iron looking thing, wires, good shape,
running to
the controls up above deck. Wanna sandblast EVerything clean, for some
good
old Rust Olium paint, rusty metal primer that great Red Stuff I use for
battery wracks and the like. A few coats of Tractor Yellow would look
good,
too. Not only did I get a complete restorable tractor, but the
origional
Owners Manual, fram-able afds , a copy of Popular Mechanics, circa
April
1970 telling all about the great Electric Tracter that Generous
Electric
will be selling! Fun reading, also same issue telling all about the
new AMC
Gremlen, going up against the VW bug. No contest, but I guess there are
Gremlin discussion groups an' stuff on Line? EVen as breat 1974 ad
with the
new models making the old ones go on sale for 800 bux for the E 12! I
guess
the electrics were more than a cheepo gas job from Sears, or Western
Auto?
For yu El;ectrak freeks; When did they quit making them? And why?
Bettya
could build a better one today with a moulded one piece body of that
carbon
plastic stuff, no rust! Bolt yur hardware axles, what not to this
strong
structure. Prresto! An EV most EVerybody could use. Wouldn't need to be
crash tested, or airbags and all that stuff. Sell this machine with a
plethura of goodies, plow winches, sweeper, tiller, like GE did. But I
would
like to see a good stout inverter 36 to 60 hz 120 volts to run yur
other
tools from the powrer supply. And , Of Course! A Wayland signature
stereo,
too! Make it Just too much damn FUN to mow the lawn. Yud hafta pry the
kid
off it to try it yourself! An Alltrax controller, get Damon, of DCP
fame
involved here, you could hose off the whole tractor, controller,
batteries,
the works. After all ya wanna keep this cool machine showroom clean,
too.
But the time is NOW for the return of Electrak. If GE isn't
interested.......a way to get poz cash flow to build a EV down the
road,
after ya swept the tractor biz into your fold. But looking at the
'Trak from
a new owners view, short wheel base, mower deck up front where ya can
SEE
what it's doing, nice weight distrubution, pull the deck up and flip
it over
for repair. Nice! Gees! I EVen have a nice Electrak seat with the GE
Curly
cue llogo! Doesn't get better than that. This machine will have a spot
in my
new garage, ready to trundle out, to do battle with the the snow next
winter. Wheee! Gotyta try the snow thrower! And for once I don't CARE
how
much it weighs! Like a locomotive ya WANT it heavy! Easy to do with a
buncha
T 145's! If it EVer stops RAINING here, Ill get her up and running. The
motor sure looks like a golf cart motor, havent opened it up to see if
there
are any more mice aboard<g>!
Seeya
Bob
--
QUESTION INTERNAL COMBUSTION
http://users.wpi.edu/~sethm/
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/387.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I agree. I have tested both EverCells and NiCads. Both get uncomfortably
warm (>100F in a 60F shop) during discharge and/or charge.
The trick is to get ALL of the batteries to stay cool. Not just the ones at
the beginning of the cooling loop resulting in the last ones in the loop
getting too hot.
One idea that was tossed around it to use flooded battery boxes where a
cooling fluid bathes the sides and bottom of the batteries in a continuous
flow. If the velocity is fast enough, the difference in temperature between
the batteries is minimized. The cooling fluid could be either a liquid or a
gas. The trick is to control the flow and temperature gradients to get a
constant battery temperature.
If a low boiling point working fluid is used, the latent heat of
vaporization (and boiling point) would assure a constant temperature. The
heat pipe concept comes to mind.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Coate" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2003 11:39 AM
Subject: cooling batteries
> With the various advanced batteries, it sounds like active cooling
> systems may be needed. For the LiIons, the Evercells, and most of the
> NiCads, no provisions are made into the battery cases. What would be an
> effective and efficient way to provide the needed cooling? Is there
> anyway to estimate what the cooling load would be?
>
>
> _________
> Jim Coate
> 1992 Chevy S10
> 1970's Elec-Trak
> http://www.eeevee.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes. The trick is to make then share the load.
