EV Digest 3844
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Metal spraying or welding?
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Electric Power Steering (Part Deux)
by "M.G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Electric Power Steering (Part Deux)
by "M.G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: 750w scooter/ now"sub 2k powerful scooter"
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Metal spraying or welding?
by "rwwies" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) spline adapter
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Marketing idea
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Amps and torque (was: Woodburn 2004, My response to Rudman)
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Metal spraying or welding? Thanks all for the Input
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Marketing idea
by keith vansickle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Marketing idea
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: The Solar-Hydrogen Vehicle Has Arrived
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Marketing idea
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: spline adapter
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: The Solar-Hydrogen Vehicle Has Arrived
by Alan Batie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: The Solar-Hydrogen Vehicle Has Arrived OT
by Brad Waddell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Amps and torque (was: Woodburn 2004, My response to Rudman)
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Solved?: 220/110 input/running AC adapt. to brushless fan issue
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Seth,
I had some pictures on my web site,
www.qsl.net/w8rnh
Then I hosed the main page at work when I updated some
links for a contract manf. that needed BLDC
programming files, so half of the links are gone.
Thanks again to Seth for the adaptor, it worked very
well for dyno testing of my BLDC control.
Sorry I don't have the splined pics.
Maybe I'll try and fix this but I've been kind of busy
putting a Zilla 1k in a Sparrow (did I mention these
are really fun to drive?).
Rod
--- Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> One more technique that really works. A cold forged
> adapter.
>
> I used this on my outboard with GE 6.7", and Rod
> Hower did it on his
> motor dyno. I (we) had a female involute spline. So
> I measured the of
> the spline at its smallest. I added some material
> (and told Rod to add
> less for his) and turned a bar to that diameter and
> pressed it in. The
> bar was mild (cold rolled) steel so it deformend
> into the splines. A
> hard alloy would be a bad thing. You want a ductile
> steel for this. You
> should be able to do a similar thing with a piece of
> round stock. Bore
> a hole something like .020 or .030 smaller than the
> OD of the spline.
> Bore the entrance to the bore (a pilot) about .005
> larger than the
> spline OD for 3/8 inch or so to help with line up
> and cram it on. Just
> make sure you push on the armature, not the bearings
> when you press it
> on.
>
> Rod might have pictures of this?
>
> Seth
>
> On Oct 9, 2004, at 12:49 PM, Neon John wrote:
>
> > If it's a spline, the tooth walls will have a
> constant taper. If it
> > is a
> > gear they will be curved.
> >
> > Anyway, A spline-to-shaft adapter is available
> from most any industrial
> > supply outfit. Most of the major power
> transmission companies (Brown,
> > Carling, etc) make them.
> >
> > I've taken two very successful approaches to
> mounting smooth shaft
> > devices
> > to spline shafts. One is to get a pulley or
> whatnot a size smaller and
> > then hand-ream it to fit very tightly on the
> spline. Using a die
> > grinder
> > or other suitable tool, grind flats on the splines
> under the set
> > screws.
> > Apply red loctite to the shaft before sliding the
> pulley on. Tighten
> > securely. The tight fit and loctite keep the
> splines from machining
> > the
> > inside of the pulley while the set screws hold it
> tightly in place.
> >
> > The second approach is to use the split-cone type
> of pulley. This is
> > the
> > type where the pulley is 2 piece. One piece fits
> on the shaft and is
> > tapered. A tapered hole in the pulley matches up.
> Small bolts draw
> > the
> > two together, squeezing the shaft tightly. This
> type of pulley works
> > equally well on solid or splined shafts.
> >
> > I have a homemade genset that I've been running
> for years that
> > contains a
> > mil surplus 10kw spline-driven alternator. This
> thing has several
> > thousand hours on it. The drive is via cog belt
> and split cone
> > pulleys.
> >
> > Plasma spray can be done but I'd expect it to be
> expensive and time
> > consuming. The plasma can't be directed only into
> the valleys so the
> > entire shaft would build up. One would have to
> spray a bit, then
> > machine
> > the tooth buildup off, then spray again. Probably
> 2 times would do
> > it, as
> > the valleys don't have to be filled in all the
> way. I'd expect to pay
> >> $100 for such a job.
> >
> > If I were filling in a spline I'd MIG each groove,
> cooling the shaft
> > completely between grooves. I might even fill the
> back side grooves
> > with
> > welder's heat dissipation putty. I'd use a high
> carbon MIG wire so the
> > surface could be hardened afterward if necessary.
> >
> > Actually, if I was filling in a spline, the very
> first thing I'd try
> > would
> > be one of the high metal content machinable
> epoxies. My local welding
> > shop sells one that behaves almost like aluminum.