This can be done using the wiring harness resistance.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Anderson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2003 9:19 AM
Subject: DC-DC's in parallel?
> I have come across some no-name surplus 120v-13.8v DC-DC boards rated 5
> amps. Can I parallel two of them to get 10 amps capacity, three to get
15,
> etc?
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As for differences in NiZn batteries, when I was looking at NiZn about 6
months ago I was told that the new MB series of Evercell batteries could
handle quite a bit higher amp draw than the older M series. Don't know
if the voltage sag would be any different though.
-Bryan Avery
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On
> Behalf Of Bob Bath
> Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2003 12:02 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Was: toyota echo conversion; now NiZn sag
>
> Two EVers, Jon "Sheer" Pullen, and Leo (forgot last
> name), are using them. 264V (Jon's car) will sag down
> to 170 on a hard pull (ie, uphill), and if you're
> going with a normal flooded replacement pack (120V,
> Leo's car), you will _really_ sacrifice performance,
> according to Leo.
> Perhaps there is a new generation of NiZn that I
> just haven't heard about and missed discussion about,
> but that's the latest I knew.
>
> --- Christopher Meier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I looked at this a couple of years ago; a quick
> > look-over at the dealer
> > seemed promising, but I didn't make any measurements
> > at that time
> > (the salesman wasn't amused or intrigued, in fact,
> > it was Larry Fenton,
> > the guy (mentioned on the Prius list) I later tried
> > to buy a Prius from,
> > but wouldn't deal (whereas another dealer quoted
> > $500 less over the
> > phone)). Anyway, it's been a year since I checked,
> > but they were
> > holding resale value well (>$7500 then), and haven't
> > found any with
> > dead motors that are out of warrantee (hadn't been
> > long enough, yet).
> >
> > Let us know what you find out...
> >
> > -Chris
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Peri Hartman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2003 10:18 AM
> > Subject: Re: toyota echo conversion
> >
> >
> > > I don't own an Echo and have yet to go take
> > measurements. I will do this
> > in
> > > the next few days, I hope. Anyway I am hoping to
> > fit 22 batteries under
> > the
> > > hood and in the trunk. By the way, the Echo has a
> > 5 speed manual tranny.
> > >
> > > You mention, though, "quite a sag". I have read
> > parts of Evercel's
> > > technical document --
> > >
> >
> http://www.evercel.com/download/nickelzinctechnology.pdf
> > -- and they do
> > talk
> > > about a sag dependent on temperature of about 15%
> > (200mV), where the
> > higher
> > > temperature (40 deg C) produces the higher
> > voltage. They also mention a
> > sag
> > > due to current load, but I can't find any numbers.
> > (They do refer to a
> > > number of graphs, but they are missing from the
> > document...) In a later
> > > paragraph, they claim that capacity is essentially
> > independent of current
> > > load, though. I'm not sure how both of these
> > statements can be true. One
> > > thought is, as current load increases, so does
> > temperature, thereby
> > somewhat
> > > neutralizing the temperature and internal
> > resistance effects.
> > >
> > > Do you have any references to actual emperical
> > data?
> > >
> > > -- Peri
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Bob Bath" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2003 6:11 AM
> > > Subject: Re: toyota echo conversion
> > >
> > >
> > > > It strikes me as an extremely narrow body.
> > Remember,
> > > > those Evercels have quite a sag, so you'll need
> > to fit
> > > > about 20-22 of them, both to overcome the sag,
> > and
> > > > also to get high enough voltage for the AC
> > controller
> > > > to perform decently.