> Contronics adhesives
> > (on the web) sells specialty epoxies that behave
> nearly like steel.
> > I'd
> > try that first so that I'd avoid problems with
> heat, specifically,
> > de-heat-treating the shaft.
> >
> > John
> >
> > On Fri, 8 Oct 2004 23:26:03 -0700, "David Chapman"
>
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> I have a # of really powerful small series wound
> motors that would be
> >> very
> >> useful except for the splined output shaft. In
> the past we have had
> >> good
> >> luck grinding the splines off and turning to a
> nominal .500 for use
> >> on a 3
> >> wheel bike and a gokart, but I am looking for a
> beefier stronger
> >> solution
> >> without breaking the bank. BTW, have tried and
> tried to find a spline
> >> pattern that fits and I have had no luck finding
> one off the shelf, I
> >> am
> >> beginning to think this is not a spline but a
> gear cut. Anyway, what
> >> about
> >> disassembling the motor and welding up the
> splines and recutting
> >> them? I
> >> could weld with the arm immersed in water and
> then do some crude
> >> re-heat
> >> treating in-shop. The other idea I have toyed
> with is having the end
> >> of the
> >> arm metal sprayed (havn't checked the cost of
> this lately, could be
> >> prohibitive) to build up the shaft and then recut
> on my lathe. Either
> >> way,
> >> this would net us a slightly over .625 shaft to
> give a little more
> >> material/support for the keyway. Or option #4, am
> I just being over
> >> cautious. These develop 4 hp, int duty and for
> what I have in mind
> >> they
> >> might do a bit more. Comments or input? David
> Chapman.
> >
> > ---
> > John De Armond
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/
> > Cleveland, Occupied TN
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes it is called an accumulator. Check with a local hydraulics shop for
availability.
Mike G.
Don Cameron wrote:
, what if I had a high pressure
reservoir, with a pressure sensor? Similar to a vacuum reservoir, when the
pressure gets too low, the pump would kick in.
Is this a silly idea? Is there even such a thing as a pressure vessel for
hydraulic fluid? Any other ideas?
Any helpful feedback is very much appreciated and I will ensure to put it on
the web page notes.
thanks
Don
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is correct for an accumulator to work properly the hydraulic valve
must be a closed type and most spool valves used in power steering are
open type. There may be a valve assembly available to do this but it
might be too complicated as it would require a check valve and a
pressure regulator.
Mike G.
Jon "Sheer" Pullen wrote:
I was thinking, instead of a encoder setup, what if I had a high pressure
reservoir, with a pressure sensor? Similar to a vacuum reservoir, when
the
pressure gets too low, the pump would kick in.
I don't think this will work quite the way you envision it. At least on my
car, the hydraulic fluid is *always* flowing through the power steering
rack.. it's not like a vacuum pump situation where there's a res that gets
used sometimes and then needs 'refilled'. Maybe this is particular to Hondas
and other cars only have fluid flowing in the rack when they are turning, I
don't know.
S.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If anyone is interested this seems like a good deal. Lawrence
Rhodes.........
I am the person withh the El Chopper for sale. I am selling the original
prototype for $1200 with a 24 volt charger for that price.
Regards,
John Bidwell
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "bidwelldesign" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2004 12:57 AM
Subject: Re: 750w scooter/ now"sub 2k powerful scooter"
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Heat from welding by any process other than electron beam WILL
distort the shaft.Consider using a stainless steel Speedy Sleeve
similar to the type used for automitive crankshaft repair.They are
readily available in sizes ranging from 12MM up to 203MM in
diameter.Splined shaft couplers are also available in standard and
metric sizes from companies like Love Joy,who makes power
transmission products.--- In ev-
[EMAIL PROTECTED], "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I have a # of really powerful small series wound motors that would
be very
> useful except for the splined output shaft. In the past we have had
good
> luck grinding the splines off and turning to a nominal .500 for use
on a 3
> wheel bike and a gokart, but I am looking for a beefier stronger
solution
> without breaking the bank. BTW, have tried and tried to find a
spline
> pattern that fits and I have had no luck finding one off the shelf,
I am
> beginning to think this is not a spline but a gear cut. Anyway,
what about
> disassembling the motor and welding up the splines and recutting
them? I
> could weld with the arm immersed in water and then do some crude re-
heat
> treating in-shop. The other idea I have toyed with is having the
end of the
> arm metal sprayed (havn't checked the cost of this lately, could be
> prohibitive) to build up the shaft and then recut on my lathe.
Either way,
> this would net us a slightly over .625 shaft to give a little more
> material/support for the keyway. Or option #4, am I just being over
> cautious. These develop 4 hp, int duty and for what I have in mind
they
> might do a bit more. Comments or input? David Chapman.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
2 soulutions I have used when doing it elegantly was required or desired.
sometimes it is easier to make the positive
1. Make a copy out of D2, have it heat-treated, then send it to a hob
shop that will hob it into an adapter blank for you.
kinda expensive but can do multiple and the hob process makes a
damn strong surface.
2. Make an undersized copy in graphite (.005-.012 undersize) and have
a shop "burn" it in with an EDM machine
inexpensive, graphite electrode wears during use but I adapted
a power steering shaft from a 72 international to the 56 on a very
one-off 4x4
grind form on wheel, use index fixture to put it around
diameter of graphite, put in EDM and press go.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Maybe we EVangalists have been going about it all wrong.
on the idea of getting in through the back door.:
don't try to get a production EV out there...
don't try to sell a hybrid new car... try to sell electric turbo-charger
as add on to all the young kids who modify their cars. The greatest
american pasttime.
lets make and sell a
"booster" that replaces the rear trailing arm in front wheel drives, has
a small pack and just gives some inncreased milage.
perhaps a clutch to
disengauge over a certain speed or sepex to remove load at cruise?
and a driveline motor,
long and slender in which the driveline is the armature, or maybe a
booster motor on the pumpkin for the RWD's
Victor, how reasonable would an ultracap soulution be if it charged
during stops and aided in acceleration ?
20 seconds charging saving brakes, 3-5 seconds boost, just to get me
up through the gears faster.
I am not looking to start a war here guys, just trying to gauge how many
$ and lbs UC vs hawkers vs LiIon for 3-5 second boosts.
Perhaps a prius or insight battery pack once they hit the wrecking yards
How may of us started with a new car, I don't know about you guys but I
got my parents old car and modified it. It wasn't until my 3rd car that
I bought new.
I know most of us are going with this philosopy in one way already, the
donar + conversion route. It is kinda to bad how the free market system
can work agaist us too. By haing all those battery choices we each by 1
cars worth from each supplier, we don't get the qty discount, the
battery guys do.
All my preaching about eltric motors and how they have great low end
torque has backfired into everyone wanting to add electric to make there
car quicker, but not replace their motor, still it is a fot in the door
:-) .
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2004 12:00 PM
Subject: Re: Amps and torque (was: Woodburn 2004, My response to Rudman)
Geez Bill...
We did all the above...
And then Rod doesn't bother to check the list, and hammers all the amps
he can into the drives.
Pretty soon you stop trying to do it right, and just let the owner Break
it.
I have a log book for GP, it's in the same brief case as my laptop, and the
Zilla programming manual, and the serial cables.
InFact it's right where the Laptop is now. Doing data control on the 36Kw
Monster charger.....
So.....
What else didn't a like..
I wish you would all listen to the story... and Think a little bit
more.
I know darn well the Back drives arc like heck. And at a lot less amps
than you all think.
Rod has scraped the comms, I have scraped the comms we ran them in for
hours with the main controller, I ran 400 miles of street time on them in
July.
They still arc. Either we damaged then or they really are not going to
take 2000 amps and live to tell about it.
It's pretty clear that Joe and I would have gotten to 2000 amp on EACH...
not just both motors ,if we felt that we could push them that far without
damaging them permanantly.
I would KILL to have the torque and amp numbers all the way up to 2000 amps.
And Bill we were using the DAQ4 function and on the Zilla an recording
it with my laptop. So... we had Gs files and Amp files, and a delayed RPM of
sorts from the tach feeds to the Zilla.
So....We had just about all the data collection gear on board we had at the
time.
> It is important to have checklists for serious racing. You need
> one for packing. You need one for setting up the vehicle. You need one for
> the end of the race day. A checklist is free. All it takes is an hour or
so
> to write and it often makes the difference between success and a dismal
> failure.
>
> _ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
> \'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> =(___)=
> U
> Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
>
And Bill you are absolutley right on the log books and checklists.
I have one for the Charger product line.
I have more power runs to do on the Monster charger... and I have a list of
notes to get to My Engineer.
Gotta go, I am still working this week.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Reply comments inserted.
BTW, thanks to all who responded. Great dialog and ideas. David Chapman.
From: "Neon John"
> If it's a spline, the tooth walls will have a constant taper. If it is a
> gear they will be curved.
Upon close inspection I still honestly can't tell for sure but I lean
towards it being a gear cut. With this small a shaft it wouldn't have much
anyway, which makes me feel better about my eyesight. Also would explain why
I havn't been able to find an off the rack spline adapter (my first choice).