> > > >
> > > > --- 1sclunn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > > Do you have an echo ? dose it have a standard
> > tranny
> > > > > ? They look like good
> > > > > car's for conversions to me
> > > > > Steve Clunn
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Peri Hartman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > > Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2003 10:39 PM
> > > > > Subject: toyota echo conversion
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hi
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'm considering doing a conversion using a
> > Toyota
> > > > > Echo. Given it's
> > > > > > relatively light weight, low drag
> > coefficient, and
> > > > > ample cabin size, it
> > > > > > seems like a good choice. However, I don't
> > know
> > > > > what problems may lurk,
> > > > > > such as enough space for batteries and space
> > for
> > > > > mounting the motor. Does
> > > > > > anyone have experience with this vehicle or
> > have
> > > > > any advice, positive or
> > > > > > negative?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'm considering one of the AC motors and
> > > > > controllers from Siemens with
> > > > > > Evercel NiZn batteries.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > Peri Hartman
> > > > > > Seattle
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > =====
> > > > '92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
> > > > (in progress)! ____
> > > > __/__|__\ __
> > > > =D-------/ - - \
> > > > 'O'-----'O'-'
> > > > Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe
> > came out of the steering
> > > wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
> > > >
> > > > __________________________________
> > > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > > Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync
> > to Outlook(TM).
> > > > http://calendar.yahoo.com
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
>
> =====
> '92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
> (in progress)! ____
> __/__|__\ __
> =D-------/ - - \
> 'O'-----'O'-'
> Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the
steering
> wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM).
> http://calendar.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>
> It does seem that I see higher instantaneous amp draw if I bang on the
> throttle. Once it settles, it stays below what ever Ibat_Max_Pos is
set
> at.
>
I was under the impression that if you floor the gas pedal when it is in
"economy/valet" mode, it will still give you full power, I guess as a
safety measure to make sure you still have enough power to get out of
the way when you find yourself in a dangerous situation. Victor can
probably verify if this is correct or not.
-Bryan Avery
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Joe. I see what you mean. Splice them in to different locations in
the 12v circuits, right? Actually, I was thinking about totally physically
separating the loads as well. For example, lights on one, contactor and fan
on another.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2003 8:57 PM
Subject: Re: DC-DC's in parallel?
Yes. The trick is to make then share the load.
This can be done using the wiring harness resistance.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Anderson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2003 9:19 AM
Subject: DC-DC's in parallel?
> I have come across some no-name surplus 120v-13.8v DC-DC boards rated 5
> amps. Can I parallel two of them to get 10 amps capacity, three to get
15,
> etc?
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(Segwaying is even more fun when drunk)-long
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/archives/media/2003/media0530.html
A Nice Ride By Erik Wemple
Conventional wisdom holds that the online magazine Slate
can't be trusted to report on the activities of its
corporate parent, Microsoft. These days, however, close
readers may want to add another company to that list:
Segway.
Segway is the innovative New Hampshire based company that
manufactures the Segway Human Transporter (HT), a
scooterlike device that was supposed to revolutionize how we
organize cities. Last week, Slate sent New Yorker writer Tad
Friend to Paris to file a travelogue chronicling his
adventures on the HT with his wife, New York Times writer
Amanda Hesser.
The result was well-phrased shilling. "[W]e discovered that
Segwaying is even more fun when you're a little
drunk....Like dancing and sex and most excitements,
Segwaying comes more easily if you don't think about it too
much," writes Friend about riding around on his HT after a
enjoying a five-hour meal with Vogue writer Jeffrey
Steingarten.
The Segway drew quite a bit of attention in France. The
two-wheeled machine, which looks like a push mower tipped
upright, uses computers and gyroscopes to interpret your
wishes: To move ahead, just lean forward; to back up, just
lean backward. An easy-to-use device on the handlebar takes
care of the steering. The battery-powered HT moves at a
maximum speed of 12.5 mph.
In the course of five dispatches, Slate managed to associate
the gizmo-laden machine with the highest ideals of the
French republic: "Libert�, Egalit�, Fraternit�and Segway,"
reads the header for Friend's May 23 entry. Sounds like a
good start for Segway's upcoming rollout in France.
Slate editor Jacob Weisberg scoffs at any suggestion that
his mag ran an advertorial for the machines. "We didn't have
any idea whether it was going to come out favorable to
Segway or unfavorable to Segway," he says. "I'm sure there
were a lot of things in there that the Segway people wince
at."
Sure, there are a couple of mildly HT-negative passages in
the package, hemmed in by raves about what Friend terms a
"wonderful machine." A skeptical Parisian puts the Segway
team on the defensive by dissing the meager four-hour
battery life and limited cruising range. But in the end,
Friend's machine has just enough juice to make it back to
the hotel after all.