See next.
> Anyway, A spline-to-shaft adapter is available from most any industrial
> supply outfit. Most of the major power transmission companies (Brown,
Carling, etc) make them.
I have had a fairly extensive dialog with an engineer from Lovejoy who took
an interest in my project. He was not able to find a match from anything in
their inventory of patterns or referances. His last comment was that he
thinks its a gear rather than a spline. All things considered, I agree.
> I've taken two very successful approaches to mounting smooth shaft devices
> to spline shafts. One is to get a pulley or whatnot a size smaller and
> then hand-ream it to fit very tightly on the spline. Using a die grinder
> or other suitable tool, grind flats on the splines under the set screws.
> Apply red loctite to the shaft before sliding the pulley on. Tighten
> securely. The tight fit and loctite keep the splines from machining the
> inside of the pulley while the set screws hold it tightly in place.
>
> The second approach is to use the split-cone type of pulley. This is the
> type where the pulley is 2 piece. One piece fits on the shaft and is
> tapered. A tapered hole in the pulley matches up. Small bolts draw the
> two together, squeezing the shaft tightly. This type of pulley works
> equally well on solid or splined shafts.
> I have a homemade genset that I've been running for years that contains >a
mil surplus 10kw spline-driven alternator. This thing has several
> thousand hours on it. The drive is via cog belt and split cone pulleys.
Certainly worth consideration, maybe a little bit bulky and complex.
> Plasma spray can be done but I'd expect it to be expensive and time
> consuming. <snip> I'd expect to pay
>$100 for such a job.
Yep, seems to be the consensus and is beyond the budget scope of this usage.
.
> If I were filling in a spline I'd MIG each groove, cooling the shaft
> completely between grooves. I might even fill the back side grooves >with
welder's heat dissipation putty. I'd use a high carbon MIG wire so >the
surface could be hardened afterward if necessary.
Good idea and is one I am considering as I can handle entire job in shop. I
am kinda worried about warping the shaft and heat treat issues.
> Actually, if I was filling in a spline, the very first thing I'd try would
> be one of the high metal content machinable epoxies. My local welding
> shop sells one that behaves almost like aluminum. Contronics >adhesives
(on the web) sells specialty epoxies that behave nearly like >steel. I'd
try that first so that I'd avoid problems with heat, specifically,
> de-heat-treating the shaft.
> John
I had thought of doing just that with JB weld and then felt the JB might be
too soft. After weighing all the great ideas being tossed around, I do think
this might just be about the best solution for me, depending on what I can
find on the web regarding the properties and availability of the high metal
content epoxies. Might be able to combine this with a slight interferance
fit on the sprocket and cross pinning for a good quality reliable low cost
solution. I will let y`all know how it turns out.
Thanks again to all that took the time to respond. David Chapman.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I agree. I think a couple of 9" dc motors and a z2k
hooked in line with the transfer case on a gas hog 4x4
with a 240v battery pack to boost both performance and
mileage. hey these monster trucks cost 40 to 50 k and
only get about 10mpg surely some one on this list
could put together a 0 to 30 rocket add on package
that uses all the extra hp these monsters produce to
re charge the pack for the next thrust off the line.
it really does not matter too much what it costs as
the people that drive these machines will pay almost
anything to go faster than their buddies. go to
glamus and look at the 70,000 to 100,000 dune buggies
that only have a 4 gal gas tank and make only a couple
runs on that. all anyone has to do is build a machine
that goes faster than anyone elses and there will be a
market. most people won't worry about the environment
or fule economy untill gas gets to 10.00 a gal look at
europe and most of the rest of the world where gas is
already 5 bucks a gal and they still don't have
electrics. their solution diesels. BEV's are
interesting and economical but unless they can be made
to go faster be more exotic or give their owners more
prestiege they just won't catch on
--- Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Maybe we EVangalists have been going about it all
> wrong.
>
> on the idea of getting in through the back door.:
> don't try to get a production EV out there...
> don't try to sell a hybrid new car... try to sell
> electric turbo-charger
> as add on to all the young kids who modify their
> cars. The greatest
> american pasttime.
>
> lets make and sell a
> "booster" that replaces the rear trailing arm in
> front wheel drives, has
> a small pack and just gives some inncreased milage.
>
> perhaps a clutch to
> disengauge over a certain speed or sepex to remove
> load at cruise?
>
> and a driveline motor,
> long and slender in which the driveline is the
> armature, or maybe a
> booster motor on the pumpkin for the RWD's
>
> Victor, how reasonable would an ultracap soulution
> be if it charged
> during stops and aided in acceleration ?
> 20 seconds charging saving brakes, 3-5 seconds
> boost, just to get me
> up through the gears faster.
> I am not looking to start a war here guys, just
> trying to gauge how many
> $ and lbs UC vs hawkers vs LiIon for 3-5 second
> boosts.
> Perhaps a prius or insight battery pack once they
> hit the wrecking yards
>
>
> How may of us started with a new car, I don't know
> about you guys but I
> got my parents old car and modified it. It wasn't
> until my 3rd car that
> I bought new.
> I know most of us are going with this philosopy in
> one way already, the
> donar + conversion route. It is kinda to bad how the
> free market system
> can work agaist us too. By haing all those battery
> choices we each by 1
> cars worth from each supplier, we don't get the qty
> discount, the
> battery guys do.
>
> All my preaching about eltric motors and how they
> have great low end
> torque has backfired into everyone wanting to add
> electric to make there
> car quicker, but not replace their motor, still it
> is a fot in the door
> :-) .
>
>
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "keith vansickle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2004 9:47 PM
Subject: Re: Marketing idea
> I agree. I think a couple of 9" dc motors and a z2k
> hooked in line with the transfer case on a gas hog 4x4
> with a 240v battery pack to boost both performance and
> mileage. hey these monster trucks cost 40 to 50 k and
> only get about 10mpg surely some one on this list
> could put together a 0 to 30 rocket add on package
> that uses all the extra hp these monsters produce to
> re charge the pack for the next thrust off the line.
> it really does not matter too much what it costs as
> the people that drive these machines will pay almost
> anything to go faster than their buddies. go to
> glamus and look at the 70,000 to 100,000 dune buggies
> that only have a 4 gal gas tank and make only a couple
> runs on that. all anyone has to do is build a machine
> that goes faster than anyone elses and there will be a
> market. most people won't worry about the environment
> or fule economy untill gas gets to 10.00 a gal look at
> europe and most of the rest of the world where gas is
> already 5 bucks a gal and they still don't have
> electrics. their solution diesels. BEV's are
> interesting and economical but unless they can be made
> to go faster be more exotic or give their owners more
> prestiege they just won't catch on
> --- Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
Cool some of us High amp EVers are going that way.
Most dune Buggies are not street legal.
We can make high power street EVs legal and fun.
Note the amount of Shredded rubber the I proudly display down the side if
Goldie.
Wanna mess with this Punk????
You CAN have your Ev environmental Clean Car and a few 100s of Kw or force
to play with.
It's Really hard to get a Joe Sixpack Big Pickem' up out of his Rig and
stick him in a EconoBox. In Fact you can't do it!. He will walk first!
But slide up to him and leave him in a cloud of tire smoke, and he's
gonna come over and ask questions, and maybe Buy ya a Beer!.
This happens daily for me since there is a crowd of Electricians
hovering around my shop at quitting time. Blowers, Jacked up Fuds and
CheBBies, A Hemi or two, the Bosses 6.6 Duramax... All have respect for that
Shit Box Fiesta that can lay rubber out of sight!!!
God I am Lovin' it.
The monster charger Lives... and it's under PC control. Graphical charge
tracing, programmable settings, the works. I have a new toy to play with.
The code is in Mbasic. Rather simple coding, but there's over 2000 lines of
it.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hmmm 1.5 miles. If they used batteries for storage they might get 3 to 6
miles instead. Lawrence Rhodes.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Dekker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV world" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: "Electrifying Times" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "EV SJS"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2004 11:19 AM
Subject: The Solar-Hydrogen Vehicle Has Arrived
> Not usually a fan of H2 but this is neat.
> High school? How embarrassing to the GMs of the world.
>
> http://www.fuelcellsworks.com/Supppage1259.html
>
> "For anybody curious about alternative energy sources, the Solar-Hydrogen
Transportation
> Vehicle built by the E-Tech club at Central High School in Phoenix,
Arizona is just too
> cool to pass up."
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>Maybe we EVangalists have been going about it all
>wrong.
I don't think their ideas and goals(short and long term) are
wrong, but in my opinion their approach could use some
modifications.
>on the idea of getting in through the back door.:
>don't try to get a production EV out there...
>don't try to sell a hybrid new car... try to sell
>electric turbo-charger
>as add on to all the young kids who modify their
>cars. The greatest
>american pasttime.
Someone posted about this a while back. It's called "The
Electrocharger", by Alpha Male Performance. I haven't seen
anyone test it yet to see if it's all marketing BS, or if
it's the real McCoy.
http://www.semaphotos.com/perfstreet.html
My main concern would be the life/durability of that battery
pack under frequent use, if it does indeed offer a > 25%
power boost.