By the standards of Segway reporting, such sprinklings of
fleur de sel�along with Slate's disclosure of Segway's
participation in the project�make the Paris stories some of
the most honest and transparent coverage to date of the
gyroscopic-scooter phenomenon.
When other media outlets, after all, go after the Segway
story, they do the same thing Friend did: They ride the
machine and sit down to write glowing things about it. And
in the process, they give short shrift to the broader issues
raised by the device.
"The various media�nationally, regionally, locally�are
upholding P.T. Barnum's dictum about a sucker being born
every minute," says Bob Planthold, a San Francisco�based
disability-rights advocate. "They've been naive and gullible
in swallowing whole all of the Segway arguments."
What the media have swallowed, actually, is a masterful PR
campaign, conceived by very intelligent people and executed
by a platoon of techno-geek foot soldiers. The press
fascination with the HT dates back to January 2001, when the
online news site Inside.com broke the story of a book
proposal about the device, then known as "Ginger." Details
on Ginger were scarce, but venture capitalist John Doerr
speculated that it could be bigger than the Internet. Other
big shots made similarly extravagant claims about the
invention.
The secrecy electrified the media, which responded with all
kinds of guesses that Ginger was some kind of aircraft or
Space Age device. All that mattered to Segway was that
people were talking about it.
The Ginger sensation laid the groundwork for the second
phase of Segway's press coup. Last November, the company
staged a contest: Winners of a 75-word essay competition
would earn the right to buy an HT at full price! The
sweetener was that the 30 premier essayists would get their
HTs a few months before the rest of the world, along with a
tour of the Segway factory in New Hampshire and dinner with
the device's inventor, Dean Kamen.
Technology enthusiasts filled the company's in-box with
riffs on why they wanted the device. "All I can tell you is
that we received more than we could count," says Segway
Director of Public Affairs Stacy Ferguson.
Contest winners describe the New Hampshire visit as a
collegial affair. They learned how to operate the HT and
chatted with Kamen. "It was very cool," remembers contest
winner Frank Tropea, of Brooklyn. "He has a helicopter
hangar, his own baseball field, a tennis court, and a
windmill."
Company officials never even suggested that the prize
winners help promote the scooter, according to Ferguson and
essay winners. "If a company asked for that, I would say
no," says Phillip Torrone, whose wife won the contest.
Torrone now runs a popular Web site for Segway owners.
Of course, Segway didn't have to tell any of the contest
winners to pimp for the HT. The story line was just too much
for media outlets nationwide to resist: Local Man Is First
in State to Own a Segway.
With some variation, that's just how the articles came out.
Take this headline from the North County Times of Southern
California: "Essay earns man first Segway in North County."
The story described how new HT owner Dave Megill was "taken
by the 'elegant simplicity' and the 'freshness of the
creativity' of his new toy." It also left unchallenged
Megill's contention that a pedestrian lifestyle has become
an anachronism.
In what could only be a coincidence, contest winners came
from all over the country. Michael Osver, for instance, was
the only contest winner from the District. And sure enough,
the Washington Post featured him cruising on 17th Street,
wowing passers-by.
After getting his machine, Tropea rang up New York Times
technology writer John Schwartz, who filed a positive yet
balanced story on the Segway. Says Tropea, "[Schwartz] said,
'Look, we're going to do a "warts-and-all" piece, not a
fluff piece.' He spent some time with me, and I let him try
it....He couldn't get a negative quote from anybody. The
article was tremendously positive."
Other outlets that bit on the first-in-town conceit include
the Seattle Post-Intelligencer, the Richmond Times Dispatch,
the Chicago Tribune, the Los Angeles Times, the Union Leader
(New Hampshire), the Lexington Herald Leader (Kentucky), 50
Plus Lifestyles (Florida), and the Philadelphia Inquirer.
(Philadelphia's first rider wasn't a contest winner.)