Great concept. If they turn out to actually work and last, I
may add one to my gasser, if I don't take out it's ICE and
somehow manage to shoehorn a monster diesel into it and run
it on veggie oil first.
Too bad their site's been down for a while.
>How may of us started with a new car, I don't know
>about you guys but I
>got my parents old car and modified it. It wasn't
>until my 3rd car that
>I bought new.
I have no intention of ever buying new, although those
reasons may be considered somewhat political in nature, and
thus won't be discussed on this list. Of course, another
large factor is the sheer joy of even the thought building
your own car or restoring/converting a classic to run on
alternative fuels.
As for how the Evangelists should approach this, I think the
very things they say do indeed merit attention. The American
Lung Association has conducted a study showing that air
pollution in this country is responsible for at least 50,000
premature deaths per year. A significant portion(>25%,
higher depending on source cited) of that pollution is from
automobile exhaust. Studies are certainly not always
accurate, and often are funded/manipulated by think tanks to
achieve a desired result, but just go into any large city
during the summer months, and you will see that there is
quite a problem. The air quality is horrible. An EV, even
from a coal fired plant, would not only displace this
pollution from its point of operation in the cities, but
worst case scenario may match the pollution of cars on the
road today, although likely reduce it. Then there is the
possibility of global warming and the implications global
climate change may have on our planet.
The problem is that scare stories(Whether they are composed
of researched and actual data, or myth) don't work, nor does
everyone agree with the points surrounding them. People like
Wayland have the right idea, even if we may(perhaps?)
disagree on the issues. People want to go fast, including
myself. EVs now are showing plenty of potential in this
area, with Cocconi's TZero, Wilde's Maniac Mazda or
Wayland's White Zombie being able to out-drag or at least
match this country's fastest stock production cars, like the
Dodge Viper or Chevrolet Corvette. 15 years ago? One
probably wouldn't even think of attempting this.
I remember reading a wired.com article quoting Wayland, with
him stating that the market for EVs(at the date of
publication) is in cars able to be used for local trips, in
a spirited manner with the capability to go faster than
anything else it might encounter on the road, along with the
characteristic of being affordable by what some of you old
farts on this list would consider young kids. =p He
mentioned the automakers were taking the wrong approach,
that they were doing low-volume vehicles using low-volume
parts and expensive composites in an effort to keep range
high. Assuming in mass production they'd still be
exponentially more expensive than a competitive car(Ha
ha...), this would surely be a stupid approach. However, at
the date of that article, the technology existed to make
wickedly fast EVs, powerful enough to compete with sports
cars that might be double their price. They'd have likely
sold. Lo and behold, come 2004, it looks like the battery
technology for range and affordability has come but is going
rather unused, although the viability and affordability in
mass production is debatable.
I think the current approach needed is for people to get
their own Blue Meanies on the road. Whatever forces are
keeping long range and affordable EVs out of consumer hands,
whether they are claimed to be political, technological, or
both, the fact remains that people won't know about them
unless they see them, won't want them unless they lack the
undesired qualities you'd find in a typical sh*tbox, and
won't even bother giving them a second thought unless they
saw the benefits of reduced cost of transportation. As much
as I might care about environmental sustainability, I don't
think the public does much. The public wants power, muscle,
size, burning rubber, speed, and phallic symbols. But there
is no nationwide dealership where you could drive an
electric vehicle of that sort right off the lot. None.
Because not enough people are personally demanding them, and
even if they did, the auto monopolies probably wouldn't
provide them anyway if it meant less profit. A mandate
clearly won't happen at this stage in the game.
People are going to have to build their own, or a small
manufacturer is going to need to get some business in the
sub $25,000 market range. The way to do this is through
catering to three groups, speed freaks, environmentalists,
and people who want to drive a new car as cheaply as
possible with as little maintenance as possible all within
the same car. If it has a real world 50 mile range, can go
from 0-60 in < 5 seconds, top out at 100+, and costs <
$25,000, it may have some sales. The parts surely wouldn't
be more than $13k, the rest could go to a donor car, labor,
and a small profit margin of about $3-4k. Don't have any
compromises. Don't use floodies, use sealed. Use a charger
setup where the car can be left charging unnattended. Have
heating, a decent sound system, power everything, ect. A
'grown children's sports car', as much as I like them for
their lack of practicality and rediculously small size,
probably wouldn't do the trick for sales unlike, say, an
actual car that can seat 4 comfortably such as a Toyota
Prius or Dodge Neon. A sport-compact would have to be it,
only problem is weight, but since it's not an ICE car, all
that sound deadener crap and trim could be reduced to cut
down on weight since you have less noise to deal with.
Something around 2,700-2,900 pounds with batteries would be
a great target. A musclecar would even be better, but that
would be well out of affordable price range, but one could
dream of an electric Plymouth Fury or Ford Talladega(Would
REALLY get people interested). Advertise its selling points,
ease of operation, no maintenance, long life, lower cost per
mile over lifetime of car, stunning acceleration capability,
the fact that it can be upgraded as technology evolves, ect.
I know cheap EV sports cars have been done before. Look at
Green Motor Works(Gone now, offered Porsche Spyder replicas
for < $30k that could compete with Miatas), or Universal
Electric Vehicles(Not yet producing). Problem is, they are
tiny sports cars that are based on kits or from the ground
up, which people aren't really looking for. I don't know of
anyone that has ever tried selling EV conversions that take
after Blue Meanie in characteristics. I think that idea
would really make some headway. Once some decent revenue is
generated, maybe mass production could be done and a volume
large enough to put in affordable lithium packs could be
achieved? AC Propulsion's approach with its Scions, as ugly
as they are, is a great step forward, but their drivetrain
is so damned expensive and well out of affordable price
range for most people. I wouldn't pay 40 large or more for a
Scion xB, no way. Something for < $25k needs to be done,
with performance to match cars triple its price. This would
entail using things off the shelf, DC motors, sealed lead
acid batteries, ect.
Of course, as they say, opinions are like assholes, and I'm
probably just a 19 year old talking out my ass. Just
throwing partially repeated ideas around, however viable or
not they may be.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
For my electric boat ( http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/492.html ), I've made
splineshaft adapters for coupling ADC 6.75inch and ETEK motors' 7/8inch
keyway shaft to marine outboard motor splines. I've done it 2 ways:
1) Create a female spline using Devcon Titanium Putty inside half of a
standard 7/8inch coupler. It's tricky, and the spline rarely comes out
perfect, but it does work, for awhile at least. I've shredded the resulting
splines when I used Loctite ColdWeld or JBWeld. The last one I made
w/Devcon Titanium Putty didn't shred, but then I hadn't run it long at 4-6HP
before hearing of a better strategy (see (2) below). This coupler only can
handle limited torque/heat/jerk episodes before the coupler shreds
itself----but it is cheap---It got me on the water for several months and
for under $20/coupler. This wouldn't work for a road EV where torques and
HP are far greater.
2) Marine outboard motors have splines at BOTH ends of their drive shafts.
Often (perhaps always?) these splines are identical in size and spline
number at each end. This is handy because it means you can pick up a used
lower unit pinion gear, grind it down to 7/8inch diameter, slather it with
high strength epoxy and shove it half way down a 7/8inch
coupler---voila---instant coupler for under $100. This coupler is VERY
strong. For higher torques, it would pay to have the spline portion welded
to the keyway coupler portion---in my case, why bother when high strength
epoxies excel.
-Myles Twete
Electric "Reach of Tide": http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/492.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sat, Oct 09, 2004 at 11:19:44AM -0700, Lee Dekker wrote:
> Not usually a fan of H2 but this is neat.
> High school? How embarrassing to the GMs of the world.
Unfortunately not very embarrassing with a 1.5 mile per day range.
Building an H2 ICE is no big deal. Storing the hydrogen and building
a hydrogen distribution network is the big deal.
--
Alan Batie ______ alan.batie.org Me
alan at batie.org \ / www.qrd.org The Triangle
PGPFP DE 3C 29 17 C0 49 7A \ / www.pgpi.com The Weird Numbers
27 40 A5 3C 37 4A DA 52 B9 \/ spamassassin.taint.org NO SPAM!
This fall, we have the choice between a police state and a nanny state.
Both want most of our money and liberty, but the liberties one will take
are a lot more severe than the other...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Has anyone evaluated the various patents for generating
hydrogen/oxygen gas from water using a resonant frequency pulse of
electricity? I have seen several lately, is there some flaw in them
that makes them unworkable? Here are some examples, would appreciate
the feedback on the technical issues. Please reply private if this is
off topic.
http://www.rexresearch.com/meyerhy/meyerhy.htm
http://www.theverylastpageoftheinternet.com/forsale/plans/tapwaterengine/tapwater.htm
http://www.loompanics.com/cgi-local/SoftCart.exe/cgi-local/smpagegen.exe?U+scstore+dwfc1077ffdbbddb+-c+scstore.cfg+-p+14132
http://www.fuellesspower.com/water2.htm
http://www.earth-house.com/Offgrid_Answers/Xogen/xogen.html
http://www.free-energy.cc/electrolysis.html
--
Brad - voice mail: 703-935-7647
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
First off I want to let you all know that I do appreciate all the hard work
and effort Rich has put into "Gone Postal" and the "Suck Amps EV Racing
Team". He has done a great deal for the sport of electric drag racing and
has added a lot of color to it. The main problem is that we have two
different approaches to a problem and two different ways of resolving it.