The media paradigm for Segway coverage goes like this: Begin
with a scene description of proud new scooter owner flitting
about. Capture quotes from admiring onlookers. Describe how
technology has improved the life of the new owner. Briefly
mention regulatory issues regarding sidewalk use. End with
another scene of joyous riding.
Philadelphia Inquirer reporter Murray Dubin hewed pretty
close to that formula in a May 15 piece on the HT. The
reporter's puffery was informed at least in part by a de
rigueur spin on the device. "It was amazing, and I'm someone
with lousy balance....Even though the Segway doesn't read
your mind, it feels as though it's reading your mind," Dubin
said in an interview.
The company's techno-seduction of journalists has driven
pedestrian advocates bonkers. "People are enamored with new
technologies, and it's kind of interesting that walking or
being a pedestrian is a derogatory comment....[People] want
something that is flashy," says Michael Smith, president of
the board of Walk San Francisco. Occasionally, media outlets
such as the Post have written regulatory pieces examining
the safety issues posed by the Segway, but they're
inevitably drowned out by the features.
The Inquirer, for instance, compared the effects of driving
the Segway to those of donning a cape and revving up the
Batmobile. So far, the HT is more like the recumbent
bicycle: popular with a handful of true believers. Segway
will not disclose how many HTs it has �old. Company
spokesperson Ferguson, though, says the company has yet to
reorganize entire cityscapes. "We've been told by
transportation experts that we are a statistical blip of a
blip of a blip for urban-planning purposes," says Ferguson.
If the HT does follow the pattern of other hot technologies,
it will eventually morph into a big blob in the map of urban
planners. Prices will drop, and 65-pound machines piloted by
200-pound riders moving three times faster than walkers will
take over sidewalks everywhere. According to Ferguson, 36
states and the District have cleared the scooter for
sidewalks; six other states already had laws permitting
sidewalk use. (San Francisco has banned the machines on
sidewalks.)
If Segway driving moves out of the realm of the theoretical
and becomes part of the traffic flow, reporters will adopt a
more skeptical tone. But a few may have to get run over
first.
Until then, enchantment with this device will drive
coverage. A May 10 Post story, for example, started this
way: "Anne Kinkella stepped on the Segway, and the world
opened up.
"For the first time in the 17 years she's lived in
Alexandria, Kinkella, who has spina bifida, could zoom along
the bike path that hugs the Potomac River. 'I never knew
there was sculpture along the water,' she said."
Before Post reporter Lyndsey Layton wrote the piece, D.C.
Segway aficionado John Harrington, who runs the Web site
DC-Segways.com, arranged a test ride for her. "Lyndsey was
thankful to have tried it, she said she had a better
perspective having ridden it..." writes Harrington via
e-mail. "It really does make a big difference." (Full
disclosure: Layton is a friend of mine.)
The article sympathetically chronicles Kinkella's battles
with Metro over using a Segway on her daily commute. Only
two-thirds of the way through the piece�after Kinkella has
compared herself to Rosa Parks and a disability-rights
activist has called Metro's Segway ban "outrageous"�does the
Post provide an important piece of context: In April,
Kinkella lost control of her motorized scooter on the Metro
platform at the Eisenhower Avenue Station.
Unlike, say, a power lawnmower, a Segway doesn't have an
automatic kill switch that activates if you stop holding the
controls. "I sat down, didn't shut it off, and let go of
it," Kinkella recalls. The machine took off on its own and
flopped onto the subway's track bed. Metro safety official
Ron Keele says service had to be temporarily shut down until
the HT could be retrieved.
The incident spotlights the hazards of allowing a motorized
vehicle free rein. "If patrons are struck with it, this
thing can operate up to 13 mph that's pretty fast
considering a closed subway system," says Keele.
Bob Thomson, an assistant Metro editor at the Post, says the
Segway was merely "incidental" to the story. "If Segway went
out of business tomorrow, the theme of the story would still
exist," says Thomson. "Can a disabled person gain access to
our public transportation system using a new technology?"
CP
Media tips and observations? Send them to Department of
Media at [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM).
http://calendar.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