Now back to giving him a bad time. This whole thing about stone damaged coms
being the problem and other such crap is just that.We have just put up a new
section on suckamps.com under projects with the subtitle Woodburn Nationals
2004. Here is the direct link:
http://www.suckamps.com/index.php?page=woodburn_2004 You can all view the
brushes for yourself. There are several very tiny groove lines that Rich
refers to as com bar stone damage. He may have forgotten that we pulled the
end bells and polished the coms with emery cloth.They look great from all
the different ones I've seen. Oat posted some of his a while back. I'm not
quite sure what is causing the front pitting but you can clearly see how
smooth the rear brush is up to the arc line. The arc line is very minimal.
With 2000 amps you will get up to 50% arc line. I will say this once again.
"Gone Postal" launches much harder with the full 2000 amps being crammed
through the motors. This is racing. I will live with the minor brush damage.
This does not destroy the motors. Ask Oat. The duty cycle is far too short
for that. Speaking of duty cycle. Here is another example of how differently
we look at things. When Joe and Rich were doing their testing on the rear
motors they turned off the front drive. This left the rear motors to do all
the work themselves trying to accelerate two tons plus off mass. No wonder
they smelled! They didn't see the big picture in their partial scientific
approach. Take away half your power on your gas car and see how much it
increases load strain and temperature. It's like half your cylinders still
trying to accelerate the same mass.
The time slips are also up on the same link. It was Oat's recommendation
that we try a third gear launch. The 60 foot time wasn't quite as good as I
would like to see but the rear motors weren't pushing very hard. The third
gear launch did give us 0 to 80 mph in the eighth which is quite respectable
for a two ton plus brick. Sometimes I think we should rename it "The Brick"
:-) Any large block and mortar companies out there want to sponsor a world
record setting brick? One last statement for Rich. As Dennis said: "The
proof is in the time slips." As for me, I will still press the limits and
keep sucking amps.
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2004 7:17 PM
Subject: Re: Amps and torque (was: Woodburn 2004, My response to Rudman)
----- Original Message -----
From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2004 12:00 PM
Subject: Re: Amps and torque (was: Woodburn 2004, My response to Rudman)
Geez Bill...
We did all the above...
And then Rod doesn't bother to check the list, and hammers all the amps
he can into the drives.
Pretty soon you stop trying to do it right, and just let the owner
Break
it.
I have a log book for GP, it's in the same brief case as my laptop, and
the
Zilla programming manual, and the serial cables.
InFact it's right where the Laptop is now. Doing data control on the 36Kw
Monster charger.....
So.....
What else didn't a like..
I wish you would all listen to the story... and Think a little bit
more.
I know darn well the Back drives arc like heck. And at a lot less amps
than you all think.
Rod has scraped the comms, I have scraped the comms we ran them in for
hours with the main controller, I ran 400 miles of street time on them in
July.
They still arc. Either we damaged then or they really are not going to
take 2000 amps and live to tell about it.
It's pretty clear that Joe and I would have gotten to 2000 amp on EACH...
not just both motors ,if we felt that we could push them that far without
damaging them permanantly.
I would KILL to have the torque and amp numbers all the way up to 2000
amps.
And Bill we were using the DAQ4 function and on the Zilla an recording
it with my laptop. So... we had Gs files and Amp files, and a delayed RPM
of
sorts from the tach feeds to the Zilla.
So....We had just about all the data collection gear on board we had at
the
time.
It is important to have checklists for serious racing. You need
one for packing. You need one for setting up the vehicle. You need one
for
the end of the race day. A checklist is free. All it takes is an hour or
so
to write and it often makes the difference between success and a dismal
failure.
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
And Bill you are absolutley right on the log books and checklists.
I have one for the Charger product line.
I have more power runs to do on the Monster charger... and I have a list
of
notes to get to My Engineer.
Gotta go, I am still working this week.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Since I moved the aux battery for the car to the trunk
of the vehicle, I decided to have a small microswitch
where I plugged in the car. I simply hit the switch
as I plug in the car, and the fan turns on. While
this is a drain on the aux batt., it is a small load
(500 mA or so), and I don't anticipate draining the
batt. too far. I may even build a timer circuit to
time out the fan after 10 hrs. or so.
At this point, I want to K.I.S.S.
=====
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel? Are you
saving any gas for your kids?
_______________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today!
http://vote.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
